Using two mics on each tom

[blackcom]

Hi!
I've seen some engineers using two mics instead of one when close-mic'ing toms..one on top and one from buttom and up phase-flipped.

I've tried this my self but i'm getting a bit muddy sound.

Any trick to get this right? Running one of the mics lower in volume, perhaps lo-pass or high-pass on one or the other, EQ?

Anyone here with experience on this topic. I know Lars Ulrick does this in the studio...you might not like his band, though...but that's not the topic here

[chuckj]

I just recently had a band in where the producer wanted to mic both the top and bottom of the toms. He was adept at drum tuning and pitched the bottom heads down about a 1/3 from the top head. I used 421's on the top and the cheap and cheerful e609's on the bottom heads. We experimented with the bottom mic position until it sounded the best in the short time we had during setup. We had no time to check for proper phasing, nor did I have a device such as the IBP to help. Knowing that the drums would be dumped into PT later and could be nudged helped. We found that the the bottom mic of the toms sounded a bit better when moved further away, about 4-6" from the head. It definitely made a difference in the beef of the toms even more so after lining up the tracks in PT. They were more dimensional in nature. Everyone was pleased with the end result.

[Rev. JimBo]

Originally Posted by blackcom

Hi!
I've seen some engineers using two mics instead of one when close-mic'ing toms..one on top and one from buttom and up phase-flipped.

I've tried this my self but i'm getting a bit muddy sound.

Any trick to get this right? Running one of the mics lower in volume, perhaps lo-pass or high-pass on one or the other, EQ?

Anyone here with experience on this topic. I know Lars Ulrick does this in the studio...you might not like his band, though...but that's not the topic here

IMHO less mics is better except when it's not . What would inverting the phase 180 degrees do for this except cause phase cancellation ?
IMHO that phase reverse switch was put there in the most part for when you run across a wrongly wired Mic cable and are too lazy to run out and replace it . There are exceptions of course but you need to think it out as to what freqs you will be nulling and to what purpose -- this can be calculated .

[jchadstopherhuez]

i often use a 57 on top and a 421 on the bottom of toms, ran to one preamp with a simple y-xlr cable with one input phase reversed. always has worked fine for me, i get the attack of the top head, and the tone/low end of the bottom.

alot of times i just use mics on top, the exception being that i often a mic near the bottom of the floor toms, usually with a little labs ibp that allows me to place the mic where it sounds best, and still keep it in proper phase relationship to the top mic, and the overheads....really helps me get more low end out of a bigger/floor tom.

cheers,

jchristopherhughes

[Rev. JimBo]

Originally Posted by mixman499

i often use a 57 on top and a 421 on the bottom of toms, ran to one preamp with a simple y-xlr cable with one input phase reversed. always has worked fine for me, i get the attack of the top head, and the tone/low end of the bottom.

alot of times i just use mics on top, the exception being that i often a mic near the bottom of the floor toms, usually with a little labs ibp that allows me to place the mic where it sounds best, and still keep it in proper phase relationship to the top mic, and the overheads....really helps me get more low end out of a bigger/floor tom.

cheers,

jchristopherhughes

If it sounds good -- do it --- but there is no escaping the fact that you are phase canceling at least part of the spectrum .

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Rev. JimBo

If it sounds good -- do it --- but there is no escaping the fact that you are phase canceling at least part of the spectrum .

no you are not necessarily....

Either you are spoiling for a fight over semantics or you've never recorded the top and bottom of a drum... flipping the phase on the bottom isn't always necessary..depends on the distance...and you don't ned to calculate anything...just listen and flip if necessary...no big deal.

Nick

[M Richelle]

I witnessed an engineer use an xlr y cable to split a single channel into top and bottom mics at the drum with the bottom end of the y reverse wired . The only way to change the mic balance was to move the mics and he had channels to spare .

