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does it exists ? software phase alignment tool ?
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Old 13th March 2005   #1
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does it exists ? software phase alignment tool ?

Hi,
Simple question : are there any Phase Alignment plugs ? (PC)
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Old 13th March 2005   #2
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Yes. Quite a few. PT or VST?

www.voxengo.com for a vst solution.

I forget who makes the PT one, TL?
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Old 13th March 2005   #3
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Sure...its manual though

zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on!
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Old 13th March 2005   #4
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Voxengo PHA-979 VST

Check out Voxengo PHA-979 VST here
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Old 13th March 2005   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krucifyx
Hi,
Simple question : are there any Phase Alignment plugs ? (PC)
Tritone will have a plugin called 'PhaseTone' that will be free. Or you could use the 'phase' section od their Hydratone EQ which does the same thing until Phasetone is released.

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Old 13th March 2005   #6
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Track offset?
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Old 13th March 2005   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knastratt
Track offset?
Not the same thing
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Old 13th March 2005   #8
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In PT you could use Waves Mondo Mod for that.
Go between 0/90/180/270 degrees. Nudging
files manually gives you better resolution and
results in most cases though.
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Old 13th March 2005   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syra
Sure...its manual though

zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on!
that's not entirely true, since phase shift is caused when certain frequencies in a complex waveform are delayed. The whole idea is to compensate for the delay in a frequency-dependent or isolated manner -- not just sliding a region around...

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Old 13th March 2005   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syra
zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on!
Time alignment and phase are two different things. Aligning two out of phase tracks won’t correct their phase relationship. Take a top and bottom snare for example; both mic’s exactly 1” from the heads - the time alignment is exactly the same, but they’re still out of phase.
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Old 13th March 2005   #11
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I am not talking about "make sure the regions start at the same spot" but matching the positive and negative sides...I don't see how that is different from using a phaze alignment tool digital or analog...
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Old 14th March 2005   #12
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Wow, so many replies !

I will check these on my next drum session !

Thanks alot

Sam

Forgot to mention : ain't the tritone for Mac ?
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Old 14th March 2005   #13
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What a great topic. I'm not entirely sure why many DAW users feel that moving waveforms around fixes phase problems. It can help, but you're not actually adujusting the phase, your simply alining the wavefoms to MINIMIZE their phase. Let me try and simplify this thread.

I use TA (time adujuster) in ProTools to check phase, and to help dial in, say, multiple guitar mics on one cabinet during a mix. This is virtually the same thing as physically moving the waveforms, but without doing "destructive" editing. That being said, doing it this way PALES in comparison to using this tool (aka IBP Phase Tool) during tracking - which actually uses a system of filters to adujst phase.

Being that many people have discovered Johnathan's IBP for just such things, it's only been a matter of time before a software version based on the same concept is available. That being said, it looks like the TriTone PhaseTone Plugin will be the first on the market - and likely soon.

Tuna

Hey TriTone guys! I'm really looking forward to this plug! I've been wanting something like this for years - it's bound to be a hit!
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Old 14th March 2005   #14
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I've tried the Voxengo PHA979 demo and I must admit it worked well for an acoustic guitar miced with 3 mics ... I had trouble when going mono, but no more prob now !

Waiting for tritone to release their products, looks real nice (he other plugs also looks great ... )
But ain't these plugs for mac users only ?
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Old 14th March 2005   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin
What a great topic. I'm not entirely sure why many DAW users feel that moving waveforms around fixes phase problems. It can help, but you're not actually adujusting the phase, your simply alining the wavefoms to MINIMIZE their phase. Let me try and simplify this thread.

I use TA (time adujuster) in ProTools to check phase, and to help dial in, say, multiple guitar mics on one cabinet during a mix. This is virtually the same thing as physically moving the waveforms, but without doing "destructive" editing. That being said, doing it this way PALES in comparison to using this tool (aka IBP Phase Tool) during tracking - which actually uses a system of filters to adujst phase.

Being that many people have discovered Johnathan's IBP for just such things, it's only been a matter of time before a software version based on the same concept is available. That being said, it looks like the TriTone PhaseTone Plugin will be the first on the market - and likely soon.

Tuna

Hey TriTone guys! I'm really looking forward to this plug! I've been wanting something like this for years - it's bound to be a hit!


Yeah, except the voxengo tool has been on the market for over a year now LOL!
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Old 14th March 2005   #16
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I must admit something : the voxengo is quite heavy ... Would'nt imagine inserting it on all my drum tracks, all my guitar tracks etc ... of course you could freeze tracks, but if the tritone is lighter and does the job just fine, could be a great improovment ...

Sam
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Old 14th March 2005   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krucifyx
I must admit something : the voxengo is quite heavy ... Would'nt imagine inserting it on all my drum tracks, all my guitar tracks etc ... of course you could freeze tracks, but if the tritone is lighter and does the job just fine, could be a great improovment ...

Sam
Errr... why would you need it on all those tracks? methinks there's some issues there?
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Old 14th March 2005   #18
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Would'nt need them on all those apps on everydays basis (as along as I never used such plugs, always worked on mic placement) but it was to think about the worst situation that could ever occure ... Just like a bad day when I didn't spend enough time on mic placement because I was tired, same on guit with a 3 mics set per cab ...

