How to tell someone they suck

CorkyTart · 14th March 2005, 05:19 AM

big balls.....

What kind of diplomacy or lack thereof have you used to tell someone their performance wasn't happening?

Just curious because I've got this guy coming in who thinks he can sing but he can't. I know I'm going to have to autotune the balls out of this guys voice and was thinking of saying something along the lines of, "Just to get the quality you want, why don't we nudge a few notes here and there." In this case a few notes will most likely mean a majority. I'll just have to see how his personality is. I think he is an 'artist' (enter French accent)

CT

On a fun note, I once had someone say to me when I was doing a guitar track, "Quite frankly, your guitar playing sounds like shit" I responded with, "Quite frankly I think you're a ****ing ****** bag"

Robert Randolph · 14th March 2005, 05:33 AM

If it were me, and he's paying... Id just gently try to nudge him into more practice if possible. If not.. he's paying, just make sure your name doesnt get put on the release :)

if he ISNT paying, show no mercy!

CorkyTart · 14th March 2005, 05:35 AM

Haha. Yeah, this guy is paying so I have to have business etiquite. I'll also put a spin on it like its no big deal and everyone is doing it. Which is true in certain genres.

Albert · 14th March 2005, 05:53 AM

Why don't you just fix the pitch and not say anything at all?

Sammas · 14th March 2005, 06:19 AM

**** it... just give him the mixdown as is...

that'll say more than you ever could... if you autotune it all, he'll actually think he can sing.

vaesion · 14th March 2005, 06:27 AM

just in a nice manner tell him his voice is garbage

haha
i deal with these types all the time.

I rate them according to what i know there best is and then tell them its not my fav genre

wrong person to ask

sometimes ill tell em they could hit the notes a little better -to practice
i build there confidence by telling them I know they can do it.
i heard them do it
but its not consistant enough because u dont pratice enough and ur voice isnt strong enough to be precise always

Sounds Great · 14th March 2005, 07:34 AM

Depends on my mood.

Right now I think I would just tell them:

"I wish I could put this kindly, but your singing sucks! Perhaps you should get a real vocalist for the track."

ozraves · 14th March 2005, 07:41 AM

I remember telling one of my friends that his singing was holding back his songwriting career. BTW, he was a great songwriter.

Anyhow, the friendship ended there. I think that was about 12 years ago or so.

I think he's working at a Kinko's in Austin now.

CorkyTart · 14th March 2005, 07:51 AM

The reason I can't just fix the pitch and leave it is that I need to account for the hours of work. Since this guy is new at recording, he has no idea how involved the entire process is, he thinks that hes going to do one or two takes and have his track nailed. In the best case scenario, that would happen, but it wont with this guy.

CT

CaliBrian · 14th March 2005, 08:57 AM

I would try to be honest without being insulting. It's hard to sometimes tell people those things, but you might be doing this guy a favor in the long run. He might become emotionally scarred when he auditions for American Idol in front of that Simon Cowell guy.

The first thing you might do is say "have you ever thought about getting someone to sing lead for you?". If he doesn't get the hint at that point, then just say "hey, i don't mean to insult you, but your vocals are going to be too hard to edit because you can't maintain proper pitch consistently...even Autotune won't be able to help it. I really think it would be in your best interest to hire a lead singer to sing these for you. I am telling you this to save you from spending more money for studio time and being unsatisfied with the final product." If he gets insulted by that, then it's his problem.

blaugruen7 · 14th March 2005, 09:36 AM

maybe you could just very clearly tell him, that
YOU do not PREFER his singing.
when he asks, you can tell him because of the intonation...
but whith this you stay within your feelings and you
are not putting a general absolute judgment on him.
he is not attacked.
express yourself and dont judge.

**Jules** · 14th March 2005, 09:44 AM

why not just leave it..is he aware of Auto Tune?

Send him out the door with his sh!tty singing loud & clear..

What a drag...

**toolskid** · 14th March 2005, 10:17 AM

I would make it clear to yourself primarily what your role is on the session, are you just engineering a project for him, or are you producing it. Thrash this out with him too. If its just engineering, you can make him aware of any tuning issues, and then its his call if he wants to fix it and therefore pay the bill. If you are gonna take on the responsibility of producing this dude then make sure he understands what that entails and try to build a relationship with him whereby you can either get him involved in the tuning process or get him outta the building!!

natpub · 14th March 2005, 10:22 AM

plenty of famous singers with horrible pitch, tone, whatever

I'd go with Jules advice and just let the man record what he wants unless he is asking for help or opinions

JulianBrightnes · 14th March 2005, 10:34 AM

Don't agree with that, if you can fix the pitch: fix it and tell him it's normal procedure these days. If you send him out with a terrible sounding recording he's gonna blame you and not himself! He'll blame it on the headphones, the engineer or something else...
If you make him sound great (if possible) he'll tell everyone what a great studio/engineer he went to. That's what I would do, after all he is a client.

