Here is the answer!!

[nukmusic]

It's the fault of "TECHNOLOGY". Is it safe to say it has it's goods and bads????

Most of us can agree the the final CD quality of a $1,000,000 studio compared to a $100,000 studio (both with good engineers) will sound about the same when heard by the average consumer. Hypothetical situation........IF the consumers were given a choice of paying for studio time with the choice of say $200hr at the $1,000,000 studio or say $75hr at the $100,000 studio.............which one would most of them choose? .

Technology is developing so fast that we must figure out a way to prepare for it. That $5000 mic may look and sound great on the right voice.............but now-a-days...............so will that $1500 mic, preamp, compressor, eq etc etc. Years ago this wasn't the case. I still remember playing 3-on-3 football on my good Atari...........but now look how Playstation, X-box has taken over..............too bad my 11 year old son kicks my butt easily. But he can't play a lick of real football.

Same goes with CD burners and DVD burners. . Everybody and there momma has "TWO". Even bootlegging the bootleggers. I once overheard a bootlegger say that he hasn't been selling much. WTF??? I rememberoe time my wife got mad at me because I didn't give her the $2 more she needed to buy 3 burned cds...................man, I thought I was gonna get put out of the house.

And the INTERNET............. "nuff said" We just have to prepare for when the are no more places like TOWER RECORDS and when most "mainstream" artists are selling music straight from there home studios onto the internet. Does anyone still have any VHS movies ???? what about BETA movies???

[picksail]

So you are specifically blaming technology?

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by nukmusic
It's the fault of "TECHNOLOGY". Is it safe to say it has it's goods and bads????

Most of us can agree the the final CD quality of a $1,000,000 studio compared to a $100,000 studio (both with good engineers) will sound about the same when heard by the average consumer.

I don't agree. Put "wildflowers" next to any ITB production and the consumer will notice the difference. He will probably not be able to pin point and say what is different and probably doesnt care, but they sure will. what really depresses me is that alot of people in this forum have lowered their standards also. "working in my producers room is good enough attitude.

[jlotto]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
I don't agree. Put "wildflowers" next to any ITB production and the consumer will notice the difference. He will probably not be able to pin point and say what is different and probably doesnt care, but they sure will.

not true. experienced engineers here cant tell the difference between ITB productions and out the box productions. Been proven time and time again with listening comparison. They all have their reasons and predjudices and then they are wrong most of the time.

Consumers who cant tell the difference between a 128k mp3 and a 16/44.1 wav file cannot tell the difference. Thats why the mp3 explosion is so rampant. Ipods are so popular. Consumers are the only folks in the equation who could care less how a song is done or how it looks on a spectrum analyzer. They dont care if it was mixed on an ssl or a mackie (many hits were mixed on them mackie/adat combos).

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by jlotto
not true. experienced engineers here cant tell the difference between ITB productions and out the box productions.

ITB meaning, all tracked directly to PT and mixed only with pluggins ? is as equal of a recording quality as using outboard real analog gear and tape machines ? and experienced engineers cant tell the difference ? are you sure you recorded in mostly ever studio in NY and LA ? like you posted on the other thread ?

[Jose Mrochek]

what projects do you work on ? hip hop ?

[bdunard]

who cares? ...I can't say that enough...WHO CARES where a song was made. The fact is that some good songs are coming out of small studios and they are selling. Can you blame the smart money? A big studio does not make a great hook. Big studios were overpriced and underused and that equals $ disaster. I don't disagree that Wildflowers is incredible sounding but people are buying/choosing alot of records that are being made at small studios. I know if it was my label and my $ I would go with great engineers in small studios. So engineers should rejoice it is coming down to the song, the band and you. I think that is good.

[bunnerabb]

I have a lot of people, the "kids" I like to call them - between 21 and 35 - sharing their views with me on the state of music, these days. Some are very passionate about it, some sort of look at it as something to have on in the background. Normal attributes to any given degree of interest in any form... not everybody is a music aficionado... but they all have one thing in common. They all like songs. Not mixes.

