Arrogance?

[Cosmonauta]

This is funny.
Just a few years a go, I was involved in a project as musician/arranger... The client was a Brazilian independent artist and also son of the leading Brazilian Bank's owner (so, he have all THE money he wants to spend in his project, more than any record label so to speak).
The client wanted to mix the project in U.S, his preference was the Hit Factory because of a Whitney Houston CD he likes or something like that...
The producer called Hit Factory on the phone to book the mixing sessions... the HF guy first question was: "who's the artist and what was the label..." and the producer answered it's a brazilian independent artist. After that the HF Guy became risp and didn't return any calls anymore... We ended up mixing the project in a brazilian top studio.
Why I'm not surprise they are closing....?

[Jose Mrochek]

have you tried calling other big studios before deciding to do it in brazil ? i really don't think arrogance has much to do with it to tell you the truth. but if that where the case, can you imagine how many independent artists just called to waste their time ? well you happened to be one of those rare independent people that had the money to do it, but you are rare. so well maybe that day the secretary or studio manager thought you were not for real. anyways did the record come out good ?

[Cosmonauta]

Yes, the album come out awesome and it was mixed in this studio: http://www.mosh.com.br (at the VIP room to be more exactly) by an awesome engineer.

Maybe Hit Factory was not taking notice of the industry direction... At least here in Brazil, even top artists are going independent because it's a better business for them.

For me the HF guy attitude was arrogance with a bit of prejudice. He could at least sent an automated e-mail with rates and some pre-payment policies or booking tax. That was enough for the client says: "**** them, I'm not going anywhere to be treated like shit.. forget it, do it here".

Fortunately I had great times in other american studios in the past. Some of them alive and well.

[jlotto]

Honestly I have no allegiance to any big corp studio entity. They charge $2500/day plus and then wanna charge u extra for ProTools system and then u have to pay ur engineer.

U then realize with the $ u spent recording and mixing this album at the big boys u could have built a real decent project studio that would be yours for all future projects. Very hard to climb out from under that recording fund recoupment at that high a daily rate.


With the technological advances it was just a matter of time before they all started falling.

[Jose Mrochek]

the magic created at a big studio is the price you pay for. the beatles on studio A and pinkfloyd in studio B , is the kind of thing that makes magical records dude. If you want to think that because the "audio quality" is good enough, you will be able to make the same record at home than abbey road... ummm I guess you have never been to a big studio.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by Cosmonauta
Yes, the album come out awesome and it was mixed in this studio: http://www.mosh.com.br (at the VIP room to be more exactly) by an awesome engineer.

Maybe Hit Factory was not taking notice of the industry direction... At least here in Brazil, even top artists are going independent because it's a better business for them.

For me the HF guy attitude was arrogance with a bit of prejudice. He could at least sent an automated e-mail with rates and some pre-payment policies or booking tax. That was enough for the client says: "**** them, I'm not going anywhere to be treated like shit.. forget it, do it here".

Fortunately I had great times in other american studios in the past. Some of them alive and well.

very coool room the VIP room!!! if you have those rooms in your country why take your money out. Invest with your own people !!!

[jlotto]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
the magic created at a big studio is the price you pay for. the beatles on studio A and pinkfloyd in studio B , is the kind of thing that makes magical records dude. If you want to think that because the "audio quality" is good enough, you will be able to make the same record at home than abbey road... ummm I guess you have never been to a big studio.

If u need help from ghosts to make a song then there is a problem.

I basically lived at Unique & Hit Factory when i was part of Trackmasters for 4 years.

When 2 of us went our separate ways and got a label deal the first thing we built with our advance was a ProTools project room strictly for recording only on madison in the 30's. Our recordings stepped up in quantity and quality- no watching the clock. Also got to bank "studio time budgets" in addition to our normal fees on outside projects. With the arrival of HD we started mixing more in-house as well instead of trekking over to Sony or Right Track.

