If I can hear a guitar's depth from playing vinyl, why can't I hear it on my monitors

[heisleyamor]

I'm listening to Minus the Bear - Planet of Ice on vinyl. The guitars sound amazing and you can really tell they were recorded with a room mic in parts. When I listen to the digital mix of planet of ice I don't hear the depth of the guitars. Is this my D/A mainly? I'm using KRK RP6 monitors right now. Which aren't the best, but I'm wondering if upgrading my d/a will give me the depth I need to hear in mixes. Unless It's just a digital/vinyl thing.

[Kiwiburger]

And you are comparing your turntable & cd player through the same speakers?
What is your turntable?
What is your D/A?
Anything else in the equation - mixer, phono preamp?

There is a very real possibility that the vinyl mix is totally different with different reverbs etc. Very often what you think might be room mics in a mix can turn out to be artificial reverb applied later.

Vinyl in theory has the higher noise floor, lower dynamic range, and higher distortion and wow/flutter. That might add to the enjoyment of the listening experience, but generally doesn't improve the fidelity of reverb tails.

IMO it is the removal of noise and jitter that reveals reverb tails. Getting a Benchmark DAC-1 and upgrading my power amps certainly made a big difference for me. But it depends on what you are comparing with.

Make sure it isn't some simple like an out of phase cable or a mono/stereo width difference. Sometimes reducing the stereo width can increase depth: the reflections that contribute to a 'wide' sound get summed and they then contribute to making the sound more distant and often stronger.

[heisleyamor]

They are different speakers and I did use a phono preamp with the record. The record and the CD should be the same recording. They mastered it finally for vinyl. But that master went to CD also. I guess I'm just basically trying to get more depth in my monitors. Unless I need new monitors. hmm

[Bierce85]

I haven't heard the vinyl but I've heard the planet of ice CD and noticed it was totally smashed in mastering. This might be taking away some of the depth you were hearing on the vinyl. Just a thought.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by heisleyamor

They are different speakers and I did use a phono preamp with the record. The record and the CD should be the same recording. They mastered it finally for vinyl. But that master went to CD also. I guess I'm just basically trying to get more depth in my monitors. Unless I need new monitors. hmm

Reverb and room ambience can really sound different on different speakers. Hearing more reverb/ambience on a pair of speakers does not necessarily mean they are better speakers. The freq response may simply favor key ranges. Also, RIAA EQ compensation on phonos is not always exactly 100% accurate so there's room for some divergence there, as well -- but I'm betting it's primarily the speakers and, then, to some extent the rest of the chain.

The reason I have a pair of NS10m's and a pair of Event 20/20bas is because they both sound very, very different and reveal different things. A mix will sound strikingly different going back and forth between them.

[heisleyamor]

well do you recommend I get new monitors or a better DAC?

[Kiwiburger]

Personally, doing it again, I would buy the Benchmark DAC-1 again in a heartbeat - with a high end pair of headphones, and be able to hear all the fidelity and/or imperfections of digital recordings. You will definately be able to hear reverb tails with these.

All monitors speakers are compromised to some extent - they all sound different, at all price points, so none of them can claim the perfect flat response that they all claim. Your room will affect what you hear - so look at room design & acoustic treatment too.

So what i'm saying is - until you have a lot more money - you are probably better off learning to live with the monitors you have. They probably aren't limiting your career at this stage. Especially if you have something like a DAC-1 & great headphones for critical listening.

Noise floor masks reverb tails. Many active monitors have high noise floor. Many rooms have high noise floor. (The DAC-1 is virtually silent - and i'm extremely fussy about noise). I've got some passive Dynaudio BM5's, and I run a Lab Gruppen power amp outside my room to keep the transformer noise away. That might be outside your price range - and frankly, there are better speakers and amps - it's just a question of how much you want to pay.

Getting back to your experiment - try running your phone preamp through the same speakers, so at the very least you are comparing apples with apples ...

Also - trying moving your speakers around the room. Place them together, hear how they sound (check for phase cancellation) - move them apart - find the sweet spot ... you could be surprised.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by heisleyamor

well do you recommend I get new monitors or a better DAC?

Well, count me in the camp that doesn't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your current DAC and monitors simply because you can hear more reverb on a different rig.

Like I said not far above, just because a given audio system makes the reverb/ambience more prominent does not necessarily mean it is better. In fact, it might have the high end all jacked up out of wack and create that impression.

[Kiwiburger]

What are the speakers in your turntable setup that appeared to be better? Hifi speakers? A mono 4" speaker in a portable player?

IMO it's not a bad idea to have a choice of speaker systems anyway - maybe get yourself a speaker switchbox.

[heisleyamor]

I was using older Bose speakers. There isn't too much high end on them (can't get too much high end with vinyl anyways)...I don't know. Maybe i just like the way vinyl sounds with out the digital high end that takes away the depth of the mix. I've heard from a couple of different threads/shootouts/reviews that the Lavry da10 is better than the dac1. Not quite sure. I would lovvve to get 1 of the 2, but I need to find a way to make 1,000 dollars in the next 2 months because I'm impatient.

[Audiop]

Those Bose speakers (yuck!) are those of the kind that used several small widerange drivers pointing in several directions?

In such case, wide dispersion speakers may play tricks with room acoustics and can give the impresion of depth and a diffuse blownup soundstage. Not my cup of tea though and this kind of playback use to mask real depth and dimensions in a good recording.

Other than that, as allready mentioned you can never count on the CD and vinyl to have equal quality masters. Someone I know have analysed (using suitable software to see the waveform) a hundred or so CD's vs vinyl and the limiting and compression on the CD's use to be nothing less than horrible.

Also you can never compare in different rooms and on different set ups. All things can have an effect but especially rom and speakers have a huge effect due to extreme variation.


/Peter

[u b k]

were these listening sessions even in the same room?


gregoire
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