Kick and bass...how much frequency separation?

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Doesn't all this compression suck the tone and clarity out of the bass though? I read somewhere that in order to avoid compressing the life out of bass just cut like 6db at around 30-50k and it will remove a lot of the problems. Anyone try this? I have and it seemed to work.

that's the problem with audio magazines, the right compression and eq enables you to get the bass and bass drum relationship right, the wrong and it's a ball of mud. also experiment with the order of your chain, ie compressor before or after the eq. Compression with the bass is your friend, the right amount is determined by the performance and the track

[Michael Zick]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

that's the problem with audio magazines, the right compression and eq enables you to get the bass and bass drum relationship right, the wrong and it's a ball of mud. also experiment with the order of your chain, ie compressor before or after the eq. Compression with the bass is your friend, the right amount is determined by the performance and the track

What's a good plugin for kick and bass?
What's a good outboard for kick and bass?

[amishsixstringe]

I smash the bass with an L-1 about 10dB and the kick about 5, then use either smack waves V comp. Almost don't need eq AT ALL on the bass when doing this.


Neil

[credentialed]

Cool thread.
How would you guys handle a bass player that is a slapper and string rattler. I want to capture and preserve all of that, but have a solid click on the kick as well. Don't know if I am asking the correct question or not...

[Michael Zick]

Originally Posted by credentialed

Cool thread.
How would you guys handle a bass player that is a slapper and string rattler. I want to capture and preserve all of that, but have a solid click on the kick as well. Don't know if I am asking the correct question or not...

Yeah it seems that there can't be too much clicking going on. Like on Korn's first record, the kicks are super clicky but the bass is almost like a sine wave.

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Doesn't all this compression suck the tone and clarity out of the bass though? I read somewhere that in order to avoid compressing the life out of bass just cut like 6db at around 30-50k and it will remove a lot of the problems. Anyone try this? I have and it seemed to work.

All that compression can, yes. Especially if the player is a good one. A good bassist already is able to keep the low end where it needs to be without much compression. However, not all bassists are that good. Also, there are many compressors that are not suited for bass. In any case the sound and arrangement dictates what you need to do. Personally I think automating the bass into a compressor is preferable in many cases to compressing or limiting it too hard. One other thing to try is to sidechain the compressor with a highpassed signal so that all that compression won't suck out all the bass. Sometimes doing this can sound great, other times you need the envelope of the compressor to tighten up the low lows.

If you want to look at an approach that doesn't rely on compression at all, look at Bruce Swedien's posts. The lows in his mixes are definitely tight, punchy and worthy.

To answer your second question, unless there is a massive peak at those frequencies, or the kick owns that zone and the two are fighting, the answer is an emphatic no. Even then you may want to do something else besides EQ the lows out, such as add distortion to the bass or use something like Maxxbass to bring out the high harmonics.

Also, do a search for what Dave Pensado has posted about kick and bass. His techniques really work!

[Dean Roddey]

I've not heard anyone talking about doing a really big cut at that position, more like a smallish one. But lots of people do roll off the lows up as high as 80hz (or so that the point where the filter starts down is at 80Hz, which might be actually more like 65Hh, since they aren't going to use a steep filter. But still, by the time you are down to the low kick oomph frequencies, the bass would be down a fair bit, and you get a clean, punchy sound like that. You might not be going for a clean, punchy sound necessary, and you may want a big, fat bass. BUt, if not, it's really common to do that and, if it works for the style you are doing, it'll probably sound better and more musical and work better on smaller speakers and do a lot to differentiate the kick and bass.

[Toasterboy]

Originally Posted by u b k

you'll know it's right when you can solo the kick, bass, and voice, and those 3 tracks feel and move like a song.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Yes!!

I like to run the bass and kick through the same compressor so the kick knocks the bass out of the way when it comes through. Side chain or daisy chain or alice in chain it!

I don't like too much compression (I like tape compression) on the bass but it takes a good player to get away with that.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

What's a good plugin for kick and bass?
What's a good outboard for kick and bass?

I'm not a plug in guy, I mix on a console, here's my chain on the last project I mixed Kick in - Distressor- API 550a Kick out CLM expounder - aphex 651 expressor. Bass di Focusrite ISA 220, bass amp Amek 9098 eq- Distressor.
In general for drums you need fast compressors, by that I mean compressors that won't kill your drum sound, for instance the ISA 220 works ok for me with bass and sucks to high hell on drums, the compressor is wayyyyy too slow. Whereas, a distressor or the aphex or probably thousands of other compressors will work fine. With Bass, as with most instruments, you don't need a fast compressor. As far as eq goes this is very program dependent on the bass but for the bass drum I like the eq's that have sweepable filters like 9098's or a CLM expounder, as a matter of fact I like them for most drums

[Rednose]

Originally Posted by Sk106

Mix all 3 together, into one sound, then send all 3 through the same group bus and put the compression on the bus

ahh, brilliant!
Thanks.

[bgrotto]

I often buss the entire drum kit along with the bass to a compressor; it sorta helps to glue that whole low-end rhythm section together.

This is in addition to the usual individual EQ/compression on the kick and bass channels.

EDIT: I should mention I generally do this in parallel because my board's audio subgroups don't sound all that awesome.

[Vertigo2006]

Can someone tell me a secret of Britney Spears "Toxic"?
Low end is so tight...
So many mastering engineer use it (still) as reference song.


V

[Dragon]

I like the bass to be the low end when I can make it work. If you have a good beater sound, that can really cut through a mix quite nicely. I like to approach kik and bass as two pieces of the mix puzzle and sculpt their sounds accordingly, with as little or as much eq, comp., etc. as I feel is necessary to get the sound I need.

Also, I have really tightened up the lo end of mixes by gating the bass. If you truncate the end of certain bass notes this can really add some punch.

Nathan Pellerin
Taos Recording Retreat: Sound Studio, Guesthouse in beautiful Taos, NM

[ColourSurround]

I'd just like to say that this was a great question and it's come up with some great answers. Very well done lads.

As for what I found helps, to really get a solid kick sound HPing the sub-sonics on a kick and raising the treble really helps give it a solid punch and actually makes it sound fuller than you may think. I then also like to boost the bass at a bit at between 60-85hz (depending on the song, and not too much boost, you don't want too much thunder) as well as it's second harmonic frequency (double whichever initial low freq you boosted, sorry if the terminology is wrong) to get a nice strong sound out of it. Then I adjust usually around 1-2.5khz to taste.

Parallel compression for me works great in bringing both sounds to a real tight point in the mix and from there it's all about setting the proper levels in relation to the rest of the tracks. I'm no true pro yet but this has been working for me quite well.

Cheers,

PiN

[Michael Zick]

Sorry to be a N00B but can you guys explain parallel compression in regards to kick/bass?

[djclueveli]

good thread