Kick and bass...how much frequency separation?

[Michael Zick]

How much frequency separation do you impart on your kick and bass? Are they pretty separate like Andy Wallace or kind lingering in the same area like Oasis stuff?

Can you site some EQ techniques for the low end?

[Dean Roddey]

One common trick is to just find the low peak (or where you force the peak to be) of the kick and notch that out of the bass slightly so that it leaves a hole open for the kick to come through.

Though, for that matter, a lot of folks just roll the bass off fairly high (with a shallow filter so it's not completely cutting off the low end, just lowering it a good bit by the time you get down to 40Hz), so it may already be down a fair amount by the time you get down to the kick's low peak.

[Michael Zick]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

One common trick is to just find the low peak (or where you force the peak to be) of the kick and notch that out of the bass slightly so that it leaves a hole open for the kick to come through.

Though, for that matter, a lot of folks just roll the bass off fairly high (with a shallow filter so it's not completely cutting off the low end, just lowering it a good bit by the time you get down to 40Hz), so it may already be down a fair amount by the time you get down to the kick's low peak.

Thanks! Anyone else with some words of wisdom when it comes to kick and bass?

[Dean Roddey]

Oh, and of course there's sidechain ducking as well if you want to get a little fancier and more dynamic.

[Michael Zick]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

Oh, and of course there's sidechain ducking as well if you want to get a little fancier and more dynamic.

Yeah I def need to get into the sidechaining and ducking. Lots and lots to learn still but I love it.

[peat]

an interesting thing ive noticed with alot of rock productions from the 80's and such (bon jovi, phil collins, foreigner etc..)

is that the snare often has more low frequency content than the kick

i love those big fat snares !

[u b k]

i like the kick to have an organic top, and a bottom that melts into the bass and makes it bigger when it hits. tuning the kick to the song is essential for this, you need a great monitoring environment (7506's are also very helpful for judging bottom), and you have to be fearless with the low end eq on both instruments.

but mostly, it's about balance and compression. you'll know it's right when you can solo the kick, bass, and voice, and those 3 tracks feel and move like a song.


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[Sk106]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

One common trick is to just find the low peak (or where you force the peak to be) of the kick and notch that out of the bass slightly so that it leaves a hole open for the kick to come through.

I use sidechaining for this - if the arrangement is dense enough. If the arr is wide open, then sidechaining is heard too clearly.

Generally, I mesh the bass and kick together as one sound. I like that idea alot, where the kick basically kicks off the bass note. The bass is the tone, and the kick is the attack of that tone. So I generally round off the kick and bass to center at virtually the same freq area. Creates a rock solid bottom for the song to lean back upon.

[mixedup]

Depends on the arrangement, and how much separation that gives the two instruments... they don't always have to play at the same time ;-) And on the genre... which I want to occupy the lower frequency range. And on what's happening with the other instruments - guitars, pianos... etc etc etc

[fooman]

I've been starting to actually get my way when it comes to mixing the low-end on my latest productions, which is a super nice feeling. I always loved that driving bass with the thump kick that you can feel more than hear, but still have it translate on a low-end speaker.

So when I mix a rock song, I try to add enough hi-end on the kick to let it be heard without being clicky, and I also low-pass the sub-frequencies to clean it up a bit. I scoops the mids often as well. I usually use the UAD 1073 for this. If it's a problem kick I go to the Pultec to do some more accurate EQ. I then compress with enough attack to make it as snappy as the music calls for. I will sometimes notch out the bass guitar or cut the lows enough to let the kick live below the bass.

When I mix metal, it's all click all the time! The lows are cut more than usual, and the drum lives about the bass guitar. The bands want to hear the click, so I EQ it in there, cut mids, etc and compress with a slow attack and fast release. Usually this is all that's needed to let the kick be heard above the wall of detuned guitars and bass. Metal is not a genre of balance usually.... haha.

I find that EQing the kick is tough to do sometimes. Someone here said it best for me, if you can't hear it boost hi-end... if you can't feel it work on the low-end. A lot of it is simply levels as well. If your kick is buried in the mix and you can't distinguish the boom of the kick from the boom of the bass, make sure the bass guitar isn't at an insanely high volume.

Having said all that, I try to tailor each instrument to fit the mix as I track. I keep the song in mind when I'm tracking so when I'm done I have a decent mix already.