They have no idea what the hell goes into assembling a mix, they just like the song or they don't. They may like it because of the mix, but they don't know that. It sounds "cool" or it sounds "crappy" or it's "kick ass" or "not really very well done".

They know what they like, but not why. They expect certain things from any given artist, and have no idea the degree to which the mix effects what they hear, and that's fine. That being said, POOR engineering and production values almost consistently lead to something being rejected out of hand.

It has to be listenable. They have no clue as to how this is achieved. The majority of people think that any given record's sound is simply what happens as that artist plugs in and opens their mouth.

You know what?

GOOD!

That's fine... but be warned: THEY KNOW WHEN SOMETHING SOUNDS SHIT. They can't say why, but they know a bad recording. Keeping the standards high is everybody's business. Writing brilliant, moving, fun, catchy, hook-y songs is the job of the artist and crafting them into well structured pieces of recorded music is the engineers, producer's AND artist's job.

Great pop songs aren't recorded, they're crafted piece by piece.

We need good writers. We need craftsmen behind the consoles with good tools and with a SENSE OF HISTORY. Who we are, culturally, is who we were, and nothing can evolve from a vacuum.

Everywhere I go, kids wanna rock.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by bdunard
who cares? ...I can't say that enough...WHO CARES where a song was made. .

the GS community SHOULD care. if not us who ? I know it's about the song, I see your point. a good one I might add, but hey.. look at the volume wars in mastering, that is the fact that engineers don't care anymore. you want it loud ? I'll give it to you loud.. I don't give a shit, give me the check.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by bunnerabb
That's fine... but be warned: THEY KNOW WHEN SOMETHING SOUNDS SHIT. They can't say why, but they know a bad recording. .

exactly

[jlotto]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
ITB meaning, all tracked directly to PT and mixed only with pluggins ? is as equal of a recording quality as using outboard real analog gear and tape machines ? and experienced engineers cant tell the difference ? are you sure you recorded in mostly ever studio in NY and LA ? like you posted on the other thread ?

what i pointed out was there have been countless comparisons made HERE on this forum. For example- A mixed itb, B mixed SSL, C mixed w/ Summing Box, D mixed to 1/2" CHOOSE which is which.

Every single damn test the majority of the experienced engineers here get wrong. Thats not by mistake. They all even have reasons why they pick which one they pick and they still get it wrong.

Now if experienced engineers here cant do it. dont expect consumers to, especially after project goes thru mastering process. If its coming off of the FM radio forget about it.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by jlotto
what i pointed out was there have been countless comparisons made HERE on this forum. For example- A mixed itb, B mixed SSL, C mixed w/ Summing Box, D mixed to 1/2" CHOOSE which is which.

Every single damn test the majority of the experienced engineers here get wrong. Thats not by mistake. They all even have reasons why they pick which one they pick and they still get it wrong.

Now if experienced engineers here cant do it. dont expect consumers to, especially after project goes thru mastering process. If its coming off of the FM radio forget about it.

I give up, you win.


But please just for fun, please purchase a recent DVD david guilmour has put out. It's a type of accoustic show. don't remember the name but it came out a year or 2 ago. you will find it on amazon. after you listen to that, if you think you can achive THAT in the box, without his use of Astoria and it's goodies. I promise, to shut up and not post again.

[bdunard]

Great pop songs aren't recorded, they're crafted piece by piece.
[/b]

But there are times when the band plays and you can just bring the faders up and it just rocks. Everything else is icing, cause the cake has already been baked. However, everyone who engineers knows that this pretty rare so I do think you make a valid point... I just wish my counter-point was more common.

[nukmusic]

Originally posted by picksail
So you are specifically blaming technology?

can we? or should we blame the people developing the TECHNOLOGY? Or should we blame the companies and the way they MARKET the TECHNOLOGY?
Stewart, maybe a combo of them. Would we be having these topics if stuff like CD/ DVD burners and cheaper, good quality recording gear wasn't upon us????

h

I give up, you win.I give up, you win.


