does it exists ? software phase alignment tool ?

krucifyx · 13th March 2005, 08:49 PM

Hi,
Simple question : are there any Phase Alignment plugs ? (PC)

SigmaDeltaAudio · 13th March 2005, 08:54 PM

Yes. Quite a few. PT or VST?

www.voxengo.com for a vst solution.

I forget who makes the PT one, TL?

syra · 13th March 2005, 08:54 PM

Sure...its manual though

zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on!

GPl · 13th March 2005, 08:58 PM

Check out Voxengo PHA-979 VST here

Shan · 13th March 2005, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krucifyx

Hi,
Simple question : are there any Phase Alignment plugs ? (PC)

Tritone will have a plugin called 'PhaseTone' that will be free. Or you could use the 'phase' section od their Hydratone EQ which does the same thing until Phasetone is released.

Shane

Knastratt · 13th March 2005, 09:31 PM

Track offset?

SigmaDeltaAudio · 13th March 2005, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knastratt

Track offset?

Not the same thing :)

antti · 13th March 2005, 10:17 PM

In PT you could use Waves Mondo Mod for that.
Go between 0/90/180/270 degrees. Nudging
files manually gives you better resolution and
results in most cases though.

paterno · 13th March 2005, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syra

Sure...its manual though

zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on!

that's not entirely true, since phase shift is caused when certain frequencies in a complex waveform are delayed. The whole idea is to compensate for the delay in a frequency-dependent or isolated manner -- not just sliding a region around...

John

bassmac · 13th March 2005, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syra

zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on!

Time alignment and phase are two different things. Aligning two out of phase tracks won’t correct their phase relationship. Take a top and bottom snare for example; both mic’s exactly 1” from the heads - the time alignment is exactly the same, but they’re still out of phase.

syra · 13th March 2005, 11:46 PM

I am not talking about "make sure the regions start at the same spot" but matching the positive and negative sides...I don't see how that is different from using a phaze alignment tool digital or analog...

krucifyx · 14th March 2005, 01:11 AM

Wow, so many replies !

I will check these on my next drum session !

Thanks alot

Sam

Forgot to mention : ain't the tritone for Mac ?

tunasafedolphin · 14th March 2005, 01:28 AM

What a great topic. I'm not entirely sure why many DAW users feel that moving waveforms around fixes phase problems. It can help, but you're not actually adujusting the phase, your simply alining the wavefoms to MINIMIZE their phase. Let me try and simplify this thread.

I use TA (time adujuster) in ProTools to check phase, and to help dial in, say, multiple guitar mics on one cabinet during a mix. This is virtually the same thing as physically moving the waveforms, but without doing "destructive" editing. That being said, doing it this way PALES in comparison to using this tool (aka IBP Phase Tool) during tracking - which actually uses a system of filters to adujst phase.

Being that many people have discovered Johnathan's IBP for just such things, it's only been a matter of time before a software version based on the same concept is available. That being said, it looks like the TriTone PhaseTone Plugin will be the first on the market - and likely soon.

Tuna

Hey TriTone guys! I'm really looking forward to this plug! I've been wanting something like this for years - it's bound to be a hit!

krucifyx · 14th March 2005, 02:06 AM

I've tried the Voxengo PHA979 demo and I must admit it worked well for an acoustic guitar miced with 3 mics ... I had trouble when going mono, but no more prob now !

Waiting for tritone to release their products, looks real nice (he other plugs also looks great ... )
But ain't these plugs for mac users only ?

SigmaDeltaAudio · 14th March 2005, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

What a great topic. I'm not entirely sure why many DAW users feel that moving waveforms around fixes phase problems. It can help, but you're not actually adujusting the phase, your simply alining the wavefoms to MINIMIZE their phase. Let me try and simplify this thread.

I use TA (time adujuster) in ProTools to check phase, and to help dial in, say, multiple guitar mics on one cabinet during a mix. This is virtually the same thing as physically moving the waveforms, but without doing "destructive" editing. That being said, doing it this way PALES in comparison to using this tool (aka IBP Phase Tool) during tracking - which actually uses a system of filters to adujst phase.

Being that many people have discovered Johnathan's IBP for just such things, it's only been a matter of time before a software version based on the same concept is available. That being said, it looks like the TriTone PhaseTone Plugin will be the first on the market - and likely soon.

Tuna

Hey TriTone guys! I'm really looking forward to this plug! I've been wanting something like this for years - it's bound to be a hit!

