Was drummer in a band... kicked out after mixing album! Need advice!

[Lori]

You live and learn.
I have had a similar thing happen to me before, and I had to learn from that horrible mistake. The band the screwed me over ended up not making it that far. No one wants to work with them, or have anything to do with them. It sucks, but bad business is no business. And no one had to say anything or talk bad about them, it was what THEY showed others.... with their bad business ethic and poor choices that led others to feel, they are not that serious, and are a huge red flag.

[lordmiguel]

you're in control mate. they have mp3's but they can't get anywhere of significant value without the master or re-recording the whole deal.

so other than your ego being bruised, and realizing that you're fighting over small potatoes, you can just hold out till cash is in hand. maybe small claims is in order, after all 5 years may exact some revenge, maybe judge judy will like you better

unless of course they call the mastering guy and he gives them a copy...who signed the mastering contract?

[James Lehmann]

Originally Posted by cbc459

I get kicked out of the band. They say... they don't feel comfortable with me in the band anymore.. all very vague without any specifics.

You'll never get a satisfactory resolution to this whole situation without addressing that issue.

And my feeling is that you won't get it now.

Time to put it down to experience and move on - do what's best for you. And what's best for you is not getting caught up in some petty cycle of vengeance but to go out and seek new opportunities.

It works both ways with profiting (artistically) from the mixes too - don't forget you may well want to use them yourself as examples of your mixing and your drumming to get new gigs.

[Nu-tra]

I would keep the masters and make them start all over again.

I'm a summa betch when it comes to that kind of stuff. I work way to hard for someone to just get rid of me.

[Chucho]

I'm just imagining the next band meeting.

Did you sack him ?
Yeah.
And you have got the masters ?
errr..............
You mean he's got our masters ?
err...............

[narco]

the legality of this seems pretty straight forward.

Its enforcing it that is the difficult part, unless they are being reasonable you will need a lawyer, and that would normally cost a lot of money.

I would try to get some free legal advice, write them a letter (so its in writing) outlinging what you think should happen, and hope they be reasonable

narco

[misterlong]

This sucks! does happen a lot though,
I guess there are a three issues here:
You are one of the people who created (wrote) songs in the first place, right? so you a own a proportion of the intellectual coptyright (publishing) of those songs. You also, since you have invested time and money in it, own a proportion of the physical master, until such time as you have been paid/reimbursed for your work/investment. Also you are a performer on those songs, just as any session player, even unconnected to the band, would be, and thefore your appearance on the recordings is a consideration. .
If I do a session for someone, even contributing nothing melodically, and playing exactly what they tell me, they are still not allowed to use that recording of me without my express permission. I have to sign a release form before they are able to exploit that recording. Record companies are very careful to get that permission before they pay. Of course policing this is not necessarily easy, but if for instance the band starts to sell copies of that specific recording (the one with you on it) and this has not been resolved, you can single handedly prevent the sale of that recording, but not necessarily the song. Since you own a proportion of the master your position is even stronger. Again however, proving this is always the biggest problem. You need to nail down who wrote the songs (was it as a band?) and who owns that recording and take it from there. However if it is merely your appearance on these recordings which is in question, they can rerecord your parts, create a new master and do what they want with it.
I would suggest you nail them down on who owns the publishing, get a written agreement with them about that (register them with the relevant people, PRS in England) and also get a proper credit for playing on the album, and that you were a part of that band up until its completion, then give them the masters. Then just sit back and hope they go on to make money from those recordings, because then yiou will be entitled to some of it. Like the other guys have said here, you can then use them as a showreel too. Try to keep it as amicable as possible, and move on. Insist on the relevant credits, and publishing, then forget about the money you shelled out for now. Consider it an investment. They will be much more willing if you don't want actual pound notes.
In UK the musicians union is a very good source for advice (if you are a member!!)
Hope some of this helps
long

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Tough situation.