[Rev. JimBo]

Okay here are my personal reasons for avoiding the phase reverse technique .
You will need to conduct an experiment to see what I mean .
You will need a Noise generator - a spectrum analyser - and a Freq . generator ran thru a phase reverse -- follow my reasoning anyway .
On say a 24 track recorder lay down 23 tracks of Noise all in phase simultaneously -- then lay down a Sine wave at say 1 k but flip the phase
on it . Now put the spectrum analyzer on the master with all 23 tracks of noise in the mix --- note the 1 k reading -- now slide up the fader with the out of phase 1 k track on it -- watch the spectrum around 1 k fall off . This example is more along the lines of a " thought experiment"
but if you think it thru you will see what I am getting at .
IMHO whenever you are using an out of phase mic any where in the mix -- you have introduced a " Loose Cannon " so to speak thru out the recording ----1 K of tom tom is the same as 1 K of GTR etc .
This is my reasoning --- any flaws -- anyone ----this is what it's all about
talking the science out .
There are times where you can use that phase reverse but be aware of what it can cost you.
One technique I have used is two mics on a vocalist tracking live in the same room -- one mic sang directly and closely into with normal phase -- the other taped parallel to the other identical mic only out of phase and positioned below the singers mouth . This will allow recording of the vox with minimum phase cancellation and will null out all the background bleed from the band if you blend the two mics where the energy cancels ----
but even then there is going to be some out of phase background residue on the vocal track
that will fight you somewhat when you throw it all together . So applying this to the double tom mic thread -- ask yourself -- is that bottom out of phase tom mic also recording out of phase bleed from say the kick drum . My life is complicated enough
--- phase is complicated -- I'll leave it to you Mavericks .
So concludes my reasoning against using Mr. Phase Reverse Switch unless you just have to .

[jchadstopherhuez]

Originally Posted by Rev. JimBo

If it sounds good -- do it --- but there is no escaping the fact that you are phase canceling at least part of the spectrum .

absolutely !!

sometimes canceling out the bad stuff !! i find this with guitar micing as well...sometimes, i do NOT want the mics completely in phase....sometimes that phase cancelation acts as my "eq" for the tone i want.

but...yes, you are right on with that. for whatever reason, the 57/421 combo has worked for me often. usually i can place them 90% of where they ultimately end up after listening to the results.

the ibp device has been a godsend, and if i had 2 more them, i would probably slap them on the bottom tom mics and sweep the phase knob on the ibp rather than just flipping it 180 deg.

for now...my ibps live on the front of kick mic..and the ldc i usually have near the bottom of the floor tom side of the kit.

whatever sounds good !!

cheers,

jchristopherhughes

[camerondye]

I hope the IBP in the new UAD works as well, I've never gotten the chance to use a real one.
cam

[Vum]

If I have the time I like to mic toms top/bottom. Sometimes I keep the tops, sometimes the bottoms. On floor tom it's rare that the bottom has any real definition to it - however it can be worth it to have that on a separate track to create a unique sound or to use as a trigger.

Sennheiser on the bottom, CAD on the top.

[Rev. JimBo]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

no you are not necessarily....

Either you are spoiling for a fight over semantics or you've never recorded the top and bottom of a drum... flipping the phase on the bottom isn't always necessary..depends on the distance...and you don't ned to calculate anything...just listen and flip if necessary...no big deal.

Nick

Listening while recording ? what a novel concept ----
Didn't say anything about not recording the top and bottom of a drum .
Just my personal distaste for a switch that puts all freqs 180 out relative to another source-- with any two mics difference in distance from the source will equate to phase cancellation in some frequencies but never in the whole and when you flip to correct for cancellation in some frequencies you cause cancellation in others --- I always hear weird artifacts with this technique even while being performed by others
who know this esoteric art of "Listening" you speak of .
I go now --return to tribe --tell them of this new medicine ---

[Beardhead]

Originally Posted by Rev. JimBo

Okay here are my personal reasons for avoiding the phase reverse technique .
You will need to conduct an experiment to see what I mean .
You will need a Noise generator - a spectrum analyser - and a Freq . generator ran thru a phase reverse -- follow my reasoning anyway .
On say a 24 track recorder lay down 23 tracks of Noise all in phase simultaneously -- then lay down a Sine wave at say 1 k but flip the phase
on it . Now put the spectrum analyzer on the master with all 23 tracks of noise in the mix --- note the 1 k reading -- now slide up the fader with the out of phase 1 k track on it -- watch the spectrum around 1 k fall off . This example is more along the lines of a " thought experiment"
but if you think it thru you will see what I am getting at .
IMHO whenever you are using an out of phase mic any where in the mix -- you have introduced a " Loose Cannon " so to speak thru out the recording ----1 K of tom tom is the same as 1 K of GTR etc .
This is my reasoning --- any flaws -- anyone ----this is what it's all about
talking the science out .
There are times where you can use that phase reverse but be aware of what it can cost you.
One technique I have used is two mics on a vocalist tracking live in the same room -- one mic sang directly and closely into with normal phase -- the other taped parallel to the other identical mic only out of phase and positioned below the singers mouth . This will allow recording of the vox with minimum phase cancellation and will null out all the background bleed from the band if you blend the two mics where the energy cancels ----
but even then there is going to be some out of phase background residue on the vocal track
that will fight you somewhat when you throw it all together . So applying this to the double tom mic thread -- ask yourself -- is that bottom out of phase tom mic also recording out of phase bleed from say the kick drum . My life is complicated enough
--- phase is complicated -- I'll leave it to you Mavericks .
So concludes my reasoning against using Mr. Phase Reverse Switch unless you just have to .