Could go quite fast : snare, kick, toms (3 or 4), and 2 for each guitar ...

But I must admit : spending a bit of time on placement could avoid this problem

But I do think that saving the possibility to adjust phase later can help a lot for mixing, placing the mic where it sounds better without worrying too much about phase issues !

If I'm wrong, please correct me.
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Old 14th March 2005   #19
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HRm. People have worked for dozens of years with badly miced tracks without needing phase alignment tools... it seems like one of those things that the rare case you need it, it's sparingly.

But then again if the tritone is less cpu than the voxengo, that's just cool all around.
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Old 14th March 2005   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio
Yeah, except the voxengo tool has been on the market for over a year now LOL!
90% of the studios I work in are not PC nor PC VST... hence making it pretty useless for people like me. I recognize this is my opinion, but I wouldn't consider a PC VST plug to be a practical software solution, and therfor wasn't even factoring it in as a solution.

And yes, obviously nothing beats proper mic placement. However excellent mic placement and a Little Labs IBP on guitar = huge tone heaven.

Tuna
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Old 14th March 2005   #21
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haven't had a chance to use it yet, but doesn't psp stereopack do phase correction?

http://pspaudioware.com/plugins/stereopack.html
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Old 14th March 2005   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin
90% of the studios I work in are not PC nor PC VST... hence making it pretty useless for people like me. I recognize this is my opinion, but I wouldn't consider a PC VST plug to be a practical software solution, and therfor wasn't even factoring it in as a solution.

And yes, obviously nothing beats proper mic placement. However excellent mic placement and a Little Labs IBP on guitar = huge tone heaven.

Tuna
Original question he asked about software for a PC
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Old 14th March 2005   #23
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Phase is the wrong word for the preamp example. Polarity is the proper word. You can have two waves with the same polarity, yet out of time, which creates phasing. Two different things.

The auto delay compensation of tracks in PT and Nuendo is not exact. It is averaged. Don't rely on it. I get a kick out of people that say that 1 sample +/- makes no difference. Right.

As far as PT goes, if you need to flip polarity, use the Invert function.

In the case of phasing between specific bands, you are screwed if you can't get it right the first time. Mic it right. There shouldn't have to be a plug for such a lack of basic skills IMO. Sliding tracks changes the relationship between mics in time, which sends your imaging and space in the crapper. Of course as a mixing engineer who didn't track, you have to deal with it with these tools.
 
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Old 14th March 2005   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowdbrent
The auto delay compensation of tracks in PT and Nuendo is not exact. It is averaged. Don't rely on it. I get a kick out of people that say that 1 sample +/- makes no difference. Right.
Im curious to which delay compensation you're speaking of (as there are 3 types, record, plugin and hardware insert)... and where you got that information from. If you're like to talk about it privately or in a new thread, that'd be cool.
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Old 14th March 2005   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio
Im curious to which delay compensation you're speaking of (as there are 3 types, record, plugin and hardware insert)... and where you got that information from. If you're like to talk about it privately or in a new thread, that'd be cool.
From each of the company's respective reps and various plug in developers like Waves. I'd be happy to provide you with the sources directly.
 
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Old 14th March 2005   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowdbrent
From each of the company's respective reps and various plug in developers like Waves. I'd be happy to provide you with the sources directly.
Please do
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Old 14th March 2005   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio
Please do
Jake Winn at Waves
jacob@waves.com

Jake Schaefer at Digidesign
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Old 14th March 2005   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowdbrent
Jake Winn at Waves
jacob@waves.com

Jake Schaefer at Digidesign
Jake_Schaefer@digidesign.com
What about nuendo?
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Old 14th March 2005   #29
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Maybe I'm letting the cat of the bag a little bit here, but for those of you who doubt the coolness of the IBP, or a phase alignment tool that works as well for that matter, try this experiment on rock guitar:

1st d/l a demo

Assuming you have a great amp/player/guitar try this:

1. Set up 3 mics (preferably a Royer 121, a 57 and a 421 on the best sounding speaker into some decent pres - DUH!)

2. Mute mic 2 & 3. Move mic 1 around until you've found the spot where it sounds the best and mute it. Unmute mic 2, move it around until you've found the spot where it sounds the best and mute it. Repeat for Mic 3.

3. When you've found the best position for each individual mic independently, introduce the phase alignment tool. Chose you favorite 2 mics and keep the 3rd muted. Use the phase tool to find the best balance between the 2 mics. Unmute the 3rd mic. Use the phase tool to make it sound good with the first 2 blended mics…

If by this point you haven't opened a whole new world of coolness, I'll eat my own poo.

Tuna
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Old 14th March 2005   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin
3. When you've found the best position for each individual mic independently, introduce the phase alignment tool. Chose you favorite 2 mics and keep the 3rd muted. Use the phase tool to find the best balance between the 2 mics. Unmute the 3rd mic. Use the phase tool to make it sound good with the first 2 blended mics…
I was seeing it this way ! But also as a tool to protect my mixes from bad takes mine, but I also often mix projects that I didn't trak. how could I have checked the phase during the takes ? )

Sam
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