BAD mic/pre combinations?

danbronson · 6th August 2008, 11:40 PM

What mic and pre combinations have you heard that just didn't work?

I'm hoping to get a bit of discussion going about this. What is it exactly that causes a mic and pre to work or not work together? Simply an impedance thing? If so, is there a way of predicting how well certain pieces of gear will work? Or is it a matter of trial and error?

Feel free to mention any mic/pre combinations that sound excellent as well!

Thebassist · 6th August 2008, 11:59 PM

Dude.

ANY mic+ focuswrong. Generally speaking, I don't believe in "bad" combinations, but the weakest part of your signal chain is going to set the bar...

Recently posted about the danger of making your signal "too warm-" never tell your clients which gear you have has tubes. I had a guy insist on a tube everything path recently because some stupid f*cking magazine told him that made things sound good. Even with gain set properly, too much tube or iron is going to wickedly color your signal. Ok for shitty Indie rawk, terrible for almost anything else.

But I'm maybe not right one to talk to about this. I sold all my "vintage" gear and bought euphonic/ transparent pres. Much easier to mix, IME.

chrysb93065 · 7th August 2008, 12:05 AM

Don't have any actual BAD combinations, but tube mic to tube pre can be overkill. Also, ribbons need lots of gain, and NEVER run phantom to a ribbon, unless it's designed for it (ie - Royer).

kittonian · 7th August 2008, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrysb93065

Don't have any actual BAD combinations, but tube mic to tube pre can be overkill.

Amen to that. I never run tube mics through tube mic-pre's. It's just a bad idea IMO.

warhead · 7th August 2008, 12:20 AM

Everything up until the late 60's was tube mic to tube preamp for the most part...

War

danbronson · 7th August 2008, 05:59 AM

Interesting. I often read of people saying "_____ mic is such a great match with ____ preamp". I kind of figured that meant some combinations could sound pretty bad too. But you guys are saying there's no bad sounding combo? Really? There's never been a time you tried a mic into a preamp and said "wow, that sucks away everything I like about these two pieces of gear"?

I wouldn't really know, I've only ever owned one set of pres.

Full Clip Audio · 7th August 2008, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittonian

Amen to that. I never run tube mics through tube mic-pre's. It's just a bad idea IMO.

Wha?!?! Really? Im sort of shocked to see people saying this. Of course everyone is free to do as they see fit but I do it all the time with great results. It has been done for ages! I dont personally understand the idea that just because something has a tube in it, it is going to be really "warm" or have some overwhelming character that will build up in a nasty way if used with another tube. Oddly enough, the way people describe and think about tubes sometimes sounds like tubes when they first start to go bad.

As for bad combinations.....

The Blue "Ball" with anything

basho · 7th August 2008, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warhead

Everything up until the late 60's was tube mic to tube preamp for the most part...

War

Not forgetting the tube guitar amplifiers, the tube console, the tube tape machine, the tube compressors, tube power amps etc etc.

alexkemp · 7th August 2008, 08:45 AM

I hear what you're saying. For my own tastes, I wouldn't run a 414 through an API 512 if I could avoid it-- that's too much 'forwardness' to try to mellow out later on in a mix. On the other hand, I love using mu soundelux e47 (tube mic) through a LaChapell 583s tube pre-- cause the really good tube sh*t is musical, but not colored just for the sake of being colored. Run an Avant tube mic through an ART tube pre and you'll probably wonder who put the sock in front of your tweeters!

I guess I'm just another red-blooded american gearslut who goes for hot tube on tube action. There are worse vices.

khai · 7th August 2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittonian

Amen to that. I never run tube mics through tube mic-pre's. It's just a bad idea IMO.

I hear this kind of comment everywhere…

This had tubes ALL OVER THE SOUND CHAIN from the mics (Neumann M49) down to the tape recorder (Ampex 350). Does it sound like the accumulation of a "bad idea"?

YouTube - MILES DAVIS -"Will O' The Wisp" (1960)

khai · 7th August 2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittonian

Amen to that. I never run tube mics through tube mic-pre's. It's just a bad idea IMO.

I hear this kind of comment everywhere…

This had tubes ALL OVER THE SOUND CHAIN from the mics (Neumann M49) down to the tape recorder (Ampex 350). Does it sound like the accumulation of a "bad idea"?

