does it exists ? software phase alignment tool ?

[paterno]

Originally Posted by djui5

So when you hit the phase button on your pre-amp it decides which frequencies to shift and which to leave alone?

When you hit the 'phase' button on your preamp you are changing [inverting, actually] the polarity of the entire signal 180 degrees.

John

[paterno]

Originally Posted by syra

I am not talking about "make sure the regions start at the same spot" but matching the positive and negative sides...I don't see how that is different from using a phaze alignment tool digital or analog...

Because within the waveform, even if you get them lined up by matching the peaks, phase shift can occur not in the entire frequency spectrum of the wave, but only in certain parts of the frequency spectrum of the wave. Frequency selective time delays. You may be lining up the strongest, most fundamental parts of a visual representation of the signal, but there are still upper harmonics that characterize the complex waveform that may be shifted.

John

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by djui5

So when you hit the phase button on your pre-amp it decides which frequencies to shift and which to leave alone?

nope, + signal becomes - at all frequencies...

Phase is frequency AND time dependent, therefor just aligning tracks does not work completely. Although often with low frequency signals, for example bass amp and bass DI, it can work. And in this case, making sure both signals have the same polarity, avoids a big low-end phase mess .

The IBP is a very cool and usefull tool though. I use it on every drum session (kick in and out), every time I'm DI-ing and micing the bass and always when using two mics on a guitar amp. Hyghly recommended .

Greetings,
Dirk

[krucifyx]

The IBP is a very cool and usefull tool though. I use it on every drum session (kick in and out), every time I'm DI-ing and micing the bass and always when using two mics on a guitar amp. Hyghly recommended

And would you consider plugs to be as much efficient at mixing stage, or would the IBP be a great improovment over what plugs could do ?

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by krucifyx

And would you consider plugs to be as much efficient at mixing stage, or would the IBP be a great improovment over what plugs could do ?

Why would I need a plug? I take care of the issue at the recording and don't have to think about it after it anymore...

For €500 it's a no-brainer. I don't know of any plug that does the same thing.

Good luck,
Dirk

[krucifyx]

Originally Posted by DirkB

Why would I need a plug? I take care of the issue at the recording and don't have to think about it after it anymore...

For €500 it's a no-brainer. I don't know of any plug that does the same thing.

Good luck,
Dirk

Yes, for sure !

You could have to remix someone else's work also ... But, the best way is still to worry about it while recording so you're done with it after ...

Thanks anyway ;)

Sam

[syra]

On further research, upon this threads guidance, it seems using the IBP and moving tracks inside the DAW is not the same thing...I'll be trying one soon...thanx a lot slutz...for making me spend more money... I HATE YOU!!!!!!!

[Ruudman]

While the Tritone PhaseTone looks great, it still suffers from no delay comp
due to Pluggo....

So I say, inpired by Syra's avatar in Southparkish language:
I æm sø pissed øf right nøøøw..!


ruudman

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by krucifyx

And would you consider plugs to be as much efficient at mixing stage, or would the IBP be a great improovment over what plugs could do ?

The IBP is a great tool, although I'm still learning how to use it. Sometimes it's hard to tell if a IBP treated track is really better or just different, after a while you'll start to get the hang of it though. I think I'm hearing phase issues much better now.

Time shifting tracks in a DAW is still useful in some cases like say a pair of IBP treated inside-outside kick tracks. A while ago I was just STUNNED how much bigger/better the kick got after I shifted one of the tracks.

Another cool thing about the IBP is that you get a killer DI. It's very versatile too, you can for example use it to split a bass to DI and amp (or SansAmp in my case) and phase-treat the direct portion. The IBP also acts as a reamp device and has got a seperate buffered instrument out for running long cables to amps.

The only problem with the IBP is that once you'll start using it you'll want another one, though I might be going for the more affordable IBP Jr. eventually;i t's 'just' a phase aligner without the DI and other features.

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

I use TA (time adujuster) in ProTools to check phase, and to help dial in, say, multiple guitar mics on one cabinet during a mix. This is virtually the same thing as physically moving the waveforms, but without doing "destructive" editing. That being said, doing it this way PALES in comparison to using this tool (aka IBP Phase Tool) during tracking - which actually uses a system of filters to adujst phase.

Great, I've wanted to ask this about the IBP type tools for a while now.
I have been going along thinking that there are two (global) phase parameters; time (i.e. distance) and polarity.
What and why is phase adjustment by filters different? Is it not still a time shift at all frequencies? With a setting of say '90 degrees', isn't it still 90 at one frequency and something different at other frequencies? And how the heck do you have time/phase slipping different from one frequiency and another due to mic distance diferences at the source? Volume, proximity tone changes sure, but phase? (This part wasn't from Tunasafedolphin by the way..