Cheers, Julian

deft_bonz · 14th March 2005, 12:01 PM

If I am paying, that means it is my own project, I sweet talk to them:" This voice was good, but we should try to do it this or that way!" I have to say that for my own project I don't get rookies, mostly semi-pros or very good amateurs. They do a very fine job for less money. Only sometimes they're not hitting the notes etc . Gladly they hear it often themselves

I also had horrible vocalists/instrumentalists and then I'm honest and tell them, that they are not good enough for my taste. I tell them exactly what's wrong and show them how it sounds and how it should sound. After such a comparison they all noticed that their preformance was crap. Of course they feel down at this moment and try to support them, again with sweet talking:"It needs a lot of practice, you have the talent, what you yet need are lessons with a pro, ok that costs, but if you really look for a music career then this is inevitable."

If the client is paying, I don't mind. Their producer should care for that. I just don't ask for putting my name on the cd

max cooper · 14th March 2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozraves

I remember telling one of my friends that his singing was holding back his songwriting career. BTW, he was a great songwriter.

Anyhow, the friendship ended there. I think that was about 12 years ago or so.

I think he's working at a Kinko's in Austin now.

Pretty much anyone working at a Kinko's in Austin is a Great Songwriter....just ask 'em.

Pink · 14th March 2005, 04:01 PM

"That drum take was great... but does it come in a men's?"

deft_bonz · 14th March 2005, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulianBrightnes

Don't agree with that, if you can fix the pitch: fix it and tell him it's normal procedure these days. If you send him out with a terrible sounding recording he's gonna blame you and not himself! He'll blame it on the headphones, the engineer or something else...
If you make him sound great (if possible) he'll tell everyone what a great studio/engineer he went to. That's what I would do, after all he is a client.

Cheers, Julian

that's a very good point

chetatkinsdiet · 14th March 2005, 04:44 PM

Record a vocal pass, see what happens. Listen back to it. Even bring it up in AT. Show him where the note should be and where his are. Hey, the computer won't lie, right? He'll see the flat and pitchy notes on the screen.
I mean, unless he's the male version of Exene and you've got a John Doe there to balance things out...you're in trouble.
later,
m

Faderjockey · 14th March 2005, 04:48 PM

I have had a client like that before. When I played it back he swore that isn't how he sings. He ask what I put on his voice to make him so bad. I just laughed...What else could I do. It was funny...I made him redo it over and over and over..Once i sort of got something. (the best take I could)

I then auto tuned him and that was that...He liked it..But he couldn't hear what came out of his mouth as being pitchy and just bad..

deft_bonz · 14th March 2005, 04:57 PM

It is art to be able to hear yourself and then to criticise yourself. Not a lot performer can do this.

I'd had only one time to say to a singer that she sings worse than dogs. I couldn't resist to use unpolite words, because in advance she praised herself to heaven. This way she made me curious and suspicious at the same time and took some hours off just to listen and record her. It was something like a casting.

She sang horribly wrong. Even I can sing much better. I was very angry, because she lied to me and wasted my time. Thus I couldn't resist to say to her that sings like a sick dog and cats orchestra

Maybe I destroyed her dreams, but wouldn't it be irresponsible to let her go to the next audio engineer and studio, in the believing that she's good, and let profession friends go crazy about her. We should also care for us

Deft:::

chetatkinsdiet · 14th March 2005, 05:16 PM

You know...I know that in some cases customers are paying you to record them, but we all should take a cue from Simon...on American Idol.....for those of you outside of the US, I'm sure you have your own version of "whatever" idol on the tele....
We shouldn't sugar coat it, but be honest with someone. If you need to go through and record a line at a time, or worse yet, punch in a word here or there, it sucks, but still can be done that way.
Anyway...we've all been in your spot.
later,
m

CorkyTart · 14th March 2005, 05:24 PM

Some good points here. I've got to bring up the pitch thing to this guy because I'm going to need to account/bill the time I spend on him. Hes one of the ones that wants champagne on a beer budget.

You know the saying of how people want, good, fast and cheap - but you can only get two of the three. I'll have to give that explanation.

RKrizman · 14th March 2005, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorkyTart

big balls.....

What kind of diplomacy or lack thereof have you used to tell someone their performance wasn't happening?

