Are producer owned studