Mixing Drums

[ixnys]

It seems when I listen to rock like Rage Against The Machine, Incubus, Linkin Park, Nirvana, etc. the cymbals and hat seem low in the mix, even the snare sometimes, yet it all works with the song. Everything sounds balanced and glued together. The mix sounds condensed and small yet big.

Whenever I mix my songs it seems like my drums in general have too much dynamics. In essence they sound too much like a real drum kit. Everything comes through; all my snare and kick hits are consistent. I think the drums need to be compressed yet not sound squashed.

I've got this song that just using the kick, overheads, and room, the drums sound great. Everything puches through. However even when I balance the drums, guitars, bass, and vox, the mix still doesn't feel glued together like the rock mixes of my favorite bands. It seems like my cymbals (Ride,Hat,Crashes) are too bright for the guitars. However when I lo-pass or cut down on the higher frequencies, they sound too dull.

I've been trying automation and compression on the overheads, but still haven't been successful getting a glued mix.

I know I must have sounded really confusing but basically what I'm asking is how do you treat your drums to get a glued together drum mix within the song. How much automation do you write for the overheads and what things do you automate?. Do you use compression or limiting? How do you EQ the overheads? How much do you compress the kick? How do you EQ it?

So let's just make this thread all about drum mixing in general covering automation, compression, EQing, balancing, panning, etc.

[PaRaNoId]

I normally mult the overheads and compress the hell out of one, and leave the other intact. I also use tons of compression on most of the other drums, now that i think about it...There is way too much involved to give a complete answer to this one but here are some ideas.

-hi-pass the OH at about 250hz-1khzhz and add 3-7db at about 12.5k.
-create a subgroup for the snare, kick and tom tracks and squash the absolute hell out of it. Something over a 10:1 ratio with fast to medium attack and release times. Then EQ this subgroup until it is as mean and nasty as you can stand. Blend this subgroup into the mix and then send a little OH into the subgroup.

Just a starting point. Life's about breaking the rules.

[TYY]

I know exactly what the OP is talking about. I face the same issues with my mixes. I have a tough time getting the drums to melt with the mix. To reiterate- they sound too dynamic, but compressing them seems to give me nothing but horrible hihat overload and cymbal wash. Am I setting my drum group compressor incorrectly, or should I be using parallel compression?

Perhaps paranoid's recommendation about keeping the OHs out of the drum group would help, but the OH's are a big part of my drum sound.

[ixnys]

I'm familiar with NY compression. Good for getting drums to sound aggressive. I think most of my problems have to do with the overheads though despite the fact they sound good on their own.

[CorkyTart]

A lot of those bands also sample the hell out of their drums. I know you didn't cite Metallica, but from what I understand, there were up to six samples on each drum to create that sound on the black album.

[ixnys]

I was listening to some Rage Against The Machine in the car and the hi-hat was so soft sounding. It worked well. So is it a studio thing to play the hi-hat especially lightly or is it the mixing/automation of the hi-hat to make it not overpower the song?

[mixermarkb]

not to sound like a jerk...

but it starts with the player, in the room, and then goes to tracking...

mixing is only a small part.

A good drummer, who plays the kit BALANCED, with more drums, less brass, in a decent room, with enough ceiling height to let the kit breathe, is the ONLY way to get drums to sound like a record, IMO. If you don't start there, some sort of layering of samples on the real drums may help... never worked all that well for me, but seems to work for most of the big mix engineers when they have to polish up less than well tracked drums.

so...

here's what works for me.

Good player, who hits the drums harder then the cymbals.

Good kit in a good room (DW, Gretsch, etc... 10' ceilings is the minimum for me YMMV, wood is your friend)

Thinner, faster cymbals (think K. Zildjain dark crashes instead of Z customs)

Good mics...

try a pair of large diaprahgm condensers or ribbons in an XY or ORTF somwhere between the drummers head and the kit, looking more at toms then at cymbals, high enough to be out of stick range... C-414, 4050, U-87, beyer M-160... whatever works for the room, kit, and budget.

kick mic of choice- several will work, 421, D-112, M-88, E-609, pick whatever works for the drum and your budget

57 on the snare, 421's on the toms are the old standbys... lots of choices can work here too

something for the room... ribbons are fun in most rooms

don't forget the phase/polarity button as you go to tape/drive.

