Drum phase question

[TML]

Is it better to flip the overs out of phase with the rest of the kit or the close mics out of phase with the overs. I'm finding that placing an xy setup in front of the the kit in a small drum booth captures better but the drums sound punchier with the phase reversed on the overs....any takers...thanks,
Tim

[Wayne]

FWIW, I start with the kick doing positive excursion, then match from there. But it's true, many of different phase combos result in useful alternate flavors, not necessarily better or worse though.
Wayne

[TML]

Wayne-
Cool. yeah...were tracking a rock band as I type......drummer in a small 10 by 12 booth.....8ft ceiling.....I like the way an xy is sounding about 2ft in front of the kik...it seems the snare and kik sound way better...tighter punchier with the phase switched on the overs......i usually don't mic drums this way so I'm in new territory........I have the ability to hit phase on all drums 1073 on kik...312 on snare ...dakings on toms and 312's on overs....kit kinda blows...a dw pacific......my engineer made it sound alot better...funny what tuning and a few ape eq's can do.....
Tim

[bobby yarrow]

I usually listen to overheads with the phase flipped, but rarely wind up thinking it's better. I do sometimes move tracks a few ms forward or back, not by math but just by ear, til it sounds better -- I think this is an indirect phase apporach.

[Jules]

Whatever delivers the most low end punch is what I go for - fliping phase on 2 is better than flipping 10 (IMHO)

DONT FORGET - you are not cemented to your chair and neither are the mic's cemented in place - MOVE stuff in the quest for better sounds..

A phase flip is not an indication of incorrect placement. It's just part of your job to find the best phase setting on the equipment... Keep flipping to see what sounds best...

[TML]

I hear yah Jules. I'll be able to do more experimenting with this setup today since the band used most of yesterday to get tempo maps of their tunes. I usually use an xy over the drummers head, a spaced pair or close mic cymbals....never have I flipped the overheads and had such a clear image.

On another topic:
I wish there was an easier way to do tempo maps. I know beat detective will use say a kik ...to follow meter. I'd love to have a group play.....and use BD to come up with a rough tempo map so I can work faster before the band looses that energy.......then again...after you aliign every track....and make the greatest take the band NEVER played......there is no natural feel or energy.....what was I thinking....lol