I'd avoid trying to sell them their record; that's a bit shady. Why not just figure out how much money YOU paid for the recording, and tell them they gotta reimburse you that amount? Maybe they can make their new drummer pay that cut?

If you can, set up the publishing fairly, make sure you're properly credited, and move on. I know it sucks, but the biggest **** is them taking your money for their record. Get that dough back and be done with it.

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

You'll never get a satisfactory resolution to this whole situation without addressing that issue.

And my feeling is that you won't get it now.

The exact two things I was thinking.

Sit down and have a heart to heart (it may hurt because you'll hear some things you might not like but it'll help you in the future AND you can say it was really hard to work with a bass plater that smells! But really, if it's civil, it'll help everyone concerend.)

And just get your money, get the credit, talk about any splits that'll come when/if they recoup all the costs and then just move on.

Bitch about it to all your friends but only in general, non-personal way, no point in being ashamed of the truth and hiding it all. Sounds like most everyone will probably know all about it soon anyway? Maybe a 'Yeah, They're wankers for kicking me out. I worked really hard for a really long time but it's just wasn't happening anymore. Oh well... Onward and upward! Now whose round is it?"

The good thing is. kinda like jobs, you stuck it out for a long time and people will respect that. No one wants a guy that's been in 10 different bands in the last 2 years. It shows a fickle nature and generally points to problems with the individual and not the band.

Take care, buddy.

R.

[AlphaDingo]

Have the songs been copywritten? If not I would suggest you do so. You are then the owner and can serve them with a dmca takedown notice. Send in the CD to where ever you send it and if they haven't done it already, you're the owner. If they have, it'll go to court to be resolved. You don't have to go but I wonder if it would be cheaper to pay you what you're owed or pay a lawyer just to get the copyright, never mind the masters. This bit of hardball brought to you by AlphaDingo.

[noah330]

High Road:

Let them sell their record. Chances are they're not the next Beatles or Shaggs and they will break up soon.

Especially if they're they type of personalities that would do what they did to you.

Low Road:

Release the record as a solo album and give it away on myspace and burn copies for free at local record stores and their shows.

[fanriffic]

..don't waste your effort/time on 'low roads' ...keep your dignity..get reimbursed for recording costs,ask to be credited...give them the masters...let it go.



F

[Duardo]

PM and i will give you the name and number of the lawyer right here in la buddy.

There's a big difference between knowing a lawyer who is willing to give out free advice and saything that all lawyers are legally obligated to do so. Giving advice is not their job.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

If it's worth $500 to him, then I guess it's worth it. He asked.

Ownership of media has a lot to do with it, especially when he is part of the commissioning party. It certainly is not clear that this was a work for hire scenario since he not only didn't get paid, but invested in the project himself both financially and in good will.

It's also not clear it's a high school band. I actually assumed he meant college since they'd already been playing together for five years. And being a highschool band doesn't preclude prospective capital gain off recordings or anticipated future glory.

So silly if it's not worth it, but I was giving him options, including opting out if it's too much of a pain.

let's see - my business partner is a lawyer.....hmmm

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by narcoman

let's see - my business partner is a lawyer.....hmmm

Did you ask him about it?

So is it a work for hire scenario, like you inferred?

It's my understanding that work for hire actually requires some form of consideration, and that in absence of such consideration, media ownership would play a significant role in determining creative rights.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by travisbrown

Did you ask him about it?

So is it a work for hire scenario, like you inferred?

It's my understanding that work for hire actually requires some form of consideration, and that in absence of such consideration, media ownership would play a significant role in determining creative rights.

well - just joshing with ya, but yes he is/was a lawyer.

But yes - it's the other way round. BECAUSE it wasnt sorted in advance its all heresay. All members have equal ownership. His working the mix has no basis in protection because there is no-one o say who did what. It's just a mess that would not even be looked at in any compensation dispute - which would be dat to do because its worth nothing.