MAKE THE DRUMMER BALANCE HIMSELF!!!!

If you dont have a good picture of the kit in the overheads, toms not loud enough, cymbals too bright, move the mics around, change cymbals or PLAY THE DRUMS HARDER!!!!

If you have done all this, some NY style buss compression,with something fun like an 1176 or Distressor and some EQ to take the and tubbiness out of the close mics should get you there. The key is what you capture with the overheads... if you didn't get a good mix of drums and cymbals there, you are just making something that is broken DIFFERENT, but at the end of the day, still broken.

My opinion... your mileage may vary

Mark Burris

[norman_nomad]

Hey Ixnys,

Can you post any samples? It might be easier to figure out what's going on, and why your mixes don't gel.

Recently I've been:

Running a Master Drum buss with a UAD Pultec and UAD Plate 140 which then gets spit out to my SSL stereo comp.

I also set up auxes for the snare, toms and kick which then get treated small amounts of eq and compression as necessary. I've been using small doses of Dominion (free VST plug) which is a great transient designer.

Room makes a huge diff.

I sometimes use parallel compression. I sometimes mult snare and kick. I sometimes use samples to augment or replace depending on the song and the quality of the recorded sound.

Again, samples would be cool!

[mixermarkb]

and it shouldn't be just a studio thing to play the hats at the right volume, as a guy who has spent his fair share of time dealing with keeping hats and cymbals out of honorary overheads 1, 2, and 3 (the front line vocal mics) on live gigs, drummers who can keep the kit balanced make for a great live PA mix too...

[Jules]

You might be hankering after the sound of SSL buss compression on drums...

Try renting an SSL compressor - slamming all your close mic's into it (all the compression will bring up your cymbals) then feeding a tiny bit more of the actual overheads themselves to bring up the overhead level a tad..

The SSL compressor ads a lot of 'last' / sustain to cymbals - and of course knocks down the dynamics..

[Drumsound]

I think a parallel comp on the drums really helps them sit in a mix. I like a pretty fast attack and release so that the attack mostly comes from the 'regular' drums and the sustain comes from the compressed sub. Sometimes certain elements need to be taken out of the sub-mix. Try to get the drummer to play the cymbals lighter, especially the HH. Don't use a HH mic. Get some room sound. If you room is not great put a mic facing the SD about waist high and 3-4 feet back. It's not too roomy then but it will add some breath to the drums. A 'trash' mic can add a lot when added a little.

Also, don't use the SOLO button while mixing and do you mix with everything up. If you start with drums, have all the other elements at lease half way to where they might be. Part of mixing is how things work together. Sometimes any given part of a mix will sound like dog shit in solo, but do its thing perfectly in context.

Are you going to Tape Op Con in New Orleans? I'm going to be on the drum recording panel/session and I'm hoping all or most of things (and other subjects) will be covered. They are setting up a "Potluck Studio" so there will actually be recording done at the conference this year. The drum recording session is the longest of the sessions, including the mixing session.

[Jax]

Hi patrox,

Could you be a little more cryptic and vague, please?

C'mon, just for meeee..

[jho]

Originally Posted by patrox247

Here is a hint. Think about why cymbles would have to be low in a mix.
Think about why the panning of the cymbles is so incredibly specific.
Learn to hear the difference between the natural method and the perfect method.
Listen to a Thrice albulm. Why is there no real ambiance?
How can a 23 yr old Kid be so much more solid of a drummer than Neil Pert?
Would we allow the natural performance of a kid in their early 20's to be featured on a record we are trying to market to 20 million plus people?

