Solo Piano Demo Of The Bardstown Bosendorfer

Bardstown Audio · 8th March 2005, 09:03 PM

Here is a link to a solo piano demo of the Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Model 290. This demo features a great deal of use of the damper pedal down samples and also lower notes on this beautiful piano as well.

This demo was performed by Alan Russell.

http://www.bardstownaudio.com/mp3/dreams.mp3

Enjoy!

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com

max cooper · 11th March 2005, 05:05 PM

Wow...you guys have a disk of classic accordions! Excellent!

Sharp11 · 11th March 2005, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bardstown Audio

Here is a link to a solo piano demo of the Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Model 290. This demo features a great deal of use of the damper pedal down samples and also lower notes on this beautiful piano as well.

This demo was performed by Alan Russell.

http://www.bardstownaudio.com/mp3/dreams.mp3

Enjoy!

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com

Beautifully played!

It's a nice sound, unfortunately, the mid-range suffers from the same artificiality all sampled pianos contain; that lack of complex harmonic interaction, when playing chords, that only a real piano can give you.

This problem is made worse, IMO, by the increasingly realistic and large sample sets, one's ear expects to hear a real piano, and then comes the artificial mids.

Still, this is a nice effort and certainly well worthy of purchasing for anyone without access to the real thing.

Most of my criticisms probably wouldn't show up in an ensemble recording.

Ed

sounddevisor · 12th March 2005, 05:45 PM

I agree with Sharp11's comments - very nice samples, definitely some of the best I've heard and undoubtedly fantastic for ensemble use.

Unfortunately, no matter how well played and recorded the samples are, I have yet to hear a really convincing solo piano performance from a sampler. I think the insurmountable problem is that the sampler can't get the sympathetic resonance a real instrument has - when you play a note, say a "D," with the damper pedal down, you will get a very complicated mix of resonances from the piano - some general resonance from all the strings, but particualr sympathetic resonance from other strings that have a harmonic relationship to the note(s) that you played - in the case of a "D," you will get the other D strings, the nearby A strings, and probably the F#s near the note you played all ringing to one degree or another.* Since this effect will be different for every note and every combination of notes that you play, it can't really be simulated or substituted for by using artificial reverberation or even by sampling the resonance of the piano. Perhaps in theory you could use some sort of computation to figure out the exact harmonic balance of resonating strings for every possible not or combination of notes, but with 88 keys and even a moderate number of velocity levels, you will very quickly run into an astronomical number of possibilites.

One other small point - in the information on the website, you talk about sampling each note of the piano 9 different ways, for a total of 88x9 = 792 samples. A Bosendorfer Imperial has, I believe, 97 keys - shouldn't that be 873 samples?

- sounddevisor

*footnote - you can play around with this effect as follows: put down a key on a piano without actually sounding the note. Keeping that key down, strongly strike a note a fifth or an octave above and immediately release it (staccatto, in other words). You should hear the note you are holding ringing quite clearly. The composer Karlheinz Stockhausen notates this effect in his solo piano work "Pianostucke."

YES, I am a piano geek!!

kevinc · 13th March 2005, 04:31 AM

I agree with the above statements about it not being quite there in terms of mimicing the real thing.

However it DOES get pretty close even in solo in the example. It`s very good for a sample.

I tend to use piano as a layer amongst many instruments as opposed to a main instrument so I`m probably going to pick this program up one of these days.

With all the loud rockn`roll guitars surrounding it I bet I could pass it off as the real deal !

Bardstown Audio · 13th March 2005, 04:07 PM

I thank all of you for your comments and compliments on the Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Model 290.

Even though a Bosendorfer Model 290 has additional lower notes below A0, I only sampled and used the usual 88 keys on the Bardstown Bosendorfer. The purpose of those extra lower notes on a Bosendorfer 290 are to provide sympathetic resonance from those lower strings in order to add to the characteristic sound of the Bosendorfer 290 itself, rather than to be actually played in legitimate music.

Kip McGinnis
Bardstown Audio
www.bardstownaudio.com

Sounds Great · 13th March 2005, 09:44 PM

A real grand piano is a very dynamic instrument. I haven't yet heard a sampled piano that isn't an obvious "re-creation" of the real thing. Including the mp3 you provided.

Back to the drawing board, I guess. Perhaps somebody will figure out a way to do DSD sampling? That could prove interesting.

On a positive note, I recently bought a 1979 7 foot Mason & Hamlin model BB grand piano.

It is being tweaked right now (in Memphis) and will soon be on a truck heading for my house. I have three young-uns taking piano lessons right now, so I used them as an excuse for buying a real good piano.

zmix · 16th March 2005, 07:32 AM

I was not very impressed. The G above middle C is weird, like the EMU module, fuzzy...

HOWEVER: I put my monitors in MONO, and I was much more impressed by the tonality...

sounddevisor · 16th March 2005, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

On a positive note, I recently bought a 1979 7 foot Mason & Hamlin model BB grand piano.

Hey, Sounds Great, congrats on the Mason & Hamlin. I'll be very interested to hear how you feel about it once you get it in your possession and play it for a while. I've always been a pretty hardcore Steinway guy, but I recently compared a new Mason & Hamlin BB to a new (New York) Steinway B, and I was really surprised at how well the Mason & Hamlin stood up. I think I ultimately scored the Steinway a little higher, but not by much - definitely not as much as I would have expected.

