Warm Pre for my whiney voice

[Prickstein]

Hey Folks

Been busy for the last couple of years doin records for everyone else but now it's time to work on my own stuff again. Problem is I don't have a very full sounding singing voice unless I'm singing down low in pitch!
I wanna put the feelers out for a "warm" sounding preamp to fatten me up a bit.
Mic wise I got access to a Soundelux U195 which my friend kindly lends me, which sounds great on female vox, otherwise I got me a couple of Rode NTK's which I don't mind on male vox (but I'm not in love with, I use them as overheads on drums)
Any ideas? (I've already booked in for singing lessons)

[Dot]

Prickstein, you should consider a Sebatron mics pre. They're made in Oz. http://www.sebatron.com All-tube, hand-built gear. Look at their two-channel vmp-2000e or even the single-channel vmp-1000e. They also have the new Thorax channel strip - with mic pre, EQ and comp. All the units are warm and you can get enough color from them [ depending on how you drive the input and output ] to thicken your voice nicely.

if the U195 is working for you - with the Fat switch on - that's great. If you want to get into a mic with some color and body that will thicken a thinner voice, look into the ADK TT, ADK CE, Peluso 22 47, Blue Blueberry.

[chetatkinsdiet]

You don't mention how your voice sounds, or the style of music you're recording, but either way, I'd say a Shure SM7 into an OSA/API mic pre would do wonders. This combination is magic for just about everything if front of it.
later,
m

[biggator6]

I have what I consider to be a bit of a nasal singing voice, and have never really liked the tone I'd got from my gear.

Recently - picked up a Rode K2 (highly recommended) and a Vintech X73i.. this combination gets me so much farther than any gear I'd previously used. Takes the 'icepick in the forehead' right out of my voice.
"-)

[rynugz007]

if the U195 is working for you - with the Fat switch on - that's great. If you want to get into a mic with some color and body that will thicken a thinner voice, look into the ADK TT, ADK CE, Peluso 22 47, Blue Blueberry.

There is nothing thick about the blueberry at all. Dont get me wrong, i actually like the blueberry on my voice because my voice is dull and dark. The blueberry is super bright in my opinion. If your voice is thin with a lot of upper mid energy, i would stay away from the blueberry especially for rock.

[lucey]

Right 007 ... the U195 is not dark either ... it's got a presence peak


I would second the idea of a dynamic like an SM7 (or the RE20 or an M88.)

And a darker pre like an API.

If you want a condenser sound the U47 copy attempts (except Soundelux - go S49) should be darkish.

[BattleAngel]

I don't think my voice exactly sounds whiney, but it does need some thickening when recording- I've got a bunch of great pre's here at my pretty nice home pad: pendulum quartet, great river, wunder, and cranesong, with RNP's and an Avalon on hand if I need them. Of these pre's, the best for my voice that adds fatness and warmth without sounding flubby at all is the Crane Song spider pre, which you can get in a standalone unit called the Flamingo. There is a thread going on about this unit right now, I think in High End. For my projects, Crane Song gear has been worth its weight in gold... or whatever precious stones they have on the planet where this stuff was built ;-)

[chetatkinsdiet]

A slight 15 ms delay from a nice old Lex sounds pretty nice sometimes for thickening up voices.
later,
m

[squeegybug]

I didn't care much for the U195 on male voices. AEA R84 is the "fullest" sound I've found for that. Very pleasing and solid, a resonant sound. Will actually need a little 10K shelf added back in, and it's easy to do.

Shure KSM27/44 has a nice full sound, not hyped, and can be worked easily for proximity effects. Goes to 20 Hz too.

An A Designs preamp at 600 ohm impedance will bring a smooth, full midrange/bass to just about any mic I've tried.

The Vintech X73i at 300 ohm pairs very well with the R84, and the EQ is excellent if you want to be even more creative.

For what you're asking, I'd sure recommend getting a preamp with variable impedance, can often really alter your chosen mic's tone.


Steve

[blackcatdigi]

Originally posted by rynugz007
There is nothing thick about the blueberry at all. Dont get me wrong, i actually like the blueberry on my voice because my voice is dull and dark. The blueberry is super bright in my opinion. If your voice is thin with a lot of upper mid energy, i would stay away from the blueberry especially for rock.

I was thinking the same thing.

Blueberry was designed to be 'similar' to a U87 only without the proximity effect... IOW, reduced lows when working the mic close in, rather than hyped highs.

Sounds fabulous on acoustic guitar, BTW, for precisely that reason.

[thethrillfactor]

No mic preamp or compressor can really fatten the voice.

They can bring certain aspects that are there already to the for front.

Same goes for mics.

I think people really get caught up in finding replacements for things that aren't there already.

When you do this you end up with vocal tracks that come out dull and at times over compressed.

