Studio Treatment

[basement]

I'm building a studio in my basement. I've got all the high-end gear a guy could ever want. The only thing I haven't done is treated my room. It's a 25' X 20' or so room. 1/2 the wall space is shelves with curtains. The other half of wall space is cinder blocks with carpet over them. The floor is carpet and foam over cement. The ceiling is about 7' high at most places.

Here's my question. At the moment, I'm only recording our Christian pop/rock band. We don't mind a little liveliness in the room -- we're kinda after a Green Day-ish, My Sharona-ish kinda vibe. Is it possible to get a pro sound in such a room with such a low ceiling without treating it? If I do treat it minimally, e.g., by putting up some micro traps or auralex over the drum set, etc. will it have a huge difference? In other words, is it worth it to invest in such a space to improve it so that I can capture a pro-level sound (whatever that means) or is it impossible without high ceilings, wood on the floor, etc., etc.

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!

[tINY]

The biggest improvement will be some corner traps for bass. That way you can have a more even response from about 200Hz down.




-tINY

[basement]

Anyone use Auralex diffusors? Thought it might make sense to mount some of those on the ceiling above the drums and monitor station (or maybe some Real Traps Micro Traps).

[HSL]

Bass trapping will help, most of your sound will go up and out of the house though. If your room sounds ok when your rehersing in it you should be able to record it well too. The low ceiling will be your biggest problem for drums. I record my blues band rehersals in your typical basement and the best thing I've found for the low ceiling drum overheads are the old realistic pzm mics. I just screw them to the floor joist over the drum kit and they give me an extremely clear overhead sound without the ceiling reflections mucking things up. I could email you a short mp3 clip if you'd like.


-Doug Hise

-edit: I would also add, that we play at a reasonable volume and not crazy loud. That energy has to go somewhere and there will likely be a volume that your space sounds best at.

[Ethan Winer]

base,

> Is it possible to get a pro sound in such a room with such a low ceiling without treating it? <

Without treating it? No.

But you can get great results with the right kind of treatment. As tINY said, bass traps should be your Number One priority. But you also need to treat the ceiling over the drum set, otherwise you'll get a hollow boxy sound from comb filtering into the overhead microphones. For a low ceiling I don't recommend diffusion. You'll get much better results with absorption.

--Ethan

[tINY]

I like the PZM idea for overheads. I think you may have to play with the drums a little to get it right, though.




-tINY

[Jax]

How about we clarify and get consensus on what is considered a low ceiling?

9 feet is about the cutoff point, IMO. At that height I think you're pushing it.. get any lower and the problems get worse and worse.

My ceilings are 8'6" and it takes some doing to avoid comb filtering in the drum overheads. I hang angled panels over the kit to slightly absorb (with just foam at the moment) and redirect the frequencies.

[basement]

So, it looks like it comes down to (1) using a PZM or (2) creating an apparently high ceiling using absorb. material. Those of you in the know -- which is a better choice?

Thanks!

[HSL]

How about both? Check out Ethan's web site if you haven't already. There's some extremely valuable info on room acoustics there and much thanks for making it available to everyone!

-Doug

[NathanEldred]

Get rid of the carpet, it's the number one 'make it sound like crap' achiever...I would rather have cement any day of the week. 1) Bass traps in the corners, 2) absorption on the ceiling above players and 3) absorption on single parallel wall (it's not always necessary or even musical to treat both parrellel walls...once the sounds bounces and then is absorbed it's not going anywhere. Not a rule though). Stay away from foam, it's complete garbage. No matter how you do it, being in a small room isn't the greatest of places to be, but with the right treatment it will sound balanced.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

Get rid of the carpet, it's the number one 'make it sound like crap' achiever...I would rather have cement any day of the week. 1) Bass traps in the corners, 2) absorption on the ceiling above players and 3) absorption on single parallel wall (it's not always necessary or even musical to treat both parrellel walls...once the sounds bounces and then is absorbed it's not going anywhere. Not a rule though). Stay away from foam, it's complete garbage. No matter how you do it, being in a small room isn't the greatest of places to be, but with the right treatment it will sound balanced.

ditto ...

maybe put some plywood under that kit



Ethan's Mondo traps are just sick for sucking up bass, maybe get 2 for the corners closest to the drums

4-6 micro HF traps are great for the ceiling above drums ... and maybe do 2 walls...