YouTube - MILES DAVIS -"Will O' The Wisp" (1960)

Drumsound · 7th August 2008, 11:11 AM

Bad combination?

SM57 with music or voice. Especially bad when plugged into a Mackie 8 bus.

Never1 · 7th August 2008, 12:04 PM

Anything plugged into an avalon 737 haha.

I second the tube mic to tube pre idea, only under the condition that both the mic and the pre are overly "tube-y" in a bad way and we're talking vocals, here. There can be something really pleasant about it at first, then you get to final mix time and realize there's just way too much harmonic content making things a mushy mess, to get it to sit right. Depends on the style and the mix but as a general rule I will never plug one into the other.

one exception is on drum overheads. Love the warmth of the combo if I'm looking for less detail and transients from my cymbal shots and going for a more swooosh kinda thing. Can really do nice things to the snare as well.

TheChariot · 7th August 2008, 01:14 PM

Tape is very forgiving when your signal chain is littered with tubes.

Much love to the MS-16 I use at the studio.

asagaai · 7th August 2008, 01:25 PM

[quote=Never1;2978011]I second the tube mic to tube pre idea, only under the condition that both the mic and the pre are overly "tube-y" in a bad way and we're talking vocals, here. There can be something really pleasant about it at first, then you get to final mix time and realize there's just way too much harmonic content making things a mushy mess, to get it to sit right. quote]

Must be some pretty crappy tube pres out there. Running a Pearlman TM1 through an ADL600 equals wide airy BIG vocals -and mushy does not describe it.

Likewise a Pearlman through Sebatron VMP 4000- again big wide detailed sound- full and aggressively detailed in the mids-again not mushy (low boost off). Darker than ADL600- even with air engaged.

I love running my Pearlman TM1 through these pres on vocals more than my solid state Pacifica-which is great but does not have the spatial detail of my tube pres. Rules

-just mix/match gear by ear and to taste of the session.

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

doorknocker · 7th August 2008, 01:52 PM

My KM 54 sounds great thru a UA 6176. Folks have such strange misconceptions about tubes. A tube amp isn't a distortion box and zillions of great records have been made with tube mics into tube pres.

whitepapagold · 7th August 2008, 02:20 PM

Wow... This thread is depressing. I guess no music was recorded properly prior to solid state technology...

And Kittonian sells gear, right?

Yikes bad answers guys.... REALLY bad answers....

Colorblind · 7th August 2008, 02:51 PM

wow, people really love to bash this guy. Last time I checked, everyone was entitled to their own opinion. He did write "IMO", in case anyone missed that.

C

whitepapagold · 7th August 2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colorblind

wow, people really love to bash this guy. Last time I checked, everyone was entitled to their own opinion. He did write "IMO", in case anyone missed that.

C

That still means there was nothing properly recorded prior to solid state IHO.

Is that a better way to put it? Saying a tube mic NEVER goes with a tube pre is INSANE regardless of if its an opinion or not...

ESPECIALLY if you sell gear...

bdubya · 7th August 2008, 03:18 PM

Like war and others said . . . didn't seem to be a problem for a HUGE number of recordings back in the day. Pretty sound logic there . . . although engineering as a profession was just a BIT more exclusive of a club back then, as well. There wasn't such a thing as low-end, or mid-grade gear, or the huge variety of gear available today, or the huge variety of dealers hawking there wares to the unsuspecting public . . . . but c'mon, didn't you stop taking certain advice from certain folks on here a WHILE ago?? I know I did . . .

Gabriel Sousa · 7th August 2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warhead

Everything up until the late 60's was tube mic to tube preamp for the most part...

War

ho yeah, u47 + v72 its heaven....

Thebassist · 7th August 2008, 03:36 PM

Quality gear never sounds bad with quality gear, IME. The records from pre-SS days were made in professional studios (often...) with high quality gear all around. Yes, tube and tape everything, but this doesn't always translate to digital sterility world.

Just one starved plate in your signal chain will make your sound turn brown and runny.

Most of the complaints I hear here and elsewhere have more to do with *one* piece of gear than the actual combo- IE, a 414 will sound forward through anything, most of us will hate on Avalon even if it's got a C12 in front of it, and a Pearlman will sound great even through a Mackie console.