If u need to pay $2500/day to play w/ ghosts to help u record thats u. But the industry is obviously not rolling that way and those rooms are falling one by one.

U know what kind of personal room u can build with that type of budget recording an album ($2500/day)? U can make your own ghosts in your own spot and be better financially for it. Unless you sell 5million a release- then u dont need it.

[Lectra]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
the magic created at a big studio is the price you pay for. the beatles on studio A and pinkfloyd in studio B , is the kind of thing that makes magical records dude. ... ummm I guess you have never been to a big studio.

You have got to be kidding me.
The things that make the music magical are the notes, the melody, the arrangement, the musicians, the performance, .....
As a gearslut it's easy to think that the magic happens at those places but in the end the only thing that will survive is the music.

I've been to several 'big studios' the last years and when you have to work with a time schedule 'cause the room is so freaking expensive it can work against you. No matter if the Beatles or Pink Floyd used to record in that place...
I don't care...

Give me John Lennon on an M-box everyday instead of Puddle of Mud in Abbey Road....

[bunnerabb]

Didn't Sir George track the Beatles in B?

:D

[Rail Jon Rogut]

While the "magic" is certainly nice to have (and it's effect unquantifiable).. that's not the only reason why you'd go to a big well designed acoustic space to record.. in my day you also got an assistant who's highly qualified and can hook up any piece of gear you throw at them.. including locking together any DAW, tape transport, video deck, MIDI module, etc. that exists. Someone that knows how all the different DAWs and MIDI modules work and can help you if you have any question about anything in the control room. Someone who's set up the room, microphones and cues.. and aligned the Pro Tools I/O or tape machines before you walk in the room. You're paying to walk into a room where everything is already set up to go and miced.. and works, and if anything should fail they'll have it fixed within 5 minutes by the on-site tech or exchanged immediately so your session goes forward without interruption. You're paying for the microphone collection.. so you can use the M50's for your room, the C12's for your overheads, the u47 for your vocal, etc.... and you have a console with 40 high quality preamps and a rack full of top quality compressors and reverbs.. including probably a real live EMT plate and a live chamber. Heck, in my day at Oceanway the assistant did all the punching (since most engineers didn't know how to use the ATR-124's).

Most producer's or artist's "home studios" don't have high quality gear.. they may have a few good pres, maybe a couple of good compressors, etc... and the tracking room is usually the size of a closet. They may have a few good mics.. but nothing compared to a "real studio". Renting tube mics isn't cheap at $75/day to $150/day each.

Believe me.. I work in rooms like these all the time.. but they're nothing like working in a "real studio". usually there's no assistant and you're doing everything yourself which means you're running around all day instead of being able to share the load -- so you get distracted and tired much faster. By the time you've rented everything you'd get in the "real studio" you're spending more than if you just worked at one... plus you have a support staff. The little rooms often don't have patch bays and you have to spend an hour or two tearing down the last setup and then rewiring everything for your current session -- all this is wasted time and usually the band end up waiting around. Sure you can hire a qualified assistant to help you.. for $20 to $25 an hour.. but often the producer won't want to pay that (because his budget's so tight and he's still trying to make some money himself on the project)... and they've already pressured you to drop your regular engineering rate.. even though you're doing more than twice as much as you should have to.

Sure I get the job done in the "producer's studio"... but it means making qualified sacrifices (because they just don't have enough quality preamps or enough EQ's or compressors)... I'll get a sound which is suitable.. but I know that if I had the right amount of gear (as I would in a "real studio") I'd have nailed it perfectly.. and won't have to worry about working on the EQ or compression "in the mix".

Rail

[Jules]

I DO know someone who had plenty of cash for a session and called up all the big studios here in London, he only wanted a day, not unusual for a string session but he had a terrible time getting called back.. he was fairly shocked, disapointed and came away a bad opinion of big studios...

But the encoraging thing was.....