Yeah, except the voxengo tool has been on the market for over a year now LOL!

krucifyx · 14th March 2005, 02:19 AM

I must admit something : the voxengo is quite heavy ... Would'nt imagine inserting it on all my drum tracks, all my guitar tracks etc ... of course you could freeze tracks, but if the tritone is lighter and does the job just fine, could be a great improovment ...

Sam

SigmaDeltaAudio · 14th March 2005, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krucifyx

I must admit something : the voxengo is quite heavy ... Would'nt imagine inserting it on all my drum tracks, all my guitar tracks etc ... of course you could freeze tracks, but if the tritone is lighter and does the job just fine, could be a great improovment ...

Sam

Errr... why would you need it on all those tracks? methinks there's some issues there?

krucifyx · 14th March 2005, 02:56 AM

Would'nt need them on all those apps on everydays basis (as along as I never used such plugs, always worked on mic placement) but it was to think about the worst situation that could ever occure ... Just like a bad day when I didn't spend enough time on mic placement because I was tired, same on guit with a 3 mics set per cab ...

Could go quite fast : snare, kick, toms (3 or 4), and 2 for each guitar ...

But I must admit : spending a bit of time on placement could avoid this problem

But I do think that saving the possibility to adjust phase later can help a lot for mixing, placing the mic where it sounds better without worrying too much about phase issues !

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

SigmaDeltaAudio · 14th March 2005, 02:59 AM

HRm. People have worked for dozens of years with badly miced tracks without needing phase alignment tools... it seems like one of those things that the rare case you need it, it's sparingly.

But then again if the tritone is less cpu than the voxengo, that's just cool all around.

tunasafedolphin · 14th March 2005, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio

Yeah, except the voxengo tool has been on the market for over a year now LOL!

90% of the studios I work in are not PC nor PC VST... hence making it pretty useless for people like me. I recognize this is my opinion, but I wouldn't consider a PC VST plug to be a practical software solution, and therfor wasn't even factoring it in as a solution.

And yes, obviously nothing beats proper mic placement. However excellent mic placement and a Little Labs IBP on guitar = huge tone heaven.

Tuna

junior · 14th March 2005, 03:56 AM

haven't had a chance to use it yet, but doesn't psp stereopack do phase correction?

http://pspaudioware.com/plugins/stereopack.html

SigmaDeltaAudio · 14th March 2005, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

90% of the studios I work in are not PC nor PC VST... hence making it pretty useless for people like me. I recognize this is my opinion, but I wouldn't consider a PC VST plug to be a practical software solution, and therfor wasn't even factoring it in as a solution.

And yes, obviously nothing beats proper mic placement. However excellent mic placement and a Little Labs IBP on guitar = huge tone heaven.

Tuna

Original question he asked about software for a PC :)

14th March 2005, 04:23 AM

Phase is the wrong word for the preamp example. Polarity is the proper word. You can have two waves with the same polarity, yet out of time, which creates phasing. Two different things.

The auto delay compensation of tracks in PT and Nuendo is not exact. It is averaged. Don't rely on it. I get a kick out of people that say that 1 sample +/- makes no difference. Right.

As far as PT goes, if you need to flip polarity, use the Invert function.

In the case of phasing between specific bands, you are screwed if you can't get it right the first time. Mic it right. There shouldn't have to be a plug for such a lack of basic skills IMO. Sliding tracks changes the relationship between mics in time, which sends your imaging and space in the crapper. Of course as a mixing engineer who didn't track, you have to deal with it with these tools.

SigmaDeltaAudio · 14th March 2005, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowdbrent

The auto delay compensation of tracks in PT and Nuendo is not exact. It is averaged. Don't rely on it. I get a kick out of people that say that 1 sample +/- makes no difference. Right.

Im curious to which delay compensation you're speaking of (as there are 3 types, record, plugin and hardware insert)... and where you got that information from. If you're like to talk about it privately or in a new thread, that'd be cool.

14th March 2005, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio

Im curious to which delay compensation you're speaking of (as there are 3 types, record, plugin and hardware insert)... and where you got that information from. If you're like to talk about it privately or in a new thread, that'd be cool.

From each of the company's respective reps and various plug in developers like Waves. I'd be happy to provide you with the sources directly.