Wayne

[Ted Nightshade]

The IBP is a great tool. The trouble is, it can be very time consuming to find the right setting. The next best thing to the right setting is not 5 degrees away- sometimes it's 40 or 70 degrees away or whatever. There will be several sweet spots around the dial, with bands of undesirable settings in between. I've often spent time dialing in what seemed like the right spot, only to find that the most in-phase and thus best sounding spot was a ways away.

So there is a real need for some kind of computer assist here. I can't stand DAW's, so I'd like to see it in a standalone box. Computer assisted IBP. The computer would find the place where the phase was right and drop you off there. Then you could fine tune with a knob IBP-style but over just a few degrees. There's an amazing amount of action in those few degrees. If you have a drum kit with a close mic and a distant mic, you can mix the kit just by tweaking those last couple degrees. Just so, and the snare comes out- a bit different, and now the bass drum is really full- you can find the right balance for the kit just by adjusting the phase ever so slightly.

[cymatics]

Another option for less than half the price of the Voxengo plug is Cakewalk Sonitus:fx Phase

[Zooey]

Originally Posted by tunasafedolphin

What a great topic. I'm not entirely sure why many DAW users feel that moving waveforms around fixes phase problems.

Because phase problems that are caused by latency can be corrected by compensating for that latency.

Phase problems that are caused by something else obviously can't be corrected in this way.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Ted Nightshade

The IBP is a great tool. The trouble is, it can be very time consuming to find the right setting. The next best thing to the right setting is not 5 degrees away- sometimes it's 40 or 70 degrees away or whatever. There will be several sweet spots around the dial, with bands of undesirable settings in between. I've often spent time dialing in what seemed like the right spot, only to find that the most in-phase and thus best sounding spot was a ways away.

I totally agree. As I stated above, I'm new to the IBP and guilty of having tested the limits of a few musician's patience with endless adjusting and dialing. ('Just gimme one more minute...' )

You're right about the elusive sweet spots but you could spend as much time (without an IBP) by searching for the right placement of say 2 mics on a guitar cab.

I can live with the dial options but what really throws me off at the moment is the choice between 90 or 180 degrees and hi/low phase center.

Any help on this would really be appreciated

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

I totally agree. As I stated above, I'm new to the IBP and guilty of having tested the limits of a few musician's patience with endless adjusting and dialing. ('Just gimme one more minute...' )

You're right about the elusive sweet spots but you could spend as much time (without an IBP) by searching for the right placement of say 2 mics on a guitar cab.

I can live with the dial options but what really throws me off at the moment is the choice between 90 or 180 degrees and hi/low phase center.

Any help on this would really be appreciated

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

The low phase center is strictly for bass instruments. It diverts all resources to the bass end. For full-bandwidth stuff, stick with hi phase center.

You could live your life in 180 and with the polarity button have all phase angles covered. But, if you want finer control and the right position turns out to be within the 90 degree range, you can use the 90 degree setting. The trouble with this is, once you find you are in the eligible 90 degrees by using the 180 position and the polarity button, it's a real pain to switch to 90 degrees and find the sweet spot all over again! just to have finer control.

It's cool that these boxes are so small but a big knob would be so nice! And it's damned hard to read the tiny print under the buttons. As usual, I make do with memorizing the controls- but this stuff is hard on a session if you've never used an IBP before.

BTW one of Manley's new devices has a phase adjustment control included. I'm awful curious to see how Hutch manages these issues! I can just about make out 4 choices for "center frequency"...

http://manleylabs.com/containerpages/micutilitybox.html

[Wayne]

..."A variable All-Pass filter on the monitor output allows one to intuitively align a pair of mics or a mic and DI in the time domain..."

...and from what I've found on all-pass networks, this delay as noted by phase' is only at a given center frequency. But apparently above or below this point they become less phase (again time?) coherent than the source.
Am I getting closer?
Wayne

[littlelabs]

Hey thought I would chime in, I am more of a lurker than a blurber lately. It's early and I am still a little toasted from St. Pattys. The IBP 90 / 180 is really only for single note sounds and was originally designed for sub woof use or anything with a very lumpy phase response, so if you didn't need to go through multiple all pass stages you didn't have to. Same with the LO / Hi center. In most situations keep those buttons out The IBP gets around the center frequency issue by having seperate passive all pass filters that have a low pole and a high pole so you get a phase vs. frequency response curve which attempts to double the phase shift as you double the frequency. So when you go up and down the scale you can keep the A note and the G note in Phase. Notice I say attempt because with an analog filter this gets complicated but so is the unpredictable and infinitely variable nature of Phase so basically the IBP uses a phase vs frequency curve which was selected after experimenting to work more than it doesn't. Ok I 'm going to bed
g'night y'all
Jonathan

[Ted Nightshade]

Great to hear from you Jonathan. I didn't realize that about the 90/180 button. I like a short&sweet path so that's good to know.
I just almost understand all the center frequency talk.