But please just for fun, please purchase a recent DVD david guilmour has put out. It's a type of accoustic show. don't remember the name but it came out a year or 2 ago. you will find it on amazon. after you listen to that, if you think you can achive THAT in the box, without his use of Astoria and it's goodies. I promise, to shut up and not post again.

and Jose..................yes I care, and so do others when music is the thing you love and your income is being threatened. Are youe saying that some music doesn't get bootllegger or is not being affected by all this just because IT SOUNDS SO MUCH BETTER??? bottom line is that consumers don't give a super flying FUNK. Price dictates...............and free is the ultimate price. I wish "BILLS and EXPENSES" were free!!!!!!!!!!

A painter also cares how his picture looks after he finishes..............but how many consumers would buy the original painting for the ORIGINAL price or a Print that looks 98% like it for 1/4 the price?????

[nukmusic]

P.S. DVD's get bootlegged too......................... cheap digital camcorders.

The Feds just busted up a big store here in New Orleans.

[mac black]

LOL .. I was working at the Astoria and When heard the remixed version of Dark side of the moon in surround(it might have been the live gig in earls court...can't quite remember) In the studio I was blown away by the sound .

High end studios are amazing . But they dont give you Hit records and Turn crap songs to good ones.

The difference is in the producer/artist .
If you have a producer that cares for high quality result (like myself ) then it matters and the people that would listen to that kind of record can tell the difference, the bonus would be the people that can't tell the difference (like bdunard who would still enjoy the record (even on mp3 format...).

If you have a producer that is only interested in the money and making quick hit records (Like myself )Then you lift faders on the O2R listen to another Hit record and rip it off and get an ok sound , thats fine too.

The idea is balance and I like both for different reasons . hey why go to an expensive Italian restaurant when you can get the same seemingly spaghetti in a cheaper one ?

One is class and the other is common its an acquired taste.

No one is better then the other and they both need each other so we could tell the difference .

Its all a state of mind my friend, If you are happy with ok sounding records because it does the job then its fine maybe for you its just like a 9-5 and you are happy to stay as you are. If someone else is happy with thriving for perfection then its fine too. one is a pocket issue and one is love issue and we all know how expensive love is . .

Back to spliff

mac

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
I give up, you win.


But please just for fun, please purchase a recent DVD david guilmour has put out. It's a type of accoustic show. don't remember the name but it came out a year or 2 ago. you will find it on amazon. after you listen to that, if you think you can achive THAT in the box, without his use of Astoria and it's goodies. I promise, to shut up and not post again.

[alphajerk]

i dont blame technology, i thank it.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by mac black
LOL .. I was working at the Astoria and When heard the remixed version of Dark side of the moon in surround(it might have been the live gig in earls court...can't quite remember) In the studio I was blown away by the sound .

High end studios are amazing . But they dont give you Hit records and Turn crap songs to good ones.

The difference is in the producer/artist .
If you have a producer that cares for high quality result (like myself ) then it matters and the people that would listen to that kind of record can tell the difference, the bonus would be the people that can't tell the difference (like bdunard who would still enjoy the record (even on mp3 format...).

If you have a producer that is only interested in the money and making quick hit records (Like myself )Then you lift faders on the O2R listen to another Hit record and rip it off and get an ok sound , thats fine too.

The idea is balance and I like both for different reasons . hey why go to an expensive Italian restaurant when you can get the same seemingly spaghetti in a cheaper one ?

One is class and the other is common its an acquired taste.

No one is better then the other and they both need each other so we could tell the difference .

Its all a state of mind my friend, If you are happy with ok sounding records because it does the job then its fine maybe for you its just like a 9-5 and you are happy to stay as you are. If someone else is happy with thriving for perfection then its fine too. one is a pocket issue and one is love issue and we all know how expensive love is . .

Back to spliff

mac

I kind of understand your post but you confused me. You have a quote of mine, yet I don't know who you are talking to. By the way, I never said a big studio will turn crap songs into good ones. I said, a big studio will inspire you to perform better. (songs are usually written in bathrooms and places like that). Now you being a guy who worked at a place I'd love to visit, I am sure you agree with me.. that some of guilmours best sounding records wouldn't be achivied IN THE BOX right ? I was posting stricly about sonics Mac. I would really like to know where you stand in this issue.

