13th March 2005
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#1 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Philly
Posts: 182
Thread Starter  | does it exists ? software phase alignment tool ?
Hi,
Simple question : are there any Phase Alignment plugs ? (PC)
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13th March 2005
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#2 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
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Yes. Quite a few. PT or VST? www.voxengo.com for a vst solution.
I forget who makes the PT one, TL?
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13th March 2005
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#3 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Apr 2003 Location: L.A.
Posts: 2,251
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Sure...its manual though 
zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on!
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13th March 2005
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#4 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jul 2004 Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,615
| Voxengo PHA-979 VST
Check out Voxengo PHA-979 VST here | |
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13th March 2005
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#5 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver
Posts: 780
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by krucifyx Hi,
Simple question : are there any Phase Alignment plugs ? (PC) | Tritone will have a plugin called 'PhaseTone' that will be free. Or you could use the 'phase' section od their Hydratone EQ which does the same thing until Phasetone is released.
Shane
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13th March 2005
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#6 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Feb 2004 Location: Karlstad, Sweden
Posts: 785
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Track offset?  | |
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13th March 2005
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#7 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Knastratt Track offset? | Not the same thing  | |
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13th March 2005
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#8 | | Gear addict
Joined: Feb 2005 Location: From North Pole to the Amazonas via Londonistan
Posts: 320
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In PT you could use Waves Mondo Mod for that.
Go between 0/90/180/270 degrees. Nudging
files manually gives you better resolution and
results in most cases though.
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13th March 2005
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#9 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2003 Location: LA
Posts: 1,456
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by syra Sure...its manual though
zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on! | that's not entirely true, since phase shift is caused when certain frequencies in a complex waveform are delayed. The whole idea is to compensate for the delay in a frequency-dependent or isolated manner -- not just sliding a region around...
John
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13th March 2005
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#10 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 683
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by syra zoom in and move the regions until phaze is right on! | Time alignment and phase are two different things. Aligning two out of phase tracks won’t correct their phase relationship. Take a top and bottom snare for example; both mic’s exactly 1” from the heads - the time alignment is exactly the same, but they’re still out of phase.
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13th March 2005
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#11 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Apr 2003 Location: L.A.
Posts: 2,251
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I am not talking about "make sure the regions start at the same spot" but matching the positive and negative sides...I don't see how that is different from using a phaze alignment tool digital or analog...
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14th March 2005
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#12 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Philly
Posts: 182
Thread Starter |
Wow, so many replies !
I will check these on my next drum session !
Thanks alot
Sam
Forgot to mention : ain't the tritone for Mac ?
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Less is more ...
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14th March 2005
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#13 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: San Diego
Posts: 214
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What a great topic. I'm not entirely sure why many DAW users feel that moving waveforms around fixes phase problems. It can help, but you're not actually adujusting the phase, your simply alining the wavefoms to MINIMIZE their phase. Let me try and simplify this thread.
I use TA (time adujuster) in ProTools to check phase, and to help dial in, say, multiple guitar mics on one cabinet during a mix. This is virtually the same thing as physically moving the waveforms, but without doing "destructive" editing. That being said, doing it this way PALES in comparison to using this tool (aka IBP Phase Tool) during tracking - which actually uses a system of filters to adujst phase.
Being that many people have discovered Johnathan's IBP for just such things, it's only been a matter of time before a software version based on the same concept is available. That being said, it looks like the TriTone PhaseTone Plugin will be the first on the market - and likely soon.
Tuna
Hey TriTone guys! I'm really looking forward to this plug! I've been wanting something like this for years - it's bound to be a hit!
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14th March 2005
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#14 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Philly
Posts: 182
Thread Starter |
I've tried the Voxengo PHA979 demo and I must admit it worked well for an acoustic guitar miced with 3 mics ... I had trouble when going mono, but no more prob now !
Waiting for tritone to release their products, looks real nice (he other plugs also looks great ... )
But ain't these plugs for mac users only ?
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14th March 2005
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#15 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin What a great topic. I'm not entirely sure why many DAW users feel that moving waveforms around fixes phase problems. It can help, but you're not actually adujusting the phase, your simply alining the wavefoms to MINIMIZE their phase. Let me try and simplify this thread.
I use TA (time adujuster) in ProTools to check phase, and to help dial in, say, multiple guitar mics on one cabinet during a mix. This is virtually the same thing as physically moving the waveforms, but without doing "destructive" editing. That being said, doing it this way PALES in comparison to using this tool (aka IBP Phase Tool) during tracking - which actually uses a system of filters to adujst phase.
Being that many people have discovered Johnathan's IBP for just such things, it's only been a matter of time before a software version based on the same concept is available. That being said, it looks like the TriTone PhaseTone Plugin will be the first on the market - and likely soon.
Tuna
Hey TriTone guys! I'm really looking forward to this plug! I've been wanting something like this for years - it's bound to be a hit! |
Yeah, except the voxengo tool has been on the market for over a year now LOL!
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14th March 2005
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#16 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Philly
Posts: 182
Thread Starter |
I must admit something : the voxengo is quite heavy ... Would'nt imagine inserting it on all my drum tracks, all my guitar tracks etc ... of course you could freeze tracks, but if the tritone is lighter and does the job just fine, could be a great improovment ...
Sam
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14th March 2005
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#17 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by krucifyx I must admit something : the voxengo is quite heavy ... Would'nt imagine inserting it on all my drum tracks, all my guitar tracks etc ... of course you could freeze tracks, but if the tritone is lighter and does the job just fine, could be a great improovment ...