On the other hand, a few years ago I played a couple of rebuilt M&H BBs that I was far less impressed with - I don't remember what years they were, and it's just as likely that the rebuild didn't really bring them up to their full potential.

Anyhow, give us a post once you've had your BB under your fingers for a minute and let us know what you think of it.

-sounddevisor

Football · 16th March 2005, 07:05 PM

This demo sounds far too "sampled piano" sounding for me.

Sounds Great · 16th March 2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sounddevisor

On the other hand, a few years ago I played a couple of rebuilt M&H BBs that I was far less impressed with - I don't remember what years they were, and it's just as likely that the rebuild didn't really bring them up to their full potential.

This one has never been rebuilt and is still in great working condition, so I hope this is a plus. The tech setting it up wasn't completely happy though, and decided to install all new dampers. I think we will be happy with it.

Quote:

Anyhow, give us a post once you've had your BB under your fingers for a minute and let us know what you think of it.

You got it!

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8th March 2005, 09:03 PM	#1
Bardstown Audio Gear interested Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bardstown, Kentucky USA Posts: 13	Solo Piano Demo Of The Bardstown Bosendorfer Here is a link to a solo piano demo of the Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Model 290. This demo features a great deal of use of the damper pedal down samples and also lower notes on this beautiful piano as well. This demo was performed by Alan Russell. http://www.bardstownaudio.com/mp3/dreams.mp3 Enjoy! Kip McGinnis Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com

13th March 2005, 04:31 AM	#5
kevinc Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Beantown Posts: 2,464	I agree with the above statements about it not being quite there in terms of mimicing the real thing. However it DOES get pretty close even in solo in the example. It`s very good for a sample. I tend to use piano as a layer amongst many instruments as opposed to a main instrument so I`m probably going to pick this program up one of these days. With all the loud rockn`roll guitars surrounding it I bet I could pass it off as the real deal ! __________________ - Kev

13th March 2005, 09:44 PM	#7
Sounds Great Gear Guru Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Twin Cities, USA Posts: 10,953	A real grand piano is a very dynamic instrument. I haven't yet heard a sampled piano that isn't an obvious "re-creation" of the real thing. Including the mp3 you provided. Back to the drawing board, I guess. Perhaps somebody will figure out a way to do DSD sampling? That could prove interesting. On a positive note, I recently bought a 1979 7 foot Mason & Hamlin model BB grand piano. It is being tweaked right now (in Memphis) and will soon be on a truck heading for my house. I have three young-uns taking piano lessons right now, so I used them as an excuse for buying a real good piano. __________________ You awake with a start To just the beating of your heart. Just one man beneath the sky, Just two ears, just two eyes.

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11th March 2005, 05:05 PM	#2
max cooper Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: tx Posts: 8,819	Wow...you guys have a disk of classic accordions! Excellent!

12th March 2005, 05:45 PM	#4
sounddevisor Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 127	I agree with Sharp11's comments - very nice samples, definitely some of the best I've heard and undoubtedly fantastic for ensemble use. Unfortunately, no matter how well played and recorded the samples are, I have yet to hear a really convincing solo piano performance from a sampler. I think the insurmountable problem is that the sampler can't get the sympathetic resonance a real instrument has - when you play a note, say a "D," with the damper pedal down, you will get a very complicated mix of resonances from the piano - some general resonance from all the strings, but particualr sympathetic resonance from other strings that have a harmonic relationship to the note(s) that you played - in the case of a "D," you will get the other D strings, the nearby A strings, and probably the F#s near the note you played all ringing to one degree or another.* Since this effect will be different for every note and every combination of notes that you play, it can't really be simulated or substituted for by using artificial reverberation or even by sampling the resonance of the piano. Perhaps in theory you could use some sort of computation to figure out the exact harmonic balance of resonating strings for every possible not or combination of notes, but with 88 keys and even a moderate number of velocity levels, you will very quickly run into an astronomical number of possibilites. One other small point - in the information on the website, you talk about sampling each note of the piano 9 different ways, for a total of 88x9 = 792 samples. A Bosendorfer Imperial has, I believe, 97 keys - shouldn't that be 873 samples? - sounddevisor *footnote - you can play around with this effect as follows: put down a key on a piano without actually sounding the note. Keeping that key down, strongly strike a note a fifth or an octave above and immediately release it (staccatto, in other words). You should hear the note you are holding ringing quite clearly. The composer Karlheinz Stockhausen notates this effect in his solo piano work "Pianostucke." YES, I am a piano geek!!

13th March 2005, 04:07 PM	#6
Bardstown Audio Gear interested Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bardstown, Kentucky USA Posts: 13	I thank all of you for your comments and compliments on the Bardstown Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Model 290. Even though a Bosendorfer Model 290 has additional lower notes below A0, I only sampled and used the usual 88 keys on the Bardstown Bosendorfer. The purpose of those extra lower notes on a Bosendorfer 290 are to provide sympathetic resonance from those lower strings in order to add to the characteristic sound of the Bosendorfer 290 itself, rather than to be actually played in legitimate music. Kip McGinnis Bardstown Audio www.bardstownaudio.com

16th March 2005, 07:32 AM	#8
zmix Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NY, NY Posts: 351	I was not very impressed. The G above middle C is weird, like the EMU module, fuzzy... HOWEVER: I put my monitors in MONO, and I was much more impressed by the tonality...

16th March 2005, 07:05 PM	#10
Football Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Boston Area Posts: 568	This demo sounds far too "sampled piano" sounding for me.