[pan60]

Originally Posted by djui5

Thanks for answering my question....althought it wasen't really a question. I was being a smart a$$.
Not professional...I know. Sorry.

haha funny

I was being a smart a$$.

well i got a laugh

[drongo]

anyone have a ETA for the Tritone Phase tool? It seems like it's being coming soon for a while....very keen to try it out and fix some multi mic recordings I did a while back

cheers
Ant

[Kenny Gioia]

Of course you could get it right the first time but not everybody does.

Everybody speeds up a session when necessary and this tool helps incredibly.

If you don't think you need it, it's only because you haven't tried it.

[kosi]

Originally Posted by littlelabs

The IBP gets around the center frequency issue by having seperate passive all pass filters that have a low pole and a high pole so you get a phase vs. frequency response curve which attempts to double the phase shift as you double the frequency. So when you go up and down the scale you can keep the A note and the G note in Phase.

What ?
Sorry, I'm too stupid to get this. What is "the center Freqency issue" ?
Which frequency do I double, when I go up the scale ? The A and the G note ?

[doorknocker]

As I said before, I think the IBP is worth the money just for the DI. It's AMAZING! I never dreamed that I'd like a direct guitar signal but DI-ing a clean Tele or Danelectro 12-string with an Analog Man BiComprossor in the chain has been a sonic blessing......
I understand (not really though in technical terms) that IBP-ing and track shifting in PT are two different things but my experience has been that:
-The IBP changes the 'frequency center' when applied in the tracking stage,I used it for say close kick/front of kick and it definitely changes the character of the combined sound, it's only that mostly I don't really know if it's better or just different. In other words, I worry about changing the sound where maybe a 'track neutral-check it while mixing' approach would serve me better?
On the other hand, I just recorded a live session with a few country guys. There was precious little time to set up and I worried about the upright bass, an instrument that I'm not too familiar with recording-wise. Luckily he had a pick-up in the bass, so I combined that with an Telefunken 421 pointed somewhere above the F-hole/hi-string side. I wasn't really sure what I was doing so I kept the IBP out of the game for fear of messing up the sound even further. What really surprised me though was that when I got down to mixing the tracks, shifting the tracks made a hell of a difference.
I got the best sound by moving back the mic track a few milliseconds in PT. A day and night difference really, I had the same experience with close kick/FOK, it changed the sound drastically and much for the better.
What I'm trying to get at is that while the IBP gives me sonic options, track shifting in PT gives me impact. The bass and the kick really became very punchy and sat perfectly in the mix after the shifting treatment. The IBP never really gave me 'punch' so far, maybe it's just down to my inexperience though.


Wonder whether anybody had similar experiences?

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[kosi]

My experiences were different. I always get a funny feeling, when I shift around my tracks, I have the feeling, that it makes the low end somehow unarticulate. With the IBP, I foodle around, til the sound is right, usually in about 10 to 20 seconds I'm done. But I never record with it, I use it only in the mix.

[ProgressAudio]

Hi guys!

I thought you might like to know that my company is currently developing a phase-correction software tool for the PC VST platform, and it will be available by the end of this month (May).

As well as the usual manual operation it will offer an 'auto' mode to automatically find a setting that gives the minimum amount of cancellation in the signal due to out of phase frequencies.

I'll give you more details when its finished, if you're interested!

Regards,
Alex

Progress Audio

[junior]

cool. keep us posted... btw, any chance of a mac version? tia...

[ProgressAudio]

Originally Posted by junior

cool. keep us posted... btw, any chance of a mac version? tia...

Will do. We're PC only at the moment I'm afraid, although I'm hoping we'll be able to support Macs as well in the future. It all depends how the pc stuff goes (its a new company..)

[ProgressAudio]

Well Progress Audio's phase alignment tool has now been released!
Click here to read more and download the free demo or buy it.

It looks a little like this:


Its available for Windows VST.

Thanks for checking it out
Alex
Progress Audio

[kosi]

Too bad, it's only PC VST...