SigmaDeltaAudio · 14th March 2005, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowdbrent

From each of the company's respective reps and various plug in developers like Waves. I'd be happy to provide you with the sources directly.

Please do

14th March 2005, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio

Please do

Jake Winn at Waves
jacob@waves.com

Jake Schaefer at Digidesign
Jake_Schaefer@digidesign.com

SigmaDeltaAudio · 14th March 2005, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowdbrent

Jake Winn at Waves
jacob@waves.com

Jake Schaefer at Digidesign
Jake_Schaefer@digidesign.com

What about nuendo?

tunasafedolphin · 14th March 2005, 06:09 AM

Maybe I'm letting the cat of the bag a little bit here, but for those of you who doubt the coolness of the IBP, or a phase alignment tool that works as well for that matter, try this experiment on rock guitar:

1st d/l a demo

Assuming you have a great amp/player/guitar try this:

1. Set up 3 mics (preferably a Royer 121, a 57 and a 421 on the best sounding speaker into some decent pres - DUH!)

2. Mute mic 2 & 3. Move mic 1 around until you've found the spot where it sounds the best and mute it. Unmute mic 2, move it around until you've found the spot where it sounds the best and mute it. Repeat for Mic 3.

3. When you've found the best position for each individual mic independently, introduce the phase alignment tool. Chose you favorite 2 mics and keep the 3rd muted. Use the phase tool to find the best balance between the 2 mics. Unmute the 3rd mic. Use the phase tool to make it sound good with the first 2 blended mics…

If by this point you haven't opened a whole new world of coolness, I'll eat my own poo.

Tuna

krucifyx · 14th March 2005, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

3. When you've found the best position for each individual mic independently, introduce the phase alignment tool. Chose you favorite 2 mics and keep the 3rd muted. Use the phase tool to find the best balance between the 2 mics. Unmute the 3rd mic. Use the phase tool to make it sound good with the first 2 blended mics…

I was seeing it this way ! But also as a tool to protect my mixes from bad takes mine, but I also often mix projects that I didn't trak. how could I have checked the phase during the takes ? )

Sam

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13th March 2005, 08:49 PM	#1
krucifyx Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Paris, France Posts: 88	does it exists ? software phase alignment tool ? Hi, Simple question : are there any Phase Alignment plugs ? (PC) __________________ Less is more ...

13th March 2005, 08:54 PM	#2
SigmaDeltaAudio Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 248	Yes. Quite a few. PT or VST? www.voxengo.com for a vst solution. I forget who makes the PT one, TL? __________________ -Robert Randolph @ SigmaDelta Audio Labs

13th March 2005, 08:58 PM	#4
GPl Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Ottawa Posts: 1,270	Voxengo PHA-979 VST Check out Voxengo PHA-979 VST here __________________ Michael Scott --------------------------------------------- "Two degrees in bebop, a PHD in swing, he's the master of rhythm, he's a rock and roll king" -Lowell George-

13th March 2005, 09:31 PM	#6
Knastratt Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Karlstad, Sweden Posts: 430	Track offset? __________________ Pär Hällquist Trackstop recording One stop Track Shop __________________ How come there's only ONE competition authority?

13th March 2005, 08:54 PM	#3
syra Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: L.A. Posts: 1,330	Sure...its manual though zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on!

13th March 2005, 10:17 PM	#8
antti Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 134	In PT you could use Waves Mondo Mod for that. Go between 0/90/180/270 degrees. Nudging files manually gives you better resolution and results in most cases though.

13th March 2005, 11:46 PM	#11
syra Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: L.A. Posts: 1,330	I am not talking about "make sure the regions start at the same spot" but matching the positive and negative sides...I don't see how that is different from using a phaze alignment tool digital or analog...

14th March 2005, 01:11 AM	#12
krucifyx Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Paris, France Posts: 88	Wow, so many replies ! I will check these on my next drum session ! Thanks alot Sam Forgot to mention : ain't the tritone for Mac ? __________________ Less is more ...

14th March 2005, 01:28 AM	#13
tunasafedolphin Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Diego Posts: 208	What a great topic. I'm not entirely sure why many DAW users feel that moving waveforms around fixes phase problems. It can help, but you're not actually adujusting the phase, your simply alining the wavefoms to MINIMIZE their phase. Let me try and simplify this thread. I use TA (time adujuster) in ProTools to check phase, and to help dial in, say, multiple guitar mics on one cabinet during a mix. This is virtually the same thing as physically moving the waveforms, but without doing "destructive" editing. That being said, doing it this way PALES in comparison to using this tool (aka IBP Phase Tool) during tracking - which actually uses a system of filters to adujst phase. Being that many people have discovered Johnathan's IBP for just such things, it's only been a matter of time before a software version based on the same concept is available. That being said, it looks like the TriTone PhaseTone Plugin will be the first on the market - and likely soon. Tuna Hey TriTone guys! I'm really looking forward to this plug! I've been wanting something like this for years - it's bound to be a hit!