Just curious because I've got this guy coming in who thinks he can sing but he can't. I know I'm going to have to autotune the balls out of this guys voice and was thinking of saying something along the lines of, "Just to get the quality you want, why don't we nudge a few notes here and there." In this case a few notes will most likely mean a majority. I'll just have to see how his personality is. I think he is an 'artist' (enter French accent)

Why is it your responsibility? If this guy has no talent don't let him rope you into being his producer. Don't make an issue out of anything. He can decide when he's done enough takes, you can auto-tune, and he can like it or not.

You can do what you can to get a good take out of him, but one thing you can't do is make him a better singer. Accept that, cash the check if you need this kind of business, and move on.

-R

84K · 14th March 2005, 09:16 PM

How to tell someone they suck?

Yea... that was great!.... go... a..... check out the TV in the lounge.... a..... I need to do the production edits.... and a... it'll only take an hour or two........ you wanna just come back tomorrow?

bobby yarrow · 14th March 2005, 09:27 PM

Almost everybody I work with has had a damaging studio experience elsewhere. Usually some contemptuous engineer busting balls. I believe I've worked with the worst singer on earth. I have honestly heard legally deaf people who sing better than the guy I'm thinking of. He didn't walk away with the conviction he had a golden throat, but he came out with something he & I could live with. Figure something out, other than telling them they suck.

14th March 2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

You can do what you can to get a good take out of him, but one thing you can't do is make him a better singer. Accept that, cash the check if you need this kind of business, and move on.

i agree with this. if there is one thing that is hard to do, it is to realize and accept the limitations of the person(s) that youre working with. try to be supportive of them, and get the best from them that you realistically think they can do. its hard for me to do this sometimes... i need to just forget what i think of their performance for a second, and turn that role over to them. encourage them, and let them listen back to it to decide if they like it or not unless you really know that they can do better (without you having to be a slave driver).

i dont think that telling them they are bad will help anything. if they got offended, then you would have the resulting tension to deal with on top of the fact that they still wont be able to sing any better.

sometimes you just need to really be aware of the fact that some performances will not agree with you. just capture it as well as you can and put your subjectivity away for a while.

wwittman · 14th March 2005, 09:42 PM

If I am to assume you're the engineer, then: Why is it up to you to tell him?

I mean, I suppose I might ASK him "do you think that note is a bit flat?"

If he agrees it is, he might ask "what can you do about it?"
and then the door is open to fixing some things.

But at any point that he's happy, shouldn't that be it?
He's paying.
it's his record or demo or whatever.

If he's happy being out of tune, what difference does it make to you?

natpub · 15th March 2005, 02:50 AM

Im glad they didnt get autotune on Dylan or Hendrix (John Hyatt, Lyle Lovette, Randy Newman, Sid Vicious.....)

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14th March 2005, 05:19 AM	#1
CorkyTart Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a house Posts: 1,161	How to tell someone they suck big balls..... What kind of diplomacy or lack thereof have you used to tell someone their performance wasn't happening? Just curious because I've got this guy coming in who thinks he can sing but he can't. I know I'm going to have to autotune the balls out of this guys voice and was thinking of saying something along the lines of, "Just to get the quality you want, why don't we nudge a few notes here and there." In this case a few notes will most likely mean a majority. I'll just have to see how his personality is. I think he is an 'artist' (enter French accent) CT On a fun note, I once had someone say to me when I was doing a guitar track, "Quite frankly, your guitar playing sounds like shit" I responded with, "Quite frankly I think you're a **ing **** bag"

14th March 2005, 05:33 AM	#2
Robert Randolph Gear addict Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 392	If it were me, and he's paying... Id just gently try to nudge him into more practice if possible. If not.. he's paying, just make sure your name doesnt get put on the release :) if he ISNT paying, show no mercy! __________________ I am the Admiral Bumblebee.

14th March 2005, 05:53 AM	#4
Albert Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,483	Why don't you just fix the pitch and not say anything at all? __________________ http://www.misterpotts.com http://www.myspace.com/albypottsmusic

14th March 2005, 07:34 AM	#7
Sounds Great Gear Guru Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 10,953	Depends on my mood. Right now I think I would just tell them: "I wish I could put this kindly, but your singing sucks! Perhaps you should get a real vocalist for the track." __________________ You awake with a start To just the beating of your heart. Just one man beneath the sky, Just two ears, just two eyes.

14th March 2005, 05:35 AM	#3
CorkyTart Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a house Posts: 1,161	Haha. Yeah, this guy is paying so I have to have business etiquite. I'll also put a spin on it like its no big deal and everyone is doing it. Which is true in certain genres.