I don't get it. I mean, the more mics there are on the drumkit the more issues with phases, that's clear. But: it doesn't matter where you put a mic, it will always record some bleed and that bleed will be in phase with some frequencies and off phase with other frequencies. It doesn't matter if you've engaged the phase switch, it's the same thing. Just take care when positioning the mic in the first place to get the best compromise.

[Rev. JimBo]

Originally Posted by Beardhead

I don't get it. I mean, the more mics there are on the drumkit the more issues with phases, that's clear. But: it doesn't matter where you put a mic, it will always record some bleed and that bleed will be in phase with some frequencies and off phase with other frequencies. It doesn't matter if you've engaged the phase switch, it's the same thing. Just take care when positioning the mic in the first place to get the best compromise.

As I said --- phase is complicated -- I'll leave it to you Mavericks .
The button is there --- push it . Don't make me take out my calculator .

[mpapatonis]

If double miking the toms works for you, then go for it but I would like to present a different view.

A well tuned tom played by a good drummer in a decent room with a quality mic, cable, preamp, EQ, etc. will sound amazing with one mic on the top head. I subscribe to simplicity and getting a great sound at the source and through good acoustics and quality gear. Extra mics never seem to be a substitute for that. In fact, they are often a hindrance. Some of the greatest recordings have been made with minimal miking.

Just another viewpoint.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Rev. JimBo

Listening while recording ? what a novel concept ----
Didn't say anything about not recording the top and bottom of a drum .
Just my personal distaste for a switch that puts all freqs 180 out relative to another source-- with any two mics difference in distance from the source will equate to phase cancellation in some frequencies but never in the whole and when you flip to correct for cancellation in some frequencies you cause cancellation in others --- I always hear weird artifacts with this technique even while being performed by others
who know this esoteric art of "Listening" you speak of .
I go now --return to tribe --tell them of this new medicine ---

...yes of course if there are two different sources at different distances, there will be phase cancellation...but that's why we do it isn't it?...I agree the switch should be a knob that allows you choose between 0 and 180 on every chanel...I don't know why that isn't standard maybe there's technical reason...maybe we should say things like "I flip the phase on the bottom snare to keep it Relatively in phase with the top"...what do ya think?

Nick

[Rev. JimBo]

Originally Posted by Beardhead

I don't get it. I mean, the more mics there are on the drumkit the more issues with phases, that's clear. But: it doesn't matter where you put a mic, it will always record some bleed and that bleed will be in phase with some frequencies and off phase with other frequencies. It doesn't matter if you've engaged the phase switch, it's the same thing. Just take care when positioning the mic in the first place to get the best compromise.

Okay you made me reach for my calculator -- it is an HP33s --- so ask yourself --- are you feeling lucky ?
In dry air at 20 °C (68 °F), the speed of sound is 343 m/s. This also equates to 1235 km/h, 767 mph, 1125 ft/s, or about one mile in five seconds.
Since there are 60 cycles in a second of 60 hz sound then that places the distance that it takes for the air to reach maximum compression -
go thru minimum pressure and return to normal ambient pressure at about 18.75 ft. Half of this is 9.375 ft which would mean that if you were to record a bass drum
with a mic at source and one at 9.375 ft -- combined the two signals at equal energy -- you can kiss 60 hz goodbye with a " Q" of decreasing attenuation in frequencies around 60 hz .
Of course if the Bass Drum you were recording with these two mics needed routine dumping around the 300 hz region you could accomplish that by placing the mics 1.875 ft apart .
So -- if you have a bottom head mic on the floor tom in phase it might turn out to be somewhere in the area of this distance and one could get this working in one's favor particularly
if you have that bottom mic there for some extra low end on the floor tom and are EQing accordingly . Also if your kick mic is not picking up a lot of bleed from the floor tom ;
it probably would not affect the 300hz content of the tom recording but since your bottom floor tom mic will be getting considerable bleed from the kick drum you will be affecting the 300 hz
content of the Bass Drum recording which might be desirable .
Now say that you " Robotically " reach for the 180 phase switch on the bottom tom mic because you heard some engineer tell you that is how it is done --- you automatically shift phase on all
frequencies adjusted for only 1.875 ft --- if you grab Mr. Calculator and think this thru -- you have wrecked havoc on your phase correlation as to what items you are most prone to bleed into that bottom floor mic ---
All I am saying is think before you press that button --- and yes listen -- but listen closely -- this thread started out with some one complaining about how this was sounding to him ----
may be the makings of a gifted engineer in him .
But once again -- My life is complicated enough --- phase is complicated -- I'll leave it to you Mavericks .
I've given you guys pearls ..........