Spend $1000 and you'll be shocked ... make a joyous sound!




Over the years, many artists and bands blew up from recordings made in less than stellar spaces. converted offices, etc. the big studios grew out of the money that came from these recordings, and the recordings in the fancy rooms were not always as good. sometimes better, yet not always as good.

every space is unique and can be great with work and ears.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by lucey

maybe put some plywood under that kit

Funny you should mention that, as I'm installing a wood floor to go under kits as we speak. There's a little more to it than just throwing down a sheet of plywood and setting up the kit, though not much more. It can't really be done effectively without the use of some carpet.

For anybody who's interested in doing this, here are some key considerations to keep in mind before installing:

- Get a large enough sheet of plywood to accommodate even a monster kit if you record bands that bring in their own drums.

- Kick and hi hat pedals will slide over the wood if there is nothing to keep them in place, which makes playing a kit atop the plywood virtually a lost cause.
Most pedals have hooking velcro attached to the bottom, so cut up some of that carpet you're trying to throw away and staple (do not glue - important) it where the pedals will generally go for most kits. There are two potential problems with gluing the carpet down: if a left-handed drummer comes in, the hi hat pedal will be on the opposite side of a rightie's kit, and if the leftie uses a double pedal or two kicks, the problem of having it glued down becomes even worse. Staples are easily removed, and then you can place the carpet where you need it. Use a carpet-stapling hammer (home depot, etc.) for this, not a paper stapler (I know it sounds obvious, but...)

- The kick will move away from the drummer as it's played unless there are a couple patches of stapled-down carpet or thick rubber where the kick spurs meet the ground.

- Wood hoped kicks would see some damage from lying atop the plywood, so staple down enough carpet to cover the dimensions of any kicks that will sit on top of it. Don't staple anywhere that the kick will touch the carpet or you run the risk of the staples carving into the wood hoops.

Hope this helps somebody!

P.s. - Do not use furry velcro instead of carpet! It makes placing the pedals much more difficult because it's a lot tougher to pull up and adjust the pedals once the velcro is together.

[Waylon]

On the under the kit front... the best thing I have found is to get a large commerical aera rug like they use at the entrance ot shps and such ( think 6x9 ) and lay it so that the carpet side is facing down ontothe carper floor, giving you a nice reflective rubber surface to set the kit on... works awesome for me in 99% of situations

[heartsoffire]

I've spent a lot of time reading and researching acoustical treatment. My last house had 7 foot ceilings. The room in the house I have now has nearly a 10foot ceiling, but has slanted walls.

The most valuable information and assistance were from two sites:

http://forum.studiotips.com//index.php
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php

I decided to go the DIY route and built my own bass traps with Superchunks (http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=535). I also found a distributor of rockwool and built some basic frames and covered with burlap. My wife, was very skeptical until we got just some of them up. She noticed an immediate difference in the evenness of the sound. While not perfect, it is 100 times better.

My total investment was around $450 for 29 2x4 panels (some 3" and others 4") and 4 superchunk bass traps. I also have 3 Auralex diffusers hanging from my ceiling.

For my tracking room (another bedroom) I use some 2" Auralex and some Auralex bass traps because I had a lot of it from my previous location. This deals enough of the first reflections, combing, etc that makes it a nice room for recording.

Without a good room, you will always struggle. It's worth the investment of time, effort, and money. You can get a lot of treatment if you DIY for a lot less. My control room is not dead, but has enough in it that I don't have excessive standing waves and my stereo image is tighter than ever.

The two sites listed above are very much "product independent." I've received some great advice. One of the guys took my room measurements, furnishings, and other factors, ran the calclulations to provide me with a direction on how much treatment and where I needed to focus.

Take some time to study and learn as much as possible. You'll not regret it.

Mark

[wwittman]

I agree that without a good room you won't get a good sound.
Where I disagree is that you don't yet KNOW if it's a good room.

I'd try it first and THEN fix what you need to fix.

We recorded Relish (Joan Osborne) in a house with no treatment at all.
Sounds "pro" to me. But then I'm biased.