Than at mixdown you have to over process them to make them sound normal.

I prefer your idea of singing in keys that can make the your voice sound "thicker".

Also the arrangement/production can help support this.

[lucey]

a voice is a voice, yet screaming into an uncompressed U195 for hardcore probably makes no sense compared to screaming into an SM7 with a compressor at -20 to -10

and no matter the mic, eventually it's compression and eq time

[BattleAngel]

I hear what Thrill is saying, it's important to distinguish between the search for a pre that "saves" or "tames" your vocal sound and the search for a pre that unites with your vocal sound. You're doing the right thing by getting training. Another thing that helped me was using whatever crappy gear I could get my hands on, a shitty tape casette recorder, a computer mic and microsoft wave recorder, etc. and just hammering away at myself until I got the sound I wanted to hear. You know you hear your voice on family tapes and you're like "ugh... shoot me, that's what I sound like?" Well I haven't nipped that in the bud, but if you can tweak your singing in private, that's a great thing to do.

And once you do that, just find the 'right' gear for you, mentally, sonically, and physically (how far you like to stand back, how loud you like to sing, how much compression you need if you're quiet, etc.) and get to the rocking.

[NathanEldred]

The U195 has a peak in the highs, but is actually attenuated in the high mids, meaning you shouldn't have a problem with an overly aggressive presence range. Especially if you turn on the FAT switch simulatenously with the 30hz roll off (pop filter is mandatory at this point). If that right there doesn't do wonders, then I would get a Great River 1NV. When pushed heavily, there is a rise in the low frequencies (the 1NV does this differently than any other preamp that I've heard, even those based on Neve designs), which to me is one part in the equation of smoothing out a thin voice.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
No mic preamp or compressor can really fatten the voice.

They can bring certain aspects that are there already to the for front.

Same goes for mics.

I think people really get caught up in finding replacements for things that aren't there already.

When you do this you end up with vocal tracks that come out dull and at times over compressed.

Than at mixdown you have to over process them to make them sound normal.

I prefer your idea of singing in keys that can make the your voice sound "thicker".

Also the arrangement/production can help support this.

Yep this is very true. Playing with different keys on the song will help a ton more, and also knowing the limitations of your vocal ability helps alot to. aka, don't sing what you can, but sing what you feel more confortable with. Choosing different gear will only play with EQ not your vocal timbre witch I believe bothers you most. This happens to me, and I just recently found where I like my voice sound best.. and started to write songs accordingly with my limitations.

[Prickstein]

Some good suggestions guys, thanks heaps

I'm not that keen on the U195 on male vox, A/B'd it on a couple of guys last week and the NTK sounded better IMHO. Bit tubby in the lower mids but it's great on female vox. That was through a Langevin AM16 pre.
I might have to give a K2 a try, heard a few good reports.

Yet to try Sebatron so I should give my fellow countryman a shot before I decide on anything, and a Great River MP or Vintech X73 is definately on my shopping list!

SM7 is probably something I should have seeing as I do a lot of rock records, I've been hassling the radio station I used to work at to sell me one of their old ones for ages!

[davemc]

A sebatrons a very colored mic pre. 2 channels would do for me.
Although there is a 4 channel going for cheap in NSW on local ebay.

If in QLD why not try http://www.jlmaudio.com
He also does hire
Either way try before you buy.
Personally I would try a sm57 first and see.

[DAWgEAR]

Originally posted by rynugz007
There is nothing thick about the blueberry at all. Dont get me wrong, i actually like the blueberry on my voice because my voice is dull and dark. The blueberry is super bright in my opinion. If your voice is thin with a lot of upper mid energy, i would stay away from the blueberry especially for rock.

I agree to a certain extent ... but which pre you pair it with can make a difference.

I have a high-ish tenor voice. I own a several mics including a Blueberry, and an ISA 430 Mk II, Avalon 737sp, a Voicemaster Pro, and a few other not-very-noteworthy pres. I've used the Blueberry with the ISA 430 Mk II and it definitely sounds thin ... great for airy background vocals. With the Voicemaster Pro it sounds plenty full, and with the Avalon 737 it sounds very full and warm in a 737-ish way. All of this is for my voice. The proximity effect is minimized, so the singer needs to be within 2 or 3 inches (max) of the capsule to get any proximity effect.

For me, it confirms the idea that it's good to have a selection of mics and pres, because when you mix and match singers, mics, and pres, the results are not always predictable.

[Prickstein]

Originally posted by davemc
If in QLD why not try http://www.jlmaudio.com
He also does hire

HI Dave, I do use Joe's TMP-8 pre's at the jingle co. I work at, and MP-8's at Modern Music when I do stuff there. The Langevins I mentioned are the ones on Joe's website. The VMP-2 might be in the run for what I'm looking for. Might have to hit him up for a spin.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
This happens to me, and I just recently found where I like my voice sound best.. and started to write songs accordingly with my limitations.