[bobby yarrow]

I understand what you're asking for sure. If you're getting a good, natural drum sound, I think you can get the rest of the way home with mixing. For my part, I always mix to a natural sound when I'm editing, and leave it like that til I'm clear on the direction. While I'm at it, tho, I'm working up a lot of submixes and maybe a mult or two, which gives me a framework to work in later. And then I do a lot of the stuff that's being talked about here. For what it's worth, these days I usually submix the kick with the bass instead of with the shells, cause the bottom can get so tricky for me. The right reverb or squashed room mic is part of the deal too.

Happily, nobody's ever asked me to make the drums sound like Linkin Park. But I know what you mean.

[bassmac]

OTOH... Led Zep had tons of hat and cymbals, and nobody ever though those tracks were wrong.

IMHO the hat and cymbals (overheads) IS what helps glue it all together.

I think samples have taken us so far away from what a kit in a room actually sounds like, that when we hear one, it doesn't seem right anymore.

[joaquin]

A simple suggestion: change the perspective of your OH from audience to drummer's............

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by ixnys

I've got this song that just using the kick, overheads, and room, the drums sound great. Everything puches through. However even when I balance the drums, guitars, bass, and vox, the mix still doesn't feel glued together like the rock mixes of my favorite bands. It seems like my cymbals (Ride,Hat,Crashes) are too bright for the guitars. However when I lo-pass or cut down on the higher frequencies, they sound too dull.

Well, mixing drums can be quite tricky. Certainly if you have to work with uneven performances.
I do a lot of parallel compression: most of the time I have a snare mult with a gate to chop off the first 15ms or so to lose the transient. Then compress to pieces and send to mono hall. This blended in gets some sustain to the snare. I always use a mult to add the click to the kick and automate this if needed.
I also use a drumbus mult with fast attack, fast release and high ratio, and blend this in to add weight and sustain to the drums.

Good luck,
Dirk

[thethrillfactor]

2 words:

Andy Wallace.

That's all you need to know.

[alphajerk]

its called sound replacement and sound enhancement. almost every band you mention i would be suprised if they werent all SR'd.... sure sound like it. if thats the sound you are going for i would suggest starting there [wonder why the metal sounds low in the mix...? with the kick/snare sounding so prominent?!?]

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

2 words:

Andy Wallace.

That's all you need to know.

Yep, the master himself.

Greetings,
Dirk

[ixnys]

I've used samples before, but that was when my drum performances weren't as solid. On this song I'm mixing now, the drum performance is a lot more solid, and the kick and snare are always at the same level and pierce through easily and never get lost. If anything, maybe this time my overhead mics were a little too low and close to the cymbals while tracking. Therefore I've had to automate the overheads and lower their volume during crash parts. Other than that the drums sound good. Maybe I'll try to upload an audio file of some of the performance later.

Anyways, I really don't think there is a need for drum samples when the kick, snare, and toms sound good. It's more like despite the drums sounding good, they still don't perfectly gell mixwise.

However right now I'm multing the snare and kick and gating and compressing them hard and then mixing them up with the original unprocessed snare and kick. This seems to allow me to keep the snare and kick higher in the mix and allows me to lower the overheads a tad so the cymbals don't seem too overbearing at times.

I've also hi-passed the OH's to like 500khz...It seems anything below that is already covered in the close mics plus it solves some phase issues.

So I'm just still tinkering away and trying to learn and improve my mix techniques. Thanks for all the replies. The more ideas and tips discussed, the more things I have to try out.

[ixnys]

Originally Posted by patrox247

Here is a hint. Think about why cymbles would have to be low in a mix.
Think about why the panning of the cymbles is so incredibly specific.
Learn to hear the difference between the natural method and the perfect method.
Listen to a Thrice albulm. Why is there no real ambiance?

I definitely know what you mean. One of their songs opens up and it sounds like a damn sequenced drum machine! Nice post. You really nailed it.

Originally Posted by patrox247

How can a 23 yr old Kid be so much more solid of a drummer than Neil Pert? Would we allow the natural performance of a kid in their early 20's to be featured on a record we are trying to market to 20 million plus people?