[brendondp]

Sheepskin - that's right, you heard me - has been a really good absorber of high frequencies when placed in strategic places. Stapled to peg board (or whatever you can find) has worked when we've been on the cheap. While I agree that stuff like the Real Traps (or the DIY solutions mentioned on the above site's) will ultimately provide the best improvement, taking time to experiment with a few cheapy options helps you gain a better understanding of what rooms need and how interactions (especially with drumkits) work.

Also, your overheads mics may simply be unsuited for the room and your drummer. What do you have?

Cheers,

bdp

[elninojesus]

Question for Ethan or anyone esle-

Would panel traps made with 703 do the trick for the ceiling? I was about to make some of these for all my corners but I really need to do the ceiling as well. My understanding is that the 703 absorbs more high/mid than 705 but would this fix/help a low ceiling?


Mark

[heartsoffire]

Testing your room is a prerequisite to treating. One "simple" test is to play specific frequencies, sit in the mix position and listen to hear if all of the frequencies are the same volume.

Also, walk around the room and see if you hear nulls and buildups of different frequencies.

If you don't hear them at the same amplitude, then you should treat. Most people agree that broadband treatment is the better way to go unless you REALLY know which frequencies you want to target.

There are some general rules of thumb about treating. One is to treat early reflections with appropriate absorbsion. Also, treating corners with appropriate bass traps. Again, these are general and not always required if you have a great room.

Also, having balance between the sides. In other words, your mix position should be in the middle from left to right. Some suggest exactly in the middle. Others reccommend slightly to one side. It will really depend on the size of the room and where your null points are. This is where the stereo imaging comes in.

Be careful just treating high frequencies. I have never read any article or book that didn't warn against this. Personal experience supports this, especially in less than perfect rooms. Most of our problems are below 250hz. Treating the high frequenies will give a false sense of balance and our mixes won't translate well at the low end.

Also, treating the high frequencies is the easiest thing to do, just beware.

Good luck,

Mark

[heartsoffire]

Originally Posted by elninojesus

Question for Ethan or anyone esle-

Would panel traps made with 703 do the trick for the ceiling? I was about to make some of these for all my corners but I really need to do the ceiling as well. My understanding is that the 703 absorbs more high/mid than 705 but would this fix/help a low ceiling?


Mark

Check out this website. Just about all types are materials are listed and their absorption coefficients.

http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

[Ethan Winer]

Mark,

> Would panel traps made with 703 do the trick for the ceiling? <

Panel traps are tuned traps made with a wood front panel, 703 inside, and sealed air tight. Are you asking about that, or about plain rigid fiberglass used for a bass trap?

> I was about to make some of these for all my corners <

Use 3 or 4 inch thick 703 or 705. My tests show 705 working better than 703 at the lowest frequencies, but the improvement becomes less as the fiberglass is made thicker. At 3 or 4 inches thick the 705 is better, but it costs twice as much as 703. Once you get to a foot thick the less dense 703 is fine. But 1 foot thick is not really needed for good results.

--Ethan

[elninojesus]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Mark,
Panel traps are tuned traps made with a wood front panel, 703 inside, and sealed air tight. Are you asking about that, or about plain rigid fiberglass used for a bass trap?

Yeah I guess I didnt mean panel traps, just upholstered fiberglass on the ceiling.



Mark

[heartsoffire]

You get good results when you take, for instance, 4" inch rockwool or fiberglass and put an air gap behind of equal value. Some testing has shown that you get almost equal absorption as 8".

On the front and side walls of my control room, I have 4" 2'x4' rockwool panels covered with burlap with a 4" airgap behind.

When you have a low ceiling, you need more absorption due to iincreased reflections, especially with drum overheads. In my previous location where I had a 7' ceiling, my overhead mics were not too far from the ceiling. Too much reflection would have smeared the sound. Also, with snare and hi-hat, your going to get a lot of early reflections, again smearling the sound.

Mark

[heartsoffire]

One more thing about your question, Mark. If you have empty cieling joists, you can fill them with rockwool or fiberglass and then cover with upholstery. If you have enough room, instead covering the ceiling with upholstery, you could add another thinner layer (i.e. 2") of fiberglass with a small airgap - forming like a cloud above the mix position.

I've known of guys that have filled their celing with over 1 foot of absorption! A bit overkill from my perspective.

Mark