Hey Jose,

Guys like Lionel Richie,Dave Matthews,Phil Collins,Trent Reznor,Sting and countless others have made a fortune doing the same thing.

Knowing your limitations and working within them is the key to great vocal productions and everything else in life.

[chap]

I'm with Thrill on this. Find the range in your voice that works best and redo the song.
There's a million whiney singers working day jobs.
If you can't do that, Try a Vox Box. I prefer a SLAM! or Vipre or PAL for vocals but you may need some color and the VB can be as dark as you like.
Tell it like it is Thrill.
chap

[KBOY]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
No mic preamp or compressor can really fatten the voice.

They can bring certain aspects that are there already to the for front.

Same goes for mics.

I think people really get caught up in finding replacements for things that aren't there already.

When you do this you end up with vocal tracks that come out dull and at times over compressed.

Than at mixdown you have to over process them to make them sound normal.

I prefer your idea of singing in keys that can make the your voice sound "thicker".

Also the arrangement/production can help support this.

I agree with this. Maybe you're singing in the wrong key. Don't be afraid, try it. It sounds as though you have some really really nice high end gear. You should be able to get there with the stuff you have.

I do also agree with the sm7 mic. It has a lot more meat to it. Maybe just get one of these. I personally would not suggest the R84. I have yet to find a male voice that sits in a mix properly without radical eq. High breathy females (which is what I bought mine for) seem to be amazing. I love this mic. But don't like it on acoustics/male voices. It's sounds unbelievable on just about everything else.

Kelly

[KBOY]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Hey Jose,

Guys like Lionel Richie,Dave Matthews,Phil Collins,Trent Reznor,Sting and countless others have made a fortune doing the same thing.

Knowing your limitations and working within them is the key to great vocal productions and everything else in life.

Hell yeah!

[davemc]

Originally posted by Prickstein
HI Dave, I do use Joe's TMP-8 pre's at the jingle co. I work at, and MP-8's at Modern Music when I do stuff there. The Langevins I mentioned are the ones on Joe's website. The VMP-2 might be in the run for what I'm looking for. Might have to hit him up for a spin.

I would also try before I brought with the sebatron.
It has a certain color on everything.
Reminded me of the 2-610 I used to own when I tried it.
The reason I sold the the 2-610 was a lot of the time the color it imparted was not what I wanted.

[Renie]

Hey Thrill

You've got a singer you're recording, you find the sweetest spot pitch wise, and still it lacks aura and fullness.

What advice would you give the singer to improve things
a) right now
b) for future reference?


Thanks!

[Norman Lindsey]

i wouldn't call the sebatron colored.i've borrowed one and found it quite transparant when driven rightly.this one is recorded with a vmp-4000e : it's on my next aquisition:
http://www.cheap-tracks.com/mp3/uui-12-24-04_sample.mp3
the gr-nv is another choice that could help that problem.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by Renie
Hey Thrill

You've got a singer you're recording, you find the sweetest spot pitch wise, and still it lacks aura and fullness.

What advice would you give the singer to improve things
a) right now
b) for future reference?


Thanks!

I'm not thrill but I have been battling this forever. Right now I would see if that singer conveys you anything while just singing with a guitar in a live situation, or your living room. If you like the sound of his voice without a mic on, then his problem is probably due to singing with headphones in a booth, or plain recording panic. And the solution with that is practice, along with a engineer or producer that makes him feel confortable. and many other psychological tricks engineers have to make a singer give a better perfomance. If the singer is used to sing songs with a guitar, try to record his voice with a guitar. I've posted about this a few months ago, and got many excellent different tips to overcome recording panic and make the best performance. Oh, and never ever record word by word, punch in punch out. do one take through the whole song , then another ,then another, do not pause during takes, never answer the phone while the singer is singing, always tell him he is great

[DirkB]

Originally posted by Renie
Hey Thrill

You've got a singer you're recording, you find the sweetest spot pitch wise, and still it lacks aura and fullness.

What advice would you give the singer to improve things
a) right now
b) for future reference?


Thanks!

Not Thrill either, but my §0.02:
use whatever processing necessary to get it to sound like you want it to IN THE MIX. I often find that especcially thinner voices can sit perfectly in todays crowded arrangements.
Otherwise some tips that might work:
- mult a distorted vocal a little under the lead
- Eventide stereo pitchshift programm, with some tops rolled of and gently mixed in to get some width and depth
- (mono) delay with tops rolled of
- mess with adding body to the voice with eq in the 150-500Hz region
- use compression and don't be afrain to slam the meters, just see what comes up
- ??

Good luck,
Dirk