14th March 2005, 06:19 AM	#5
Sammas Gear nut Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 140	**** it... just give him the mixdown as is... that'll say more than you ever could... if you autotune it all, he'll actually think he can sing.

14th March 2005, 06:27 AM	#6
vaesion Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: tampa Posts: 525	just in a nice manner tell him his voice is garbage haha i deal with these types all the time. I rate them according to what i know there best is and then tell them its not my fav genre wrong person to ask sometimes ill tell em they could hit the notes a little better -to practice i build there confidence by telling them I know they can do it. i heard them do it but its not consistant enough because u dont pratice enough and ur voice isnt strong enough to be precise always

14th March 2005, 07:41 AM	#8
ozraves Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,116	I remember telling one of my friends that his singing was holding back his songwriting career. BTW, he was a great songwriter. Anyhow, the friendship ended there. I think that was about 12 years ago or so. I think he's working at a Kinko's in Austin now.

14th March 2005, 07:51 AM	#9
CorkyTart Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a house Posts: 1,161	The reason I can't just fix the pitch and leave it is that I need to account for the hours of work. Since this guy is new at recording, he has no idea how involved the entire process is, he thinks that hes going to do one or two takes and have his track nailed. In the best case scenario, that would happen, but it wont with this guy. CT

14th March 2005, 08:57 AM	#10
CaliBrian Gear Head Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 31	I would try to be honest without being insulting. It's hard to sometimes tell people those things, but you might be doing this guy a favor in the long run. He might become emotionally scarred when he auditions for American Idol in front of that Simon Cowell guy. The first thing you might do is say "have you ever thought about getting someone to sing lead for you?". If he doesn't get the hint at that point, then just say "hey, i don't mean to insult you, but your vocals are going to be too hard to edit because you can't maintain proper pitch consistently...even Autotune won't be able to help it. I really think it would be in your best interest to hire a lead singer to sing these for you. I am telling you this to save you from spending more money for studio time and being unsatisfied with the final product." If he gets insulted by that, then it's his problem.

14th March 2005, 09:36 AM	#11
blaugruen7 Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: berlin Posts: 1,667	maybe you could just very clearly tell him, that YOU do not PREFER his singing. when he asks, you can tell him because of the intonation... but whith this you stay within your feelings and you are not putting a general absolute judgment on him. he is not attacked. express yourself and dont judge.

14th March 2005, 09:44 AM	#12
Jules Gearslutz.com admin Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 11,814	why not just leave it..is he aware of Auto Tune? Send him out the door with his sh!tty singing loud & clear.. What a drag... __________________ Jules "...there are some amazing deals to be had in this right now. it brings battleship mixing closer to the jilted generation" - reptil

14th March 2005, 10:17 AM	#13
toolskid Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: london Posts: 2,123	I would make it clear to yourself primarily what your role is on the session, are you just engineering a project for him, or are you producing it. Thrash this out with him too. If its just engineering, you can make him aware of any tuning issues, and then its his call if he wants to fix it and therefore pay the bill. If you are gonna take on the responsibility of producing this dude then make sure he understands what that entails and try to build a relationship with him whereby you can either get him involved in the tuning process or get him outta the building!! __________________ Emre Ramazanoglu http://www.emremusic.com the wise man can pick up a grain of sand and envision the whole universe. The fool, however, will just lie down on some seaweed and roll around until he's completely draped in it. Then he'll stand up and go "Hey, I'm vine man"

14th March 2005, 10:22 AM	#14
natpub More cowbell! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,710	plenty of famous singers with horrible pitch, tone, whatever I'd go with Jules advice and just let the man record what he wants unless he is asking for help or opinions __________________ Vibrational Arts, Inc. Blue Sky Way Sonic Sorcery Studios Austin, Texas/Columbus, Ohio

14th March 2005, 10:34 AM	#15
JulianBrightnes Gear addict Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Amsterdam, NL Posts: 355	Don't agree with that, if you can fix the pitch: fix it and tell him it's normal procedure these days. If you send him out with a terrible sounding recording he's gonna blame you and not himself! He'll blame it on the headphones, the engineer or something else... If you make him sound great (if possible) he'll tell everyone what a great studio/engineer he went to. That's what I would do, after all he is a client. Cheers, Julian

14th March 2005, 12:01 PM	#16
deft_bonz Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: switzerland Posts: 1,121	If I am paying, that means it is my own project, I sweet talk to them:" This voice was good, but we should try to do it this or that way!" I have to say that for my own project I don't get rookies, mostly semi-pros or very good amateurs. They do a very fine job for less money. Only sometimes they're not hitting the notes etc . Gladly they hear it often themselves I also had horrible vocalists/instrumentalists and then I'm honest and tell them, that they are not good enough for my taste. I tell them exactly what's wrong and show them how it sounds and how it should sound. After such a comparison they all noticed that their preformance was crap. Of course they feel down at this moment and try to support them, again with sweet talking:"It needs a lot of practice, you have the talent, what you yet need are lessons with a pro, ok that costs, but if you really look for a music career then this is inevitable." If the client is paying, I don't mind. Their producer should care for that. I just don't ask for putting my name on the cd

14th March 2005, 04:01 PM	#18
Pink Gear interested Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 22	"That drum take was great... but does it come in a men's?"