[mac black]

I agree !

I shouldn't have quoated you. It was just a general statement not directed at anyone...

I thought it turned into a bit of a home studio big studio kind of talk...

mac

You cannot achieve the same results ITB.

mac

[picksail]

Originally posted by nukmusic
can we? or should we blame the people developing the TECHNOLOGY? Or should we blame the companies and the way they MARKET the TECHNOLOGY? Stewart, maybe a combo of them. Would we be having these topics if stuff like CD/ DVD burners and cheaper, good quality recording gear wasn't upon us????

I really, think that it just comes down to something as simple as 'supply and demand'. I mean, no one's pointing any fingers at Darwin are they?

I personally embrace technology, what is done with it is a something completely different. The developers aren't in it to create art they are in it to move units and they certainly aren't going to retard production/marketing once the wheels are in motion.

The adversity occuring within our industry is absolutely necessary and will require forward thinking individuals to create new paradigms before any change will ever happen. This harkens back to something Frank Zappa once said, 'Progress is not possible without deviation from the norm.'

Remember, it's not computers that kill people.

[bdunard]

Originally posted by mac black

The difference is in the producer/artist .
If you have a producer that cares for high quality result (like myself ) then it matters and the people that would listen to that kind of record can tell the difference, the bonus would be the people that can't tell the difference (like bdunard who would still enjoy the record (even on mp3 format...).

I never said that I can't hear the difference between the formats... so don't put words in my mouth. A great song trumps all. It IS the Ace, regardless of format 24 bit, 16 bit, mp3, etc. Just because I love listening to a song over a great refrence system doesn't mean I have to stop enjoying it when I go for a jog or walk the dog. Would you disagree? I don't feel sorry for the bloated $3.5K a day studios. They are what the are and their equipment is great but they don't turn profits and there is a business side to music. Engineers will always have a job and place in music and so will some studios. But it doesn't take $3.5K a day to make great music and if you think so then you my friend are in trouble. I don't know what I said that offended you enough to give me the . I assume you are passionate about the process of making music and I totally dig that so it is no sweat off my back. I just think it is obvious that the music scene doesn't have enough room for the bloated rock star studios anymore... and nature is taking its course. So engineers rather than bitch learn to adapt...you are not the first that will ever have to do so. Plenty of people lose jobs to downsizing everyday and you know what most of them live and many still thrive. Like a photograph, music will always need someone to caputre it in its best light.

[toolstudio]

Originally posted by jlotto
what i pointed out was there have been countless comparisons made HERE on this forum. For example- A mixed itb, B mixed SSL, C mixed w/ Summing Box, D mixed to 1/2" CHOOSE which is which.

Every single damn test the majority of the experienced engineers here get wrong. Thats not by mistake. They all even have reasons why they pick which one they pick and they still get it wrong.

Now if experienced engineers here cant do it. dont expect consumers to, especially after project goes thru mastering process. If its coming off of the FM radio forget about it.

Hi,

I usualy don't post in that analog/digital ITB/OTB debates, as I have more important things to work on in my room than debating these pretty senseless discussions.

I think you are right when you arguing about the summing. There is a difference when you listen to ITB vs Analog summing, when it comes down to only summing. These difference might be forgettable for the DIY kids or the audience.

When I talk about OTB mixing, I mean mxing from Tape, mixing on a console (in my case SSL) working the console, using the eqs, using the onboard dynamics, working the summing, finding the sweet spot, using tons of the best outboard and mixing to 1/2" or high res digital.

That indeed makes a world difference to working in the Box.

Just my experience working with the best gear every day, AND working with artist/producers.

But as always I could be wrong,.... so...


wolfgang

toolhouse studios, germany

[Trp]

IMO opinion great analog studios and gear still make a difference but it´s become more subtle. And good sounding gear is now affordable to more people.

Which just means: it comes down to the engineer´s ears and skills. Not a bad thing IMO.

Great engineers will stay in business.

[nukmusic]

Originally posted by Trp