Sam | Errr... why would you need it on all those tracks? methinks there's some issues there?
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14th March 2005
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#18 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Philly
Posts: 182
Thread Starter |
Would'nt need them on all those apps on everydays basis (as along as I never used such plugs, always worked on mic placement) but it was to think about the worst situation that could ever occure ... Just like a bad day when I didn't spend enough time on mic placement because I was tired, same on guit with a 3 mics set per cab ...
Could go quite fast : snare, kick, toms (3 or 4), and 2 for each guitar ...
But I must admit : spending a bit of time on placement could avoid this problem
But I do think that saving the possibility to adjust phase later can help a lot for mixing, placing the mic where it sounds better without worrying too much about phase issues !
If I'm wrong, please correct me.
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14th March 2005
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#19 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
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HRm. People have worked for dozens of years with badly miced tracks without needing phase alignment tools... it seems like one of those things that the rare case you need it, it's sparingly.
But then again if the tritone is less cpu than the voxengo, that's just cool all around.
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14th March 2005
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#20 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: San Diego
Posts: 214
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Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio Yeah, except the voxengo tool has been on the market for over a year now LOL! | 90% of the studios I work in are not PC nor PC VST... hence making it pretty useless for people like me. I recognize this is my opinion, but I wouldn't consider a PC VST plug to be a practical software solution, and therfor wasn't even factoring it in as a solution.
And yes, obviously nothing beats proper mic placement. However excellent mic placement and a Little Labs IBP on guitar = huge tone heaven.
Tuna
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14th March 2005
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#21 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Jan 2005 Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,319
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haven't had a chance to use it yet, but doesn't psp stereopack do phase correction? http://pspaudioware.com/plugins/stereopack.html
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14th March 2005
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#22 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin 90% of the studios I work in are not PC nor PC VST... hence making it pretty useless for people like me. I recognize this is my opinion, but I wouldn't consider a PC VST plug to be a practical software solution, and therfor wasn't even factoring it in as a solution.
And yes, obviously nothing beats proper mic placement. However excellent mic placement and a Little Labs IBP on guitar = huge tone heaven.
Tuna | Original question he asked about software for a PC | |
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14th March 2005
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#23 | | Guest |
Phase is the wrong word for the preamp example. Polarity is the proper word. You can have two waves with the same polarity, yet out of time, which creates phasing. Two different things.
The auto delay compensation of tracks in PT and Nuendo is not exact. It is averaged. Don't rely on it. I get a kick out of people that say that 1 sample +/- makes no difference. Right.
As far as PT goes, if you need to flip polarity, use the Invert function.
In the case of phasing between specific bands, you are screwed if you can't get it right the first time. Mic it right. There shouldn't have to be a plug for such a lack of basic skills IMO. Sliding tracks changes the relationship between mics in time, which sends your imaging and space in the crapper. Of course as a mixing engineer who didn't track, you have to deal with it with these tools.
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14th March 2005
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#24 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
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Originally Posted by Lowdbrent The auto delay compensation of tracks in PT and Nuendo is not exact. It is averaged. Don't rely on it. I get a kick out of people that say that 1 sample +/- makes no difference. Right. | Im curious to which delay compensation you're speaking of (as there are 3 types, record, plugin and hardware insert)... and where you got that information from. If you're like to talk about it privately or in a new thread, that'd be cool.
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14th March 2005
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#25 | | Guest | Quote: |
Originally Posted by SigmaDeltaAudio Im curious to which delay compensation you're speaking of (as there are 3 types, record, plugin and hardware insert)... and where you got that information from. If you're like to talk about it privately or in a new thread, that'd be cool. | From each of the company's respective reps and various plug in developers like Waves. I'd be happy to provide you with the sources directly.
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14th March 2005
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#26 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Lowdbrent From each of the company's respective reps and various plug in developers like Waves. I'd be happy to provide you with the sources directly. | Please do
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14th March 2005
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#28 | | Lives for gear
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,281
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Lowdbrent | What about nuendo?
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14th March 2005
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#29 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Dec 2004 Location: San Diego
Posts: 214
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Maybe I'm letting the cat of the bag a little bit here, but for those of you who doubt the coolness of the IBP, or a phase alignment tool that works as well for that matter, try this experiment on rock guitar:
1st d/l a demo
Assuming you have a great amp/player/guitar try this:
1. Set up 3 mics (preferably a Royer 121, a 57 and a 421 on the best sounding speaker into some decent pres - DUH!)
2. Mute mic 2 & 3. Move mic 1 around until you've found the spot where it sounds the best and mute it. Unmute mic 2, move it around until you've found the spot where it sounds the best and mute it. Repeat for Mic 3.
3. When you've found the best position for each individual mic independently, introduce the phase alignment tool. Chose you favorite 2 mics and keep the 3rd muted. Use the phase tool to find the best balance between the 2 mics. Unmute the 3rd mic. Use the phase tool to make it sound good with the first 2 blended mics…
If by this point you haven't opened a whole new world of coolness, I'll eat my own poo.
Tuna
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14th March 2005
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#30 | | Gear maniac
Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Philly
Posts: 182
Thread Starter | Quote: |
Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin 3. When you've found the best position for each individual mic independently, introduce the phase alignment tool. Chose you favorite 2 mics and keep the 3rd muted. Use the phase tool to find the best balance between the 2 mics. Unmute the 3rd mic. Use the phase tool to make it sound good with the first 2 blended mics… | I was seeing it this way ! But also as a tool to protect my mixes from bad takes mine, but I also often mix projects that I didn't trak. how could I have checked the phase during the takes ? )
Sam
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