He was standing in my small studio having just paid for a repeat session when he told me.

[paterno]

Originally posted by bunnerabb
Didn't Sir George track the Beatles in B?

:D

If you want to get semi-technical, it was #2 for the bulk of the Beatles stuff through Sgt. Pepper, with Revolver being the noteable exception -- it was done primarily in #3. Later, #2 was still used for the majority of recording, but there were other places used [Olympic for Hey Jude, for example...]

I know there are people out there with much more in depth knowledge about this, so please don't freak about my generalities here...

John

[Jose Mrochek]

you guys can say all you want. the VIBE of a big studio, just sitting behind a 80ch SSL is fantastic. the sensation of the faders, the hot chick that greets you when you come in, the people walking around is inspiring. i used the beatle/floyd example.. there is magic in those places, I certainly feel it everytime i enter one of these rooms.. I know i know, it can be in my head. but the people ? the talks in the lounge with so and so ? all that vibe , will never ever ever be replaced with a home studio. i guess it doesn't inspire you guys, that is cool.. it sure does me.

[paterno]

Originally posted by Jules
I DO know someone who had plenty of cash for a session and called up all the big studios here in London, he only wanted a day, not unusual for a string session but he had a terrible time getting called back.. he was fairly shocked, disapointed and came away a bad opinion of big studios...

But the encoraging thing was.....

He was standing in my small studio having just paid for a repeat session when he told me.

The Hit Factory is/was kind of notorious for the way it treated clients. I only have experience in Miami after they took over Criteria and have a funny story or two about it -- but its really not worth getting into...

You know, with all the points about big studios being so expensive and a waste of money or whatever, I think you have to realize two things -- it takes money to have the real estate, gear, and staff to make a commercial studio work. And under the right circumstances, it is a very valuable thing to be able to show up to a place and get a lot of work done in a short period of time. Especially when you are dealing with a lot of people and instruments. And having a great staff makes the studio experience exponentially better. It allows you to focus completely on the music and not the other distractions -- so and so needs food, the such and such is broken, there's no parking for the background singers, the freaking phone that keeps ringing, we need copies of the lyrics or the chart, I need this mic or gear hooked up, etc. You don't realise how cool this can be until you experience it first hand...

It costs money to have these things, but if you are smart about how you use your time, you can take advantage of these kinds of places without ruining your record budget. There really is nothing like recording in a great studio. But if you are not organized, be prepared to pay...

John

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by Lectra
You have got to be kidding me.
The things that make the music magical are the notes, the melody, the arrangement, the musicians, the performance, .....
.

ok look. assuming the notes (chord progression) and melody where done in the writers bedroom with a guitar prior to entering the studio to lay down the tracks.

if that where the case you are left with arrangements performed by musicians.

If you think a musician will not be inpired to lay down a better performance in a big studio I think you are very wrong. some musicians just play better by having their girlfriends present. music recording is just the art of being able to capture a great musical expression by an artist who is inspired to give their best perfomance in a certain MOMENT. haven't you noticed that some people lay down things in 10 minutes that could not happen in maybe a week ? It certainly happens to me with my songwriting. I can write 5 songs in a hour, when sometimes I cant write 1 in a month. That my friend is beyond my explanation. These rooms have some sort of magic that enhances your ability to become a better "artist". And well, if people think they can do as good or better recordings at home, then well.. yeah.. the big guys will shut down, and it's very very sad.

[jlotto]

Why do u acquate project studios w/ bedrooms?

were not talking bedrooms in ur parents house and mboxes

Many producers have project spaces w/ good rooms.

Is not a 25k pt hd accel rig, 20k in outboard, 15k in monitoring, 10k in mics, etc. enough to get a good song poppin?

Thats way below what would be in hit factory A or quad C but it is a "real studio". even w/ less of those things.

writing a song by staring at a an unused 80channel ssl at that rate would lock up and block up alot more people than inspire.

but whatever floats ur boat. U will have a hand in keeping them big spots alive because you fall for the flash and glare of the industry, not the substance.