More vital many times is the combo of mic to appropriately matched source. I see many guys scrambling trying to match mic A to Pre B when the source to mic combo is just poop. No Mic pre I've ever seen or owned could fix that!

BTW my comments about too much tube were genre specific... a time and a place for everything.
J

vernier · 7th August 2008, 05:11 PM

AntillesSound · 7th August 2008, 09:11 PM

A Beta 58 plugged into any Neve VR series onboard pre.

Gross. Gross. Gross.

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6th August 2008, 11:40 PM	#1
danbronson Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 596	BAD mic/pre combinations? What mic and pre combinations have you heard that just didn't work? I'm hoping to get a bit of discussion going about this. What is it exactly that causes a mic and pre to work or not work together? Simply an impedance thing? If so, is there a way of predicting how well certain pieces of gear will work? Or is it a matter of trial and error? Feel free to mention any mic/pre combinations that sound excellent as well!

7th August 2008, 12:20 AM	#5
warhead Jai guru deva om Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8,328	Everything up until the late 60's was tube mic to tube preamp for the most part... War __________________ Warren Dent Email: warren (at) frontendaudio (dot) com Front End Audio Sells Gear Tuesday Testers: Hear the Gear Shootouts Product Videos on YouTube: Overviews of Gear

7th August 2008, 11:11 AM	#12
Drumsound Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bloomington Il Posts: 3,600	Bad combination? SM57 with music or voice. Especially bad when plugged into a Mackie 8 bus. __________________ Tony Oxide Lounge Recording See the Oxide Lounge! WWJMD? Come see me on the Tape Op boards! "If I have to flip flop more than three times in an A/B test to figure out what the difference is, I lose interest in that difference.'--Tchad Blake

7th August 2008, 01:25 PM	#15
asagaai Gear addict Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Newcastle/OZ Posts: 392	[quote=Never1;2978011]I second the tube mic to tube pre idea, only under the condition that both the mic and the pre are overly "tube-y" in a bad way and we're talking vocals, here. There can be something really pleasant about it at first, then you get to final mix time and realize there's just way too much harmonic content making things a mushy mess, to get it to sit right. quote] Must be some pretty crappy tube pres out there. Running a Pearlman TM1 through an ADL600 equals wide airy BIG vocals -and mushy does not describe it. Likewise a Pearlman through Sebatron VMP 4000- again big wide detailed sound- full and aggressively detailed in the mids-again not mushy (low boost off). Darker than ADL600- even with air engaged. I love running my Pearlman TM1 through these pres on vocals more than my solid state Pacifica-which is great but does not have the spatial detail of my tube pres. Rules-just mix/match gear by ear and to taste of the session. GJ Newcastle/OZ

6th August 2008, 11:59 PM	#2
Thebassist Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Chicago, Chicago Posts: 303	Dude. ANY mic+ focuswrong. Generally speaking, I don't believe in "bad" combinations, but the weakest part of your signal chain is going to set the bar... Recently posted about the danger of making your signal "too warm-" never tell your clients which gear you have has tubes. I had a guy insist on a tube everything path recently because some stupid f*cking magazine told him that made things sound good. Even with gain set properly, too much tube or iron is going to wickedly color your signal. Ok for shitty Indie rawk, terrible for almost anything else. But I'm maybe not right one to talk to about this. I sold all my "vintage" gear and bought euphonic/ transparent pres. Much easier to mix, IME.

7th August 2008, 12:05 AM	#3
chrysb93065 Gear maniac Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 194	Don't have any actual BAD combinations, but tube mic to tube pre can be overkill. Also, ribbons need lots of gain, and NEVER run phantom to a ribbon, unless it's designed for it (ie - Royer).

7th August 2008, 05:59 AM	#6
danbronson Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 596	Interesting. I often read of people saying "_____ mic is such a great match with ____ preamp". I kind of figured that meant some combinations could sound pretty bad too. But you guys are saying there's no bad sounding combo? Really? There's never been a time you tried a mic into a preamp and said "wow, that sucks away everything I like about these two pieces of gear"? I wouldn't really know, I've only ever owned one set of pres.