Great point. I find it hard to believe that all these 20-25 year old drummers are great enough to really be able to play perfectly to a click, hit consistently, not hit the hi-hat too hard, etc.

[alphajerk]

fwiw, the drum samples [not SAMPLES, but albums you mention] in no way sound "natural" and in reality the cymbals are quite loud in the room [and while playing for that matter] i think a crash should CRASH... but as always, reality is what you can get away with.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by ixnys

I've also hi-passed the OH's to like 500khz...It seems anything below that is already covered in the close mics plus it solves some phase issues.

.

This is part of the reason that the cymbals are so bright and stick out.

[Prickstein]

So speaking of sound replacing, is it the norm to totally replace sounds these days or support the sound of the real drum? I add a hint of a sample to my snare to keep a consistency to the top end of the hit, I doubt an untrained ear would hear the difference if I mute the sample.
If everything is TOTALLY sound replaced, what's the point of using good mics, pres etc?

[MarkS]

my drum sound really started to glue when I started using more outboard hardware for mixing, and not only tracking.
this sounds extreme funny, i know, but with all the media/advertising hype you are tricked into thinking that plug ins are as good as the real thing.
no they are not for certain things.
a stereo bus into a real good compressor /eq chain put a halt to the endless fiddling that i was experiencing.
surgical/ analytical touch ups I do in the box now, the heavy strokes and the 'punch in your face' strokes, are done outboard. it just starts to fall in place right there, and suddenly it is there.
magic ? don t know. i should have listen more carefully to the seasoned engineers preaching this for a long time way earlier - thats why i am telling this.

[joaquin]

I know you didn't cite Metallica, but from what I understand, there were up to six samples on each drum to create that sound on the black album.

Men.. I just saw " a year and a Half in the life of Metallica" (great movie), and even though I had not listen (for real) to the album, I can't believe that someone will go thru all the trouble of miking a Drum set with the best mics, amzing room, incredible pres and...replace everything with samples!?

[RoundBadge]

I'm not the "Pop,R&B,Hip Hop slick radio mix type, [although
I like a lot of that stuff,neptunes,outcast etc]thats not really my recording world...
Heck ..I'm just a rock 'n roll guy..But I've been at Sound City room "A" tracking bands with great players, real budgets and top notch drum doctor types and a gazillion snares,drums, etc and you'd be suprised to see the producer still asking to sound replace and edit every last note onto the f*cking grid in a bid to be "competitive" in todays radio market[ie: get hired again] --Modern rock radio ...F That! ...Boring!!!
...Yuuuuck! ....22 year old inexperienced kids aside, It's also sad to see sometimes guys like Josh Freese or Abe Laboriel jr's drums and performances hacked /wacked/compressed/processed into submission ,Some people love to have all these options instead of commiting to a natural human performance in a good room and ala Bonham, C Watts, ect. .Of course there's all the little things that make up that whole---great songs, drums,mic's,console ,maybe tape etc. ..Listen to a new band like "The Used" 1st albumn then put on any thing recorded by Glyn Johns back in the day..What the F*ck happened!!??
Bands like the White Stripes wether you like em or not ,might help change the tide and maybe P/A/E's won't have to lean on all the samples, etc and commit to something real sounding,[thats what pre production is for ...rehearse,-get good takes,minimize the edits please!] flaws and all.
1-Good player on a ..2-good kit in a ..3-good room .....Great mic's, pre's, comps,plugins,outboard,etc,etc won't do sh*t if those 1st three elements aren't happening. other wise you're just patching cracks in a leaky dam.
Maybe the loudness wars will settle a little and we'll start to hear some more organic real sounding stuff in the near future...
sorry for the wordy rant

[eric_hedford]

its called sound replacement and sound enhancement. almost every band you mention i would be suprised if they werent all SR'd....

I read stories of session drummers using V-drums and other triggers. Great Players even. Even the most rudimentary player can get amazing sounds, use midi to correct timing, and then process the shit out it. Might not be the best feel, but listen to those modern rock records. Hell, listen to Def Leopard!