[Rail Jon Rogut]

That budget will get you the bare minimum.. which leads to the exact scenario I described in my post. With a decent tube microphone costing about $2,000 to $4,500 each -- and preamps at $3,000 each -- compressors $1,500 each... you're not going to get much gear for $20,000. Most freelance engineers own more gear than that... it just costs money to have it stored and carted around. To create a small studio which is acoustically treated and has enough gear and a patch bay will cost in excess of $125,000 (without the DAW).

Rail

[Phil Buckle]

Originally posted by Rail Jon Rogut

Sure I get the job done in the "producer's studio"... but it means making qualified sacrifices (because they just don't have enough quality preamps or enough EQ's or compressors)... I'll get a sound which is suitable.. but I know that if I had the right amount of gear (as I would in a "real studio") I'd have nailed it perfectly.. and won't have to worry about working on the EQ or compression "in the mix".

Rail

I agree with a lot of the sentiment in this post.
And another thing.........In regard to artists owning their own studios.......I've seen to many great writers waste years of their time working out how to operate all their new gear. They build their little room and spend all their money on gear. Then they frequent forums like this trying to learn as much as possible. They transfer their creative gift over to the task of becoming a great engineer/producer. Many become good at it but with that gain something is lost.
They are trying to learn someone elses lifetime of experience and end up neglecting their real gift.

Making and recording music is a collaborative thing and that's where a "real studio" can help.

It seems to me that when we talk about "real studios" we are harking back to a time when a group of musicians used the studio as a creative environment. Where the sole purpose of the time spent there was to create music whithin the dynamic and talents of the ensemble. Someone else pushes the buttons and someone else tries to shape what is being recorded into the common ever changing vision.....or more than... in George Martins case.

Project studios may be liberating to some artists but they have been a great energy/creativity drain on many others.
Playing with computers and gear is a dangerous thing for a creative person to do. It can sideline the artistic ambition and hijack it onto another path which seems more important, or at least immediately necessary.
Along with artistic freedom (or the perception of it) comes the added responsibility of being the engineer and often the producer. Both tasks better served by people who have spent their lifetime developing their craft.
I know I've bent the intention of the original post but the traditional "real studio" was always an exciting place to be. You went there to make your music and there were talented and trained people there to bring your vision to fruition.
Most of the albums I enjoy are created by a team of people in "real studios"
I don't think that all of them will go.

[paterno]

Originally posted by jlotto
Why do u acquate project studios w/ bedrooms?

were not talking bedrooms in ur parents house and mboxes

Many producers have project spaces w/ good rooms.

Is not a 25k pt hd accel rig, 20k in outboard, 15k in monitoring, 10k in mics, etc. enough to get a good song poppin?

Thats way below what would be in hit factory A or quad C but it is a "real studio". even w/ less of those things.

writing a song by staring at a an unused 80channel ssl at that rate would lock up and block up alot more people than inspire.

but whatever floats ur boat. U will have a hand in keeping them big spots alive because you fall for the flash and glare of the industry, not the substance.

It really depends on the kinds of records you make and the way you make them. And the way you define a studio. I really like your term actually -- project space or studio. I agree, writing a song using a Ptools rig, 1 or 2 mics, and some other gear to generate sounds in a big SSL room is a waste. And it can be enough to get a song going, no question. But on the other hand, you will not be able to record a rock band all at the same time, or a session with drums, bass, 2 guitars, B3, acoustic piano, 2 lead singers, and 3 background singers all at the same time in a place with a bunch of gear and no iso or big recording space. These are the kinds of things commercial studios are best for. I'd need at least 30 mic pres and a way to combine the mics in the second tracking scenario I just mentioned to really do things the way I'd like to. It's not flash and glare, its simply the best way to get certain kinds of projects done.

And in the end the substance is what comes out of the speakers...