7th August 2008, 08:45 AM	#9
alexkemp Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: santa monica, ca Posts: 119	I hear what you're saying. For my own tastes, I wouldn't run a 414 through an API 512 if I could avoid it-- that's too much 'forwardness' to try to mellow out later on in a mix. On the other hand, I love using mu soundelux e47 (tube mic) through a LaChapell 583s tube pre-- cause the really good tube sh*t is musical, but not colored just for the sake of being colored. Run an Avant tube mic through an ART tube pre and you'll probably wonder who put the sock in front of your tweeters! I guess I'm just another red-blooded american gearslut who goes for hot tube on tube action. There are worse vices.

7th August 2008, 12:04 PM	#13
Never1 Gear maniac Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 216	Anything plugged into an avalon 737 haha. I second the tube mic to tube pre idea, only under the condition that both the mic and the pre are overly "tube-y" in a bad way and we're talking vocals, here. There can be something really pleasant about it at first, then you get to final mix time and realize there's just way too much harmonic content making things a mushy mess, to get it to sit right. Depends on the style and the mix but as a general rule I will never plug one into the other. one exception is on drum overheads. Love the warmth of the combo if I'm looking for less detail and transients from my cymbal shots and going for a more swooosh kinda thing. Can really do nice things to the snare as well.

7th August 2008, 01:14 PM	#14
TheChariot Gear Head Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Allston, MA Posts: 73	Tape is very forgiving when your signal chain is littered with tubes. Much love to the MS-16 I use at the studio.

7th August 2008, 01:52 PM	#16
doorknocker Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Basel, Switzerland Posts: 3,618	My KM 54 sounds great thru a UA 6176. Folks have such strange misconceptions about tubes. A tube amp isn't a distortion box and zillions of great records have been made with tube mics into tube pres. __________________ Andi www.doorknocker.ch 'You'd be surprised how much it costs to look this cheap! - Dolly Parton

7th August 2008, 02:20 PM	#17
whitepapagold Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Newport Beach, California Posts: 934	Wow... This thread is depressing. I guess no music was recorded properly prior to solid state technology... And Kittonian sells gear, right? Yikes bad answers guys.... REALLY bad answers....

7th August 2008, 02:51 PM	#18
Colorblind Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 257	wow, people really love to bash this guy. Last time I checked, everyone was entitled to their own opinion. He did write "IMO", in case anyone missed that. C

7th August 2008, 03:18 PM	#20
bdubya Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 158	Like war and others said . . . didn't seem to be a problem for a HUGE number of recordings back in the day. Pretty sound logic there . . . although engineering as a profession was just a BIT more exclusive of a club back then, as well. There wasn't such a thing as low-end, or mid-grade gear, or the huge variety of gear available today, or the huge variety of dealers hawking there wares to the unsuspecting public . . . . but c'mon, didn't you stop taking certain advice from certain folks on here a WHILE ago?? I know I did . . .

7th August 2008, 03:36 PM	#22
Thebassist Gear addict Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Chicago, Chicago Posts: 303	Quality gear never sounds bad with quality gear, IME. The records from pre-SS days were made in professional studios (often...) with high quality gear all around. Yes, tube and tape everything, but this doesn't always translate to digital sterility world. Just one starved plate in your signal chain will make your sound turn brown and runny. Most of the complaints I hear here and elsewhere have more to do with one piece of gear than the actual combo- IE, a 414 will sound forward through anything, most of us will hate on Avalon even if it's got a C12 in front of it, and a Pearlman will sound great even through a Mackie console. More vital many times is the combo of mic to appropriately matched source. I see many guys scrambling trying to match mic A to Pre B when the source to mic combo is just poop. No Mic pre I've ever seen or owned could fix that! BTW my comments about too much tube were genre specific... a time and a place for everything. J

7th August 2008, 05:11 PM	#23
vernier Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,674	__________________ http://www.myspace.com/learstevens

7th August 2008, 09:11 PM	#24
AntillesSound Gear addict Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: East Bay, Ca Posts: 308	A Beta 58 plugged into any Neve VR series onboard pre. Gross. Gross. Gross. __________________ Brad Dollar Lead Engineer, Bay Area Sound Studios Rehearse, Track, Mix, Master! http://bayareasoundstudios.com

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