14th March 2005, 04:44 PM	#20
chetatkinsdiet Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,473	Record a vocal pass, see what happens. Listen back to it. Even bring it up in AT. Show him where the note should be and where his are. Hey, the computer won't lie, right? He'll see the flat and pitchy notes on the screen. I mean, unless he's the male version of Exene and you've got a John Doe there to balance things out...you're in trouble. later, m

14th March 2005, 04:48 PM	#21
Faderjockey Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: B-more Posts: 940	I have had a client like that before. When I played it back he swore that isn't how he sings. He ask what I put on his voice to make him so bad. I just laughed...What else could I do. It was funny...I made him redo it over and over and over..Once i sort of got something. (the best take I could) I then auto tuned him and that was that...He liked it..But he couldn't hear what came out of his mouth as being pitchy and just bad..

14th March 2005, 04:57 PM	#22
deft_bonz Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: switzerland Posts: 1,121	It is art to be able to hear yourself and then to criticise yourself. Not a lot performer can do this. I'd had only one time to say to a singer that she sings worse than dogs. I couldn't resist to use unpolite words, because in advance she praised herself to heaven. This way she made me curious and suspicious at the same time and took some hours off just to listen and record her. It was something like a casting. She sang horribly wrong. Even I can sing much better. I was very angry, because she lied to me and wasted my time. Thus I couldn't resist to say to her that sings like a sick dog and cats orchestra Maybe I destroyed her dreams, but wouldn't it be irresponsible to let her go to the next audio engineer and studio, in the believing that she's good, and let profession friends go crazy about her. We should also care for us Deft:::

14th March 2005, 05:16 PM	#23
chetatkinsdiet Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,473	You know...I know that in some cases customers are paying you to record them, but we all should take a cue from Simon...on American Idol.....for those of you outside of the US, I'm sure you have your own version of "whatever" idol on the tele.... We shouldn't sugar coat it, but be honest with someone. If you need to go through and record a line at a time, or worse yet, punch in a word here or there, it sucks, but still can be done that way. Anyway...we've all been in your spot. later, m

14th March 2005, 05:24 PM	#24
CorkyTart Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a house Posts: 1,161	Some good points here. I've got to bring up the pitch thing to this guy because I'm going to need to account/bill the time I spend on him. Hes one of the ones that wants champagne on a beer budget. You know the saying of how people want, good, fast and cheap - but you can only get two of the three. I'll have to give that explanation.

14th March 2005, 09:16 PM	#26
84K Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: right coast Posts: 3,810	How to tell someone they suck? Yea... that was great!.... go... a..... check out the TV in the lounge.... a..... I need to do the production edits.... and a... it'll only take an hour or two........ you wanna just come back tomorrow?

14th March 2005, 09:27 PM	#27
bobby yarrow Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 360	Almost everybody I work with has had a damaging studio experience elsewhere. Usually some contemptuous engineer busting balls. I believe I've worked with the worst singer on earth. I have honestly heard legally deaf people who sing better than the guy I'm thinking of. He didn't walk away with the conviction he had a golden throat, but he came out with something he & I could live with. Figure something out, other than telling them they suck.

14th March 2005, 09:42 PM	#29
wwittman Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: New York Posts: 1,598	If I am to assume you're the engineer, then: Why is it up to you to tell him? I mean, I suppose I might ASK him "do you think that note is a bit flat?" If he agrees it is, he might ask "what can you do about it?" and then the door is open to fixing some things. But at any point that he's happy, shouldn't that be it? He's paying. it's his record or demo or whatever. If he's happy being out of tune, what difference does it make to you? __________________ William Wittman Producer/Engineer (Cyndi Lauper, Joan Osborne, The Fixx, The Outfield...)

15th March 2005, 02:50 AM	#30
natpub More cowbell! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,710	Im glad they didnt get autotune on Dylan or Hendrix (John Hyatt, Lyle Lovette, Randy Newman, Sid Vicious.....)

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