Cheers,
john

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by Phil Buckle
Project studios may be liberating to some artists but they have been a great energy/creativity drain on many others.
Playing with computers and gear is a dangerous thing for a creative person to do. It can sideline the artistic ambition and hijack it onto another path which seems more important, or at least immediately necessary.
Along with artistic freedom (or the perception of it) comes the added responsibility of being the engineer and often the producer. Both tasks better served by people who have spent their lifetime developing their craft.
I know I've bent the intention of the original post but the traditional "real studio" was always an exciting place to be. You went there to make your music and there were talented and trained people there to bring your vision to fruition.
Most of the albums I enjoy are created by a team of people in "real studios"
I don't think that all of them will go.

agree 100%

[Cosmonauta]

Yeah... we have a lot of decent ssl/neve rooms around here
My personal favorites:
http://www.arstudios.com.br/ (in Rio)
http://www.estudiosmega.com.br (both São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro unit)
http://www.midasstudios.com.br/ (in São Paulo)
also "Na Nuvens" (in RIo) which don't have a website (on purpose...).
For mastering, this guy: http://www.classicmaster.com.br/ (in São Paulo).
Talented engineers as well.

I have no doubt the project would rock if mixed in Hit Factory by an american big cat guy.... It's very hard to beat a mix by those guys. This is a fact. But today, to be honest there's no real need to go elsewhere... we can get a decent job done here...

Until the middle of 90s there was a fever of brazilian top artists recording in U.S/England.
But guess what, where are those top artists recording today?
Yes, at their own PT studio, or at producer's studio. And I have to admit, some of them are getting decent sound, great creative albums out of those project studios.

Phil raised good points and I agree with most, but... I confess that I started as a musician... then a musician/arranger.... later musician/arranger/producer... and guess what? YES, I'm more and more working on my own project studio (and upgrade it little by little) instead of the big rooms.
I too prefer to work as a team, but In my personal case I think that my accumulation of functions have something to do with our culture-economy which is reflecting in music industry budgets. But no low-budget will make music stops! At least the one I'm involved and like...

[jlotto]

I got a neighbor out in nj who took built a floor over his 3 car carage and turned the bottom into one big iso. Both floors designed by FM. He has over 50k worth of primo outboard and a shitload of quality mics in addition to his PT HD Accel 7 rig. He has a rotation of engineers as well.

Surely by his hourly and daily rate he would be considered a project studio. By his lack of flash and pizzaz and his locale he is not a "big" studio. But he is by all means a "real studio" and if u couldnt record a song in a place like that you cant record anywhere. He dont have the big ssl to look at while writing but u can churn out some songs in there.

[Jose Mrochek]

great songs have and will be created when you are in a bathroom taking a dump for all I care. that is cool. but to create a album like floyds dark side of the moon, all the experimentation, the contritubitions from people outside the band. the "motown" sound, the people in the neighborhood, people, and more people and more people who just contribute without you even notice goes to a complete stop when you lock yourself up in a producers room. at that moment, it's only you and the producer. who both could have a great vision, and yes good stuff can come up.. but not a sgt. pepper, or darkside of the moon.. those albums have some magic that went beyond the explicable, and I believe some of it had to do with where they were recorded and the live situations that came prior like Bob stated. I mean, do you guys really believe you can create a "dark side of the moon" looking at a computer screen and a mouse ? please..............

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
and yes good stuff can come up.. but not a sgt. pepper, or darkside of the moon.. those albums have some magic that went beyond the explicable, and I believe some of it had to do with where they were recorded and the live situations that came prior like Bob stated. I mean, do you guys really believe you can create a "dark side of the moon" looking at a computer screen and a mouse ? please..............

Last time I was in a "real studio" they were sitting there staring at a computer and a mouse. I don't use either of those tools in my project studio. (sure, there's computers hiding in my Mlink and SLAM! but I don't have to look at them).

