Surround Panning in Stereo

[vaesion]

Im wondering how many of you guys use the haas effect/ phase shifting to make sounds sit in the mix.
Also....... Do the big SSL's have Stereo surround panning in them with joy sticks for positioning that goes beyond normal panning in something like Nuendo.
and the last thing..........
Would it be an advantage for me to use the surround panner in the fireworx to have a more professional spaced out mix?

Brother B

[vaesion]

Originally posted by AngeloClematide
Yes, i use it quite a lot. Mostly for drastic purpose.

Double the track and apply sample delay to the copy, so in between nothing and 70 samples (@44.1K). The Effect changes from sample to sample. Check with the headphone till you like the effect.

The clubs like this effect on their radio spots as well House music and techno.

Ive been using it for about 2 years now with sample slide by analog x unless I use it nuendo like u said. With sample slide u have to have a stereo signal.
I never get to talk to other engineers so alot of times I as questions about things Ive been doing to see if anyone does it too.
I dont know the answer about the big boards....if they have better panning options then software like nuendo.
I would guess the do.........and to me that is abig missing link........
who knows
Nuendo probably does it and I dont even know it.......
I have some sound effect cds that when listened to you would swear the sound was going over ur head or behind you.......Ive had head phones on before listening and jumped because it sounded so much like something fell behind me

[vaesion]

. I have a effect cd and the jets are clearly flying over my head. With out headphones the fidelity is perefect....Ive heard singing cds with peeps that sound so real its creepy.......I hear this same panning in alot of professional recordings and it damn sure isnt dragging the the left to the right in nuendo.
Fireworx has a surround panner........but it sounds very phasy. The professional ones sound perfect......all i wanna know is whats doing it.......the console itself or an outboard piece of gear.....I cant imagine an engineer routing things out and back in for the effect so it makes me belive its the board......and to me that is the MAJOR difference between software mixes and million dollar console. the panning is extrememly realistic
just popped in those sound effect cds to listen again.......theres one with a hair dryer goin around your head like u were drying ur own hair and I swear to god it gave me chill bumps and was very VERY freaky!
this **** is amazing
I WANT THIS
HELP!
If anyone saw my post about a million dollar sound this is a million dollar effect to me

[vaesion]

i tested the surround panner in the fireworx
it doesnt compare
i wonder if surround sound mixes sound this way on stereo equipment

[vaesion]

ok........in fine print
it says recorded digitally in phase coherent stereo
for enhanced spatial imaging

how can i achieve this?
waves stereo enhancers didnt work either

[vaesion]

yes head phones.........
im looking into it now
im hoping these plugs do it

[SnakeCained]

Don't forget you can vary the surround panner settings in Nuendo.
I'll second any vote for the Soundfield Mic!!!! The motorbike is stunning.

[vaesion]

besides using simple phase shifting are you saying that I can achieve more complex panning and positioning with nuendos surround settings on a "stereo" system or headphones?
everything I see is 5.1 this and that......what can i do with stereo

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by vaesion
Im wondering how many of you guys use the haas effect/ phase shifting to make sounds sit in the mix.
Also....... Do the big SSL's have Stereo surround panning in them with joy sticks for positioning that goes beyond normal panning in something like Nuendo.
and the last thing..........
Would it be an advantage for me to use the surround panner in the fireworx to have a more professional spaced out mix?

Brother B

The best use for this is the Desper Spatializer with the joysticks.

You can push certain things further outside if need be(which to me is the best use fo Spatialization on a stereo mix).

For the auto-panning from one side to another, i still love the old ADR Panscan.

Sure you can draw it in PT, but the Panscan gives you the cool character along with the effect.

[vaesion]

ive never learned much about building a mix vertically.
how do u do that or what is the goal when doing it

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by vaesion

ive never learned much about building a mix vertically.
how do u do that or what is the goal when doing it

This is a huge subject!!!!

Mainly there are 3 major tricks you can use: phase correlation, time correlation and EQ. Phase and time will tell the brain where the sound comes mainly on the horizontal axis. EQ on the vertical and horizontal axis.

First, timing with the Haas effect. No matter what the SPL is, time is more important than loudness - in this case. Haas effect starts at 0,6ms up to 50ms. Then most people will start hearing an echo.

Talking about phase, the brain can "sense" phase correlation only up to a certain wavelength, i.e. hardly higher than 0,6ms (here's a link to Haas as well), which is about 20cm / 1650Hz. Higher than that, the brain gets "confused" and cannot "phase lock" anymore (since the wavelength is getting shorter than the distance between your ears). Changes in the "phase lock" pattern will give infos to your brain regarding movements of the sound in space (link this to the Haas effect as well: time shift = phase shift).

Eq: The "pinna" of your ear has a very specific shape that actually does influence the way you perceive sound a great deal. It works mostly in the high frequencies and will give you extra infos on where the sound comes from on the vertical and horizontal axis. For example, sounds coming from the front will be influenced by the Pinna in such a way that roughly 6K and 12k freq will be exagerated. Then you know "better" it's coming from the front. A dip in those freq will tell you the sound pbly comes from the back. I guess you will find a graph on the internet showing you how the pinna colours the sound at various angles. Also, your head will absorb freq higher than 300Hz, so if a sound is coming straight from the right the first thing your left ear will hear is the same sound as the right ear, but with a roll off from 300Hz, and a .6ms time delay + phase shift.

So if you want a sound to come from the complete rear in a mix, don't use Haas for stereo but for depth (since L/R timing is not involved if it comes straight from the back), use EQs, and you will fool the brain (though not totally, you may want to dephase it a bit to exagerate all that). One thing is also that the direct sound coming from the back will have a dip in some freq (due to pinna) but reflections may not (coming from different angles), that's a trick to use as well.

SO, To have it up or down on the vertical axis, use EQ only (with a very high Q = 10), sweep the highs until you "feel" it's right... Have you noticed that when you hear a low freq noise, you will tend to look down for something on the ground for ex, and when you hear a high pitched noise, you will tend to look up? That's an effect of the Pinna.

If you want to make a sound move all around you, you will have to calculate for each degree the phase, timing and Eq variation it creates. And that is REALLY hard to do!!!

To me , the goal is just in spacing the instrument in realistic ways.

I hope that helped you in a way... My english is not so good...