[Rev. JimBo]

Originally Posted by mpapatonis

If double miking the toms works for you, then go for it but I would like to present a different view.

A well tuned tom played by a good drummer in a decent room with a quality mic, cable, preamp, EQ, etc. will sound amazing with one mic on the top head. I subscribe to simplicity and getting a great sound at the source and through good acoustics and quality gear. Extra mics never seem to be a substitute for that. In fact, they are often a hindrance. Some of the greatest recordings have been made with minimal miking.

Just another viewpoint.

Ding - Ding - Ding --- You are Correct Sir !!!!

[RockManDan]

here's something i have done that can be a solution if phase is going to drive you crazy. if you're like me, before you start tracking drums you get good single hits of each drum for replacement/enhancement, maybe even triggering. What you can do is get a good single hit of each tom from miced underneath with whatever mic you choose and use that as a sample to trigger from the top mics that you'll be using during tracking/mixing. Since the top mic is usually where you get more articulation, definition, and variance, you keep this as recorded, but since the bottom mic is usually the one that is more homogenous and consistently boomy, you can use just a sample of it to give a consistently thick body to teh drum without sacrificing the live humanness of the top mic. Use the top mic for mids and highs, and trigger a sample of the bottom mic off of it to give you punchy lows.

because its a different recording and every recording even of the same drum is slightly different, you'll have much less phase cancellation between the recorded top mic and the trigger bottom mic than you would if you were just mixing two mics recorded at teh same time. you may even want to pitch shift the sample down or up a bit to eliminate cancellation even more and give more body or resonance.

when ive tried this it has been good. it also saves on channells, since you can record teh bottom of the drum beforehand then use that mic for somethign else. you only have to track the top mic and use it to trigger your prerecorded bottom sample.

just an idea.
-dan

[jchadstopherhuez]

while i appreciate the science that Rev Jmbo is presenting...in my world, all that really matters is what comes out of the speakers at the end of the day.

i do drums sometimes with LOTS of mics, top and bottom toms, 3 mics on the kick, tons of room mics, hat, ride, snare, mono overhead, mic under the drum throne, blah, blah.

most of the time, with a good drummer, in my room, on one of my kits that is tuned fairly well.....i often use 4 mics tops. mono overhead, a stereo pair in the room, and a mic near the kick drum.

whatever works.

the two mic thing on toms works for me sometimes. a simple phase reversed y cable has always done the trick. i absolutely know that i am f-----ing with the phase, and often using that fact to get the "eq" that i want out of the drum sound.

i happen to use very little eq when i am tracking drums in my room. this is only possible due to the fact that i have experimented hundreds, if not thousands of times with various kits, heads, mics, etc...etc.

again...whatever works.

appreciate where you are coming from Rev....phase issues, especially with drums or other multi mic'd instruments, can really reek havoc. getting that stuff under control, and using it to your advantage takes time and experience...and most of all..listening.

years ago when i first started recording drums, i tried using every trick in the book, as many mics as possible, gates, eq, compression, etc..etc. once you get it all figured out, its often as simple as 2-4 mics, tuning the kit, making it sound good in the room, and bammmmmm !!! you have a great drum sound.

it is so easy that it is quite difficult.

but really, isn't that the case with most things involved in this gig ?

best,

jchristopherhughes

[Rev. JimBo]

Yes Mixman499 ---Let's agree to disagree that we agree . Agreed ?

Peace

[Alex Specht]

Something to think about other than phase issues:

Generally, when tuning drums, the Top head determines the attack and the bottom head determines the tune/pitch of the drum.