I'm not trying to create some kind of surreal production-heavy soundscape with all kinds of ingenious studio tricks- I'm trying to record an actual performance that happens in an actual room. So, 2 great mics, 2 great channels, 2 tracks and a suitable room is all I need. The suitable room has been the hard part! That's what drew me into the studio and it turned out their Bill Putnam designed room (not at Cello) sucked far worse than the room I live in. Guess I went to the wrong place.

But there are plenty of worthwhile things to record other than multitrack manipulation-heavy masterpieces. Personally I'm heartily sick of all that- I like actual performances whenever possible, that took place in an actual place, preferably all at once.

[Jose Mrochek]

I don't know Ted, maybe I am wrong and Just trying to find any possible reason to justify how bad I feel about the big studios closing down.

[jlotto]

Now i'm lost. "people outside the band"?

besides the band members, the producer, the engineer, and the a&r who else are you looking to get "help" from making a song?

the computer screen and the mouse are just tools to making songs. they are invisible in the song making process. If computers and mouses were out back then in the motown era they would have used them too.

Not once did u mention talent, skills, one's own ability to experiment.

Hendrix recording at electric lady 30 years ago is not gonna help anyone recording there today make a hit. Before hendrix created the mystic of electric lady (his own project studio i might add), it was just an empty space. every artist can create their own mystic in any empty space and not rely on periphial trinkets to get the job done. It's about the performance.

I do understand where u are coming from, so dont think i dont. Ive recorded in just about every major facility in ny and la and a few in between and do like the surroundings, but this is the record making business and times are changing. Unless u are seriously selling units ur budget cant hold $2500/day rooms anymore.

[Jose Mrochek]

you are starting to convince me and that is fine. You have obviously had more experience than me for what you say. I only worked at one of these places. And I certainly felt a very very cool vibe with all the people. I still go there today from time to time, and it's a very cool enviroment. To me those enviroments are inspiring. If ok, like you conviced me maybe wont make or break a record,but my favorite records where made in those enviroments. All of my life I had this idea that abbey road had something between those walls. Haven't you ever been to a place where just something in the air was weird and not common ? I believe some of these places have that. That is all dude, really.. if you can reproduce that vibe which you sure have for all you say, I sincerely congratulate you.

[Ted Nightshade]

That Jimi recorded wherever and whenever he did helps me record today, wherever and whenever I do. I might not be recording anything or performing anything either, if he hadn't. He had a vision, and it included Electric Lady. I've never been there, and I don't know how true the place remains to his vision- I do know that his vision included a Jimi Hendrix to create in the place. We're way worse off losing a Jimi than losing his dream studio.

I think it's a damn shame the whole music industry has gone the way it has for the past 50 years. Damn shame these rooms are closing, damn shame they've been churning out the stuff they have, anytime recently. I'm not at all pleased with any of it.

I think it quite possible that all of the great spaces, knowledge, perspective, and too many of the great people we've lost, we've lost because we just didn't deserve them. If we had taken good care of them and used them responsibly, we might well still have them. And that does include Jimi. He was so much fodder for the big industrial machine that music was so rapidly becoming.

[Cosmonauta]

We are entering in the psychologic area... and you know how personal psychologic influences are... my english limitations blocks me to go further in this subject. I just would say, in contrast of the vibe you feel in this big studio.... Most people I know work more comfortable and relaxed (resulting in better performance) in the home-project-studio einvoiriment... and some of them feel panic inside a big studio working against time and money spend.

[Jose Mrochek]

it's all psychological cosmonauta. I always referred to the psycological aspects, as a matter of fact, I have been very pissed psychologically since these new forum closure studios thing appeared. I was definetly expecting more from the fellow gearslutz, it saddens the shit out of me to that even we as a community don't give a fu#k about these closings, and we celebrate them because we can do the same at home. I'm speachless to tell you the truth, and I'm beginning to think like Ted said that we deserve what is happening.