Electirc Guitar LIVE

[custom24]

I'm at wits end here. I play guitar regularly at church and they're thinking of making people switch to Pods. I'm an experienced engineer and the main problem I see is the volunteer status of our "engineers". We run an in-ear system and my guitar always sounds great. We have some REALLY talented people playing here who are switching to Pods because their guitar sounds terrible in their ears. I KNOW it's because it's being captured poorly. I'm a recording engineer for a living and I know how to capture guitar and I'm generally pleased with the way it sounds. However, I don't pretend to know anything about live sound. That's why I play guitar and not run FOH or monitors.

I guess what I'm asking is, is there any difference in mic'ing amps live as apposed to the studio? I know there is but in terms of placement I guess. ANY thoughts on how to make the guitars and amps sound great in our players ears would be greatly appreciated.

*Disclaimer* - Yes, these are GREAT players and have AMAZING guitars/amps. Vintage les pauls, tele's. Amps are Matchless, Orange, Vintage Fender, etc... I'm 99% you guys are gonna say is "Get a real engineer". That's pretty much what I'm resigning to, but I'm just curious if there is any tips/suggestions on how to make guitar in our ears sound great. Thanks.

[Energie]

you know a pod or some other direct system probally won't sound that great in ears either. Its been my experience, whether a mic'd cab, or a direct solution, guitar just doesn't sound completly correct in an in ear / ear bud type of situation. So I don't think pods is the final answer. I mean either can sound decent, but at least with the headphones / ear buds I have tried, its always lacking. I personally do NOT like in ears when playing live anyway one bit when it comes to sound / feel.

Try experimenting with better mics maybe? what are you guys using on your cabs? perhaps picking up better mics, more condenser like mics would be the ticket to a better in ear sound on your cabs......

[BLUElightCory]

How are the cabs being mic'd up? And what is it about the guitar tones that your bandmates and/or the sound staff aren't liking?

If the player and the gear are good to go, I'd HAVE to guess that better mic placement would make a huge improvement.

Also, make sure the sound staff aren't butchering the guitar tones with a ton of EQ or anything like that. A great guitar tone shouldn't need anything more than a single mic, placed well, and maybe a HPF to get rid of excess low end from proximity effect, stage resonance, etc.

P.S. I'm definitely in agreement that guitar amps rarely sound "right" in in-ear monitors. Players are used to hearing the cabinet from ear level at a bit of a distance. Sticking a close-mic'd tone directly into the ear is ALWAYS going to seem strange at first to anyone who's been playing for any length of time.

[custom24]

The mic placement is fine. i place mine based on what i normally do in the studio and i'll move it if it's not happening. as far as mics go, just 57's. I was wondering about the condensers, any suggestions there? In the studio i use royer 121, 57, 421, etc.. i'm thinking it might just be what you guys are saying about guitar not sounding right in ears anyway.

[travisbrown]

I've been in the same situation. Church sound, in-ears, PODs vs. Amps.

For church sound, which typically isn't set up for the rock and roll, stage volume is a big complaint for everyone except the musicians. Also, often all the sound is run through a centre cluster set up for public address rather than LR or LRC speaker setup, so you get dudes rocking out on stage and all the sound coming from 30' above them (except the drums which come from stage left louder than everything else). Also all the bass is usually attenuated out. Volunteer "sound guys" are another drawback. A music director I used to play for always said, "use amateurs, you get amateur results." I have come across some excellent sound engineers in churches, but usually they are pros who volunteer and know how to get the best out of what they are working with.

PODs can sound great for live. Though, any way you use them, you need to spend a lot of time tweaking them. Once you figure that out, there is nothing wrong with them. I used a L6 XT Live for a couple years and was happy with it. Sure makes setup and teardown easy.

As far as amps go, I usually used them tilted up towards me as a stage monitor for that little bit of feedback, or way off stage left and isolated (depending on the set and the particular stage setup). I'd always use something around 1x12"/30 watts, but you typically need a powersoak.

Micing - well, it's always a 57 off axis or a 509 hanging down in front of the grill cloth. That's just my preference. Never liked LDCs on guitar cabs.

So as far as your dilemma goes - PODs can easily make everything sound really, really bad unless you dedicate some time to finding the right settings. Amps are always a little easier to get good sound out of quickly. It's pretty hard to mic an amp "wrong" in this setting. There are really two choices to make: on axis or off axis, and distance. Keep it simple - none of those nuances from mic trickery will get translated in that setting anyways.

And don't let the FOH guys do any filtering on the guitar channels except a 80hz rolloff (unless they know what they are doing). Often the FOH channel tends to get all scooped out with a bump for the high mids which makes everything fizzy. This is after padding every channel. There's an inexplicable fear of thick sound in churches.

[Energie]

Originally Posted by custom24

The mic placement is fine. i place mine based on what i normally do in the studio and i'll move it if it's not happening. as far as mics go, just 57's. I was wondering about the condensers, any suggestions there? In the studio i use royer 121, 57, 421, etc.. i'm thinking it might just be what you guys are saying about guitar not sounding right in ears anyway.

We get pretty loud at our church, though I am conscious of my stage volume, and balance it out with everything else. our sound guy is great, he brings all his own mics, lots to choose from, and we experiment with stuff lots, condensers, dynamics.... but a 421, or heil pr 30 or 40 will sound better in your cans. A 57 can sound aight, but I never really love just a single 57 for anything I do. We stereo mic my cab. The peeps at teh board usually are doing some sort of eqing. I came out and listening to one of the guitars, and they really rolled off too much of the low end in house and some other eq, sounded much thinner then it shoudl have. simply rolling off just a little will do, and if needed some top end.

Direct guitar, or amp, it WILL sound different stuck right in your ear, we are used to hearing polished, mixed, mastered tracks in our headphones, get the raw playing close up in your ears, it will more then likely not sound nearly as good as we would like it to be... better in ears will help.

I personally do not like going to play at churches where they are all weird about guitar amps, and use all direct systems, such a crutch. I don't care if its a small place or not, a guitar amp can and will work.

[custom24]

Yeah, the people I'm talking about all have the sensophonics custom molds. The kind dave matthews uses. They're really great. I think I'm gonna try multiple mics, maybe a 57 and a TLM 103 or maybe an 87. Maybe my Soundelux U95 might sound nice, who knows. Not sure there. I'd love to get one of the new Royer Live 122's but those are skyrocketing in price!! $1700 now. I bought my 121's for $1200 a pop. Thanks for the suggestions there guys. It's awesome.