For the least amount of nasty overtones, you can take all of the hardware off the shell and hit it with a mallet. This will tell you the fundemental hamonic of the tom itself. Then tune the bottom head to the tune of the shell or in perfect 4ths and 5ths. The top head is only for attack.

Another way to get a good tom sound is to take off the bottom head completely. If this is done, you may need to also take off the hardware lugs because they rattle.

[Daggaland]

Originally Posted by Beardhead

I don't get it. I mean, the more mics there are on the drumkit the more issues with phases, that's clear. But: it doesn't matter where you put a mic, it will always record some bleed and that bleed will be in phase with some frequencies and off phase with other frequencies. It doesn't matter if you've engaged the phase switch, it's the same thing. Just take care when positioning the mic in the first place to get the best compromise.

This is how I see it too. I mean, you've given me something to think about Rev but I just can't see how your reasoning works, I find the phase reverse switch absolutely critical, especially with drums.

Your example at the beginning with the noise generator I understand and it demonstrates what can also be an interesting use of phase (much like your vocal miking techniques you describe, using phase for creative cancelation can be invaluable) but it works because you have only two signals, one of which is phase reversed.

On a kit there are numerous mics and you have to make choices as each drum will be arriving at each mic at different times causing all kinds of potential phase issues .

So, for example, assuming the overhead mics are roughly equidistant from the snare drum, you should find if you flip the phase on one of them (in mono) the snare will sound weaker but the floor tom will be much closer to one mic than the other (assuming A/B here) and consequently you may find it could sound weaker if it's out of phase between the two mics , ditto every drum. If you looked at the waveforms of those examples it'd be quite obvious that the peaks on the snare drum just about matched up in each overhead but the peak of the floor tom on the left overhead coincided with the trough on the right overhead. That means in combination the sound of the floor tom would actually be weaker unless you flipped the phase on one overhead, then of course you're messing up your snare drum sound so a decision has to be made already and you've only checked two drums and opened two mics!

If you assume every drum could be in or out of phase in any combination of two mics and (just to confuse things) that you may actually prefer the sound of some combos out of phase instead of in (the frequencies that get filtered could be just what you wanted to lose!) then I think the phase reverse button is way more important than the hi pass or even EQ when it comes to getting good drums sounds down

[jchadstopherhuez]

Originally Posted by Rev. JimBo

Yes Mixman499 ---Let's agree to disagree that we agree . Agreed ?

Peace

right on !!



i'm quite sure i break many scientific rules daily....as well as many rules of decorum and taste...but, i digress.....

the only i think i really focus on not screwing up is pressing RECORD.

cheers !!

jch

[RCM - Ronan]

Originally Posted by Rev. JimBo

If it sounds good -- do it --- but there is no escaping the fact that you are phase canceling at least part of the spectrum .

Agreed.

Flipping the phase on one of the mics does not fix the phase, it just screws it up in a different way that you might like better, it also changes the phase relationship to all the other mics on the kit.

[Chrisc_o]

Am I nuts, or has this thread gone of the rails a bit. Many have said it, and it is the final word in my opinion: use your ears when addressing phase issues.

That being said, Rev. JimBo, your calculator and your 1khz vs white noise test don't mean jack amidst the mess of frequencies that occur and change constantly in any piece of recorded music. It is such a controlled test that it becomes irrelevant. As long as phase issues exist, the phase switch is a useful tool if used correctly (and phase is a constant battle, believe it or not ). Now, by "used correctly" I do not mean that any time a drum is recorded from both ends the phase switch MUST be engaged on one of the mics. This is akin to saying that ALL eq's MUST be boosted by 3db at 120hz for any recorded kick drum. Even if it works 90% of the time it should never be law.

Again: use your ears, and may I add, common sense.

[mpapatonis]

Originally Posted by Alex Specht

Something to think about other than phase issues:

Generally, when tuning drums, the Top head determines the attack and the bottom head determines the tune/pitch of the drum.

For the least amount of nasty overtones, you can take all of the hardware off the shell and hit it with a mallet. This will tell you the fundemental hamonic of the tom itself. Then tune the bottom head to the tune of the shell or in perfect 4ths and 5ths. The top head is only for attack.

Another way to get a good tom sound is to take off the bottom head completely. If this is done, you may need to also take off the hardware lugs because they rattle.

I respectfully disagree with this information. Although a quality drum shell will have a fundamental pitch, you do not have to tune it to that pitch or necessary a 4th or 5th of that pitch. You should be able to pitch the drum at several places depending on the drum heads that are used and the type of sound that you're after.