[Michael Zick]

Originally Posted by fooman

I've been starting to actually get my way when it comes to mixing the low-end on my latest productions, which is a super nice feeling. I always loved that driving bass with the thump kick that you can feel more than hear, but still have it translate on a low-end speaker.

So when I mix a rock song, I try to add enough hi-end on the kick to let it be heard without being clicky, and I also low-pass the sub-frequencies to clean it up a bit. I scoops the mids often as well. I usually use the UAD 1073 for this. If it's a problem kick I go to the Pultec to do some more accurate EQ. I then compress with enough attack to make it as snappy as the music calls for. I will sometimes notch out the bass guitar or cut the lows enough to let the kick live below the bass.

When I mix metal, it's all click all the time! The lows are cut more than usual, and the drum lives about the bass guitar. The bands want to hear the click, so I EQ it in there, cut mids, etc and compress with a slow attack and fast release. Usually this is all that's needed to let the kick be heard above the wall of detuned guitars and bass. Metal is not a genre of balance usually.... haha.

I find that EQing the kick is tough to do sometimes. Someone here said it best for me, if you can't hear it boost hi-end... if you can't feel it work on the low-end. A lot of it is simply levels as well. If your kick is buried in the mix and you can't distinguish the boom of the kick from the boom of the bass, make sure the bass guitar isn't at an insanely high volume.

Having said all that, I try to tailor each instrument to fit the mix as I track. I keep the song in mind when I'm tracking so when I'm done I have a decent mix already.

Oooh I can't stand overly-clicky instruments like Korn's first record (although I like the songs). I think Wallace is the king of punchy kicks without the clicks.

[Nishmaster]

Generally, I like the kick to sit above the bass in frequency.

If you are finding the kick to be too muddy, a lot of times it is because those very low frequencies have some long wavelengths and they can make the kick feel less tight as they give the illusion of a longer decay.

In a similar vein then, for hard rock type stuff, where do you find that you are rolling off the bass? 40Hz? 120Hz? What slope?

[Michael Zick]

Originally Posted by Nishmaster

Generally, I like the kick to sit above the bass in frequency.

If you are finding the kick to be too muddy, a lot of times it is because those very low frequencies have some long wavelengths and they can make the kick feel less tight as they give the illusion of a longer decay.

In a similar vein then, for hard rock type stuff, where do you find that you are rolling off the bass? 40Hz? 120Hz? What slope?

I boost the bass around 30-40k so I'll cut the kick at those frequencies and yes, my kicks usually sit right above the bass.

[fooman]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Oooh I can't stand overly-clicky instruments like Korn's first record (although I like the songs). I think Wallace is the king of punchy kicks without the clicks.

I don't have their CDs with me at the moment, but I used to know that CD front-to-back on drums. Keep in mind that a LOT of those clicks are from the bass guitar. It acted more as a percussion instrument in Korn.

I agree about Wallace though. Listen to some early Rage for some thudding kick.

I, personally, enjoy clicky kicks. Thing is, so does almost every drummer that walks into my studio. If I try to put together a kick sound that resembles STP for a rock n roll act, I'll get questions and have to explain myself and the reasons why I went in that direction.

[James Meeker]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Can you site some EQ techniques for the low end?

In my opinion keeping kick and bass seperate is more about compression and limiting than EQ. For example: if you pin the bass guitar to sit right at -4 db with a limiter you can come in and get the kick to nail -1 db on its peak--punching right through the bass.

Yeah, some "pushing and pulling" EQ might help you out, but when you start getting down low a bit of overlap is unavoidable (and often desirable).

Also, keep in mind that it's okay to HP a kick. You rarely need tons of 40hz in a kick drum... but you're probably gonna want some in the bass.

Hope this makes sense, I just woke up.

[Michael Zick]

When you guys mix the bass, do you use more amp or DI signal?

[fooman]

Actually, about even....
The reason is because when I'm tracking I often put both at 0db (fader in the DAW, I don't monitor with one at a lower volume), and tailor them around each other. Once again, I track with the final sound in mind. So when I'm mixing, I often EQ to tailor the sound a bit more but don't have to mess with levels except for my bass buss (both signals summed).

But anyways, if I want more low-end and beef I use the amp. If I want more definition w/o EQ, I use the DI.

[CircusofMind]

I usually use a combination of methods.