14th March 2005, 02:06 AM	#14
krucifyx Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Paris, France Posts: 88	I've tried the Voxengo PHA979 demo and I must admit it worked well for an acoustic guitar miced with 3 mics ... I had trouble when going mono, but no more prob now ! Waiting for tritone to release their products, looks real nice (he other plugs also looks great ... ) But ain't these plugs for mac users only ? __________________ Less is more ...

14th March 2005, 02:19 AM	#16
krucifyx Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Paris, France Posts: 88	I must admit something : the voxengo is quite heavy ... Would'nt imagine inserting it on all my drum tracks, all my guitar tracks etc ... of course you could freeze tracks, but if the tritone is lighter and does the job just fine, could be a great improovment ... Sam __________________ Less is more ...

14th March 2005, 02:56 AM	#18
krucifyx Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Paris, France Posts: 88	Would'nt need them on all those apps on everydays basis (as along as I never used such plugs, always worked on mic placement) but it was to think about the worst situation that could ever occure ... Just like a bad day when I didn't spend enough time on mic placement because I was tired, same on guit with a 3 mics set per cab ... Could go quite fast : snare, kick, toms (3 or 4), and 2 for each guitar ... But I must admit : spending a bit of time on placement could avoid this problem But I do think that saving the possibility to adjust phase later can help a lot for mixing, placing the mic where it sounds better without worrying too much about phase issues ! If I'm wrong, please correct me. __________________ Less is more ...

14th March 2005, 02:59 AM	#19
SigmaDeltaAudio Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 248	HRm. People have worked for dozens of years with badly miced tracks without needing phase alignment tools... it seems like one of those things that the rare case you need it, it's sparingly. But then again if the tritone is less cpu than the voxengo, that's just cool all around. __________________ -Robert Randolph @ SigmaDelta Audio Labs

14th March 2005, 03:56 AM	#21
junior Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 867	haven't had a chance to use it yet, but doesn't psp stereopack do phase correction? http://pspaudioware.com/plugins/stereopack.html __________________ "Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep"... --Scott Adams

14th March 2005, 04:23 AM	#23
Lowdbrent Guest Posts: n/a	Phase is the wrong word for the preamp example. Polarity is the proper word. You can have two waves with the same polarity, yet out of time, which creates phasing. Two different things. The auto delay compensation of tracks in PT and Nuendo is not exact. It is averaged. Don't rely on it. I get a kick out of people that say that 1 sample +/- makes no difference. Right. As far as PT goes, if you need to flip polarity, use the Invert function. In the case of phasing between specific bands, you are screwed if you can't get it right the first time. Mic it right. There shouldn't have to be a plug for such a lack of basic skills IMO. Sliding tracks changes the relationship between mics in time, which sends your imaging and space in the crapper. Of course as a mixing engineer who didn't track, you have to deal with it with these tools.

14th March 2005, 06:09 AM	#29
tunasafedolphin Gear maniac Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Diego Posts: 208	Maybe I'm letting the cat of the bag a little bit here, but for those of you who doubt the coolness of the IBP, or a phase alignment tool that works as well for that matter, try this experiment on rock guitar: 1st d/l a demo Assuming you have a great amp/player/guitar try this: 1. Set up 3 mics (preferably a Royer 121, a 57 and a 421 on the best sounding speaker into some decent pres - DUH!) 2. Mute mic 2 & 3. Move mic 1 around until you've found the spot where it sounds the best and mute it. Unmute mic 2, move it around until you've found the spot where it sounds the best and mute it. Repeat for Mic 3. 3. When you've found the best position for each individual mic independently, introduce the phase alignment tool. Chose you favorite 2 mics and keep the 3rd muted. Use the phase tool to find the best balance between the 2 mics. Unmute the 3rd mic. Use the phase tool to make it sound good with the first 2 blended mics… If by this point you haven't opened a whole new world of coolness, I'll eat my own poo. Tuna

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