[NorseHorse]

Yep, just hold on to the masters. If they REALLY want them, they'll work something out.

Put those masters on the backburner, don't think about 'em much and move on. I'm sure you've got other cool things to do.

CYA = COVER YOUR ASS

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by CISUM

PM and i will give you the name and number of the lawyer right here in la buddy.

Are you mistaking the fact that many State Bars or legal associations require their member to provide a certain portion of work pro bono compared with the idea that any lawyer is required to give free advice to any and all? I don't know what it's like in California, but I've never come across the latter scenario.

most lawyers I know or have retained will initially discuss whether there is a case to be made, but that's a little different than being required to give free advice. That's pretty much just free advice on whether they can bill you or not.

[Michael Zick]

ALWAYS get stuff in writing BEFORE you start a project. It saves everyone involved a hell of a lot of headaches. Sure you can still get screwed but there's hardly any recourse without a written contract no matter what the situation.

It blows that people can do that to band members. Shit, Pete Best was in the Beatles before getting kicked out cause he looked better than the rest of them and got more chicks.

[zakco]

Originally Posted by Ol' Betsey

The exact two things I was thinking.

Sit down and have a heart to heart (it may hurt because you'll hear some things you might not like but it'll help you in the future AND you can say it was really hard to work with a bass plater that smells! But really, if it's civil, it'll help everyone concerend.)

And just get your money, get the credit, talk about any splits that'll come when/if they recoup all the costs and then just move on.

Bitch about it to all your friends but only in general, non-personal way, no point in being ashamed of the truth and hiding it all. Sounds like most everyone will probably know all about it soon anyway? Maybe a 'Yeah, They're wankers for kicking me out. I worked really hard for a really long time but it's just wasn't happening anymore. Oh well... Onward and upward! Now whose round is it?"

The good thing is. kinda like jobs, you stuck it out for a long time and people will respect that. No one wants a guy that's been in 10 different bands in the last 2 years. It shows a fickle nature and generally points to problems with the individual and not the band.

Take care, buddy.

R.

This is the best advice you've been given here. I PROMISE you that the bigger the noise you make, the more likely you are to look like the asshole in the end. You may not care now, but it will affect your career in the long run.

High road, period.

-Z-

[scram_chops]

break their arms

[Retinal]

If you -and only you- have the master you're pretty much ok.. But still, it depends on the point of view. If you think the band wanted to use the cd to book dates and promote themselves probably they'll be ok even with the mp3 version, as well as if they want to use it to try to get a contract with a label (does that still happen?).
On the other hand if they want the master they'll have to pay you of course, and if you want to get the money of the mix you've done regardless what they are going to use it for, i think the only way is get a lawyer and stop them to from using your mix, but I doubt the lawyer can get the money because there was no agreement, BUT when they can't use the mix anymore at that point you can still try to sell it to them, at your price.

[cbc459]

Man, I'm still laughing at this

Did you sack him ?
Yeah.
And you have got the masters ?
errr..............
You mean he's got our masters ?
err...............

But... UPDATE. The matter has finally been settled and I managed to convince them to pay me half of what I initially asked for (which was well expected, and the reason I asked for a high price in the first place). I pretty much had to threaten them with the fact that I could stop them from using the drum tracks I played, as they were basically telling me that they'd be using the mixes they had with or without consent. But they backed down and agreed to pay me. They also tried to get me to sign away my songwriting credits, which I refused. But all in all, I feel OK about this. I got compensated, which is good enough. Traumatic experience no doubt... but it could have ended with me cursing instead of them!

Once again, thanks again for the tremendous support and advice I've received from everyone. Welcome to the miserable world of AE indeed!

[misterlong]

Glad you got it sorted. Sounds like a reasonable comprimise.
Well done not letting go of your credits etc. They could be worth something in the future.
best
long

[Pschelfh]

Start a new band and try to be better and more succesful than the old one. Best revenge!

Peter.