I will then set up a sidechain trigger channel mimicking the kick and compressing the bass when the kick hits. Usually I have to nudge the trigger channel slightly to get the compressor to pump at the right moment.

If necessary, I will then push and pull the eq of kick and bass so they fit around each other nicely.

I also agree that rolling off some lowend of each will clarify things a bit.

[Dean Roddey]

I'm very big on a super-tight kick/bass in my stuff. I really like that sound. So, as mentioned above, the whole 'kick is the attack, bass is the tone' works for me. If they are really tight, it does give a nice effect and you don't need to do much to separate them, because they aren't separate. It's a very punchy, powerful effect. For me, there may be hardly more than a handful of kicks in the song that aren't in tandem with the bass.

But of course there are many different genres and styles, and they all have different ideas about how kick and bass should interact. I hear some stuff where the kick is just a tiny, plastic sounding twhack and the bass is a completely limited, very high passed thing. But, it works for the genre.

I really am trying to go for as uncompressed as I can, so wouldn't want to depend on compression and limiting to make them tight myself.

[doorknocker]

I think often it's more important how the kick feels/hits as opposed to how it sounds.

[robot gigante]

I couldn't tell you to do one thing or another since it depends so much on the sounds, the arrangement and the music style.

But optimally I like to make it so that they reinforce each other. If the sounds are pretty balanced to begin with and the timing of the players is good this is easy.

I think compression is important, as is automation. However I will never ever put a digital limiter on anything in my mixes. Sometimes a Transient Designer or plugin that does the same to bring out the attack or sustain is helpful.

Also I sometimes really enjoy cranking 35hz on a 1073 or 30hz on an EMPEQ on either kick or bass- or both- sometimes in conjunction with compressing the living piss out of the sound, although if you try doing the same with plugins I would venture to say you are SOL.

[soupking]

What about the prospect of mic selection and placement (especially for kick) for frequency response vs. hitting the EQ?

I would think this and to compress vs not compress would largely affect how one approaches the board.

[engmix]

when it comes to lo end, compression is the game. getting the bass rock solid is key to a harmonious kick and bass relationship. it's not unusual for me to slap 2-3 compressors on a live bass to get it from flapping all over the place. much less of an issue if it's machine generated. 2-bus compression and limiting is also very useful for getting a good tight lo end.

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by engmix

when it comes to lo end, compression is the game. it's not unusual for me to slap 2-3 compressors on a live bass

Compression may help to lift up those hard to hear details, but generally I feel limiting to be more useful on low freq instruments.

[James Meeker]

Speaking of compression and limiting on kick/bass... you're going to need a ton for the "modern" sound. It's not unusual for me to compress a kick 5db and then limit it for another 6-8db. As far as bass guitar goes, sky's the limit really... I've limited stuff 12db and then compressed it another 4db without batting an eye.

Like I mentioned earlier, if you pin the bass in the right spot with the kick punching through it a few db louder you're going to solve the mystery of the tight low end.

[Rednose]

when you guys talk about ducking the bass with compression...
what about when you have 3 channels of bass?
DI, AMP, and Sub?
Do you sidechain them all or just the one your featuring?

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by Rednose

when you guys talk about ducking the bass with compression...
what about when you have 3 channels of bass?
DI, AMP, and Sub?
Do you sidechain them all or just the one your featuring?

Mix all 3 together, into one sound, then send all 3 through the same group bus and put the compression on the bus

[Dean Roddey]

Speaking of compression and limiting on kick/bass... you're going to need a ton for the "modern" sound. It's not unusual for me to compress a kick 5db and then limit it for another 6-8db. As far as bass guitar goes, sky's the limit really... I've limited stuff 12db and then compressed it another 4db without batting an eye.

Yeh, you can basically limit all dynamics out of the bass at all. Then put a compressor after that and put some punch back in using the attack time. It can create an extremely consistent and level bass.

[Michael Zick]

Originally Posted by Dean Roddey

Yeh, you can basically limit all dynamics out of the bass at all. Then put a compressor after that and put some punch back in using the attack time. It can create an extremely consistent and level bass.

Doesn't all this compression suck the tone and clarity out of the bass though? I read somewhere that in order to avoid compressing the life out of bass just cut like 6db at around 30-50k and it will remove a lot of the problems. Anyone try this?