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Riad
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#31
6th August 2005
Old 6th August 2005
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundeslutz
agreed
Once again, I disagree.

Mixing in the box doesn't quiet do it for me. You can do all the techniques describe in this thread and the stereo image still doesn't sound as it should.

For reasons I do not understand, summing out to an analog mixing board or summing device opens up the mix. In part by focusing the mono channel helping create room for the mix.

So yes, I do think that certain gear will help your mix's stereo image.

Rob
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#32
6th August 2005
Old 6th August 2005
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riad
For reasons I do not understand, summing out to an analog mixing board or summing device opens up the mix.
Rob

Not all analog mixing boards do this.

Some have real shitty panpots and a lot of crosstalk between channels which actually "smallen" the image.

For this reason the wide sounding consoles aren't cheap.
Riad
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#33
6th August 2005
Old 6th August 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Not all analog mixing boards do this.

Some have real shitty panpots and a lot of crosstalk between channels which actually "smallen" the image.

For this reason the wide sounding consoles aren't cheap.
Yes, absolutely.
#34
6th August 2005
Old 6th August 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riad
For reasons I do not understand, summing out to an analog mixing board or summing device opens up the mix. In part by focusing the mono channel helping create room for the mix.
I hear this too, but not after analogue summing (which I haven't tried) but after having my mixes mastered through a high end analogue chain. The center channel becomes more focussed, the mix glues together, but strangely enough also seperates "better", I definitely hear more depth and more identifiable panning. Maybe it's a transformer thing, but I'm set on adding a top analogue comp and eq with a Lavry AD/DA to my mixbus...

Greetings,
Dirk
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#35
7th August 2005
Old 7th August 2005
  #35
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As far as I know there are risks involved in the stereo image effect. The risk is really that you might destroy the whole mix. A good stereo image is really key when it comes to making a CD sound professional, the problem though is that it's very easy to create an unrealistic stereo image in the mix, that the mastering engineer later has a hard time in making realistic. I would say that the best thing you can do is to leave the stereo image thing to the mastering engineer and avoid applying all kinds of stereo image plugin effects in the mixing phase. So this means you should avoid panning something all the way to 100% L or 100% R, but rather panpot in the range 0 - 50% in the mixing phase. A mix that sounds a bit "small" or "dull" is a lot better than one that sounds irritating. If the stereo field seems wider than the placement of the monitors in the control room, chances are good that your panning and EQ need some tweaking. Stereo doubled guitar tracks can sound huge and feel like they are coming from everywhere until you hit the "mono" button when they dissapear completely. A great deal of "loudness" is actually coming from a realistic stereo image. Let the mastering engineer do it and concentrate on getting a balanced and pleasing mix to listen to during the mixing phase. When you enhance and enlarge the mix in the mastering phase it should have a positive effect, not a negative one. Generally a good rule is to not overdo anything in the mixing phase. Keep it clean, clear, realistic and fresh with a headroom of about -6dBFS and make sure no phasing or cancellation is present on the mix. Then give the mix to a good mastering engineer that adds a realistic stereo image. Here are some things you can do in the mixing phase to prepare the mix for a great stereo image in the mastering phase:

- Use cutoff techniques
- Use panpot in the range 0-50% to L or R, focus on 25%L - 25%R
- Eliminate phasing and cancellation issues
- Make the mix equally balanced as mono as in stereo
- Use effects carefully, especially compressors and reverbs
- Don't apply stereo, compressor or reverb effects on the stereo main out bus
#36
7th August 2005
Old 7th August 2005
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyCrazyMan
As far as I know there are risks involved in the stereo image effect. The risk is really that you might destroy the whole mix. A good stereo image is really key when it comes to making a CD sound professional, the problem though is that it's very easy to create an unrealistic stereo image in the mix, that the mastering engineer later has a hard time in making realistic. I would say that the best thing you can do is to leave the stereo image thing to the mastering engineer and avoid applying all kinds of stereo image plugin effects in the mixing phase. So this means you should avoid panning something all the way to 100% L or 100% R, but rather panpot in the range 0 - 50% in the mixing phase. A mix that sounds a bit "small" or "dull" is a lot better than one that sounds irritating. If the stereo field seems wider than the placement of the monitors in the control room, chances are good that your panning and EQ need some tweaking. Stereo doubled guitar tracks can sound huge and feel like they are coming from everywhere until you hit the "mono" button when they dissapear completely. A great deal of "loudness" is actually coming from a realistic stereo image. Let the mastering engineer do it and concentrate on getting a balanced and pleasing mix to listen to during the mixing phase. When you enhance and enlarge the mix in the mastering phase it should have a positive effect, not a negative one. Generally a good rule is to not overdo anything in the mixing phase. Keep it clean, clear, realistic and fresh with a headroom of about -6dBFS and make sure no phasing or cancellation is present on the mix. Then give the mix to a good mastering engineer that adds a realistic stereo image. Here are some things you can do in the mixing phase to prepare the mix for a great stereo image in the mastering phase:

- Use cutoff techniques
- Use panpot in the range 0-50% to L or R, focus on 25%L - 25%R
- Eliminate phasing and cancellation issues
- Make the mix equally balanced as mono as in stereo
- Use effects carefully, especially compressors and reverbs
- Don't apply stereo, compressor or reverb effects on the stereo main out bus
This is some of the biggest BS I've read here in a long time, especially the bit about leaving the stereo image to the master engineer .

Greetings,
Dirk
#37
7th August 2005
Old 7th August 2005
  #37
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^^ Agreed, Dirk. most of that doesn't make sense to me.
#38
7th August 2005
Old 7th August 2005
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Have to agree with Dirk too....

Been doing a lot of work with stereo imaging recently and get some interesting results.... One of the main ones is how 'non stereo' a panned mono channel is!
It is actually useless and lifeless until it's brought to life with other audio clues like reverb good multiple paths. It proves quite clearly that differences in level (using a pan control) is a very poor way of getting spacial information.
I know that all this is old hat... everyone knows (or should know) that direction is more to do with phase than level, but it's nice to prove it!

With an accurate monitoring system, the recordings that really stand out as being truly 3-dimentional are those created with M-S mic tecniques; everything else you have to struggle with, and then get disappointed when the stereo image is poor, or it all sounds flat.

Ted Fletcher
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#39
7th August 2005
Old 7th August 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedF
With an accurate monitoring system, the recordings that really stand out as being truly 3-dimentional are those created with M-S mic tecniques; everything else you have to struggle with, and then get disappointed when the stereo image is poor, or it all sounds flat.
Man, I did some drum recording experimenting the other day and put up an MS set up with a U195 and a R-121 for drum room. Unbelievable... Never actually did this on a paying session, but on next project where there will be some open sounding acoustic songs, I'm going to use it. Starting with the mono room (U195) then adding close kick and snare to get a nice balance (IBP on close kick to match with room mic) and then fade up the sides . Adding in the overheads to get some L/R information on toms and cymbals and done, brilliant.

Greetings,
Dirk
Riad
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7th August 2005
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You need a mic with a figure 8 polar pattern to do this right?
#41
7th August 2005
Old 7th August 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB


This is some of the biggest BS I've read here in a long time, especially the bit about leaving the stereo image to the master engineer .

Greetings,
Dirk
i agree as well!
#42
7th August 2005
Old 7th August 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riad
You need a mic with a figure 8 polar pattern to do this right?
Yep.
Although with a stereo matched pair using as sides I guess it could also work somewhat, but haven't tried that.


Greetings,
Dirk
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