In addition, the pitch of the drum is not determined by the bottom head alone but rather a combination of the two heads. There is a lot of interplay. Contrary to what some people believe, many drummers tune the bottom head higher than the top (often a 3rd or 4th). This creates a little downward pitch bend right after the attack and is a very common "studio drummer" type of sound. If no pitch bend is desired, tuning the top and bottom the same will yield more of a single sustained pitch.

Certainly there are no rules to this but there are some common practices. Besides Phil Collins (who actually gets a pretty amazing drum tone IMHO), I haven't seen too many drummers removing the bottom heads of the toms since the 70's. That technique will get you NO sustain whatsoever. If that's what you're after, than have at it.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by blackcom

Hi!
I've seen some engineers using two mics instead of one when close-mic'ing toms..one on top and one from buttom and up phase-flipped.

I've tried this my self but i'm getting a bit muddy sound.

Any trick to get this right? Running one of the mics lower in volume, perhaps lo-pass or high-pass on one or the other, EQ?

Anyone here with experience on this topic. I know Lars Ulrick does this in the studio...you might not like his band, though...but that's not the topic here

It's only something I've done live, after picking it up from a live engineer. It's good for getting low low end. Gated off the top skin you can get a real bottom end thud.

I've not found any use for it in a studio.

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by Rev. JimBo

As I said --- phase is complicated -- I'll leave it to you Mavericks .
The button is there --- push it . Don't make me take out my calculator .

Have you ever actually made a record?

[Rev. JimBo]

Originally Posted by Chrisc_o

Am I nuts, or has this thread gone of the rails a bit. Many have said it, and it is the final word in my opinion: use your ears when addressing phase issues.

That being said, Rev. JimBo, your calculator and your 1khz vs white noise test don't mean jack amidst the mess of frequencies that occur and change constantly in any piece of recorded music. It is such a controlled test that it becomes irrelevant. As long as phase issues exist, the phase switch is a useful tool if used correctly (and phase is a constant battle, believe it or not ). Now, by "used correctly" I do not mean that any time a drum is recorded from both ends the phase switch MUST be engaged on one of the mics. This is akin to saying that ALL eq's MUST be boosted by 3db at 120hz for any recorded kick drum. Even if it works 90% of the time it should never be law.
y
Again: use your ears, and may I add, common sense.

Yeah you are right -- how does a calculator have any business in an engineering discussion ? --- excuse me --
and you are right --- this thread has gone off the rails what with
debating phase issues --- what could that have to do with a thread about
multi - micing a tom ?
We should be talking about cool mics we like to use and stuff and then you tell me that my favorite mic that I put on a bottom tom head is a piece of crap and if I had the "common sense" God gave a goose -- I would see that ---
after all ; this isn't some Geeky science and stuff -- Dude -- let's rock ---.
But let me clarify for all of you ---if I was having you record my band -- and I do play also --and you engaged that" one hundred and eighty degrees phase thingy" on your board while tracking my drums --- it would bug the sh-t out of me when I heard it and I would hear it because it is easy to hear the negative results ---and I would fire your ass .
And what are all these cheap ass mics you guys are talking about sticking up your tom's bottom --- I never used a mic on a tom ever in a studio that
cost less than a thousand dollars minimum --- so now am I getting back on topic ?
Once again I apologize for trying to explain my reasoning for not personally liking unnecessary " Gobblety - Gook " but I was just responding to questions
asked of me .
And lastly on a personal note to " Drum Sound ' when he posed the question to me---- "Have you ever actually made a record?"---
I went to Drumsounds studio site and checked out his Mic selection and perhaps I should be asking you the same question and might I even suggest that you do a little reading and visualization on exactly what ' Sound " is . Now I assume every one will
find that little jab germain to the thread topic and I will remind you that I did not start the personal attacks but perhaps I came across as threatening
in questioning what seems to be a "Sacred Cow " to many of you .
But might I add that; if the "Elan" is anything like a Neotek " Elite " -- you do show promise in your Desk selection--- the Elite 2 is my favorite console but many would attack me for this opinion --- so since it is off this threads rails I will go cast my pearls before a new goup of swine on that topic ---
And I have never even been in a recording studio much less made a record --- go ahead and believe that if it will help you feel less threatened .
I will just try and remember that we are all glad when another engineer besides ourselves suck --- let's be honest ---and I'll keep my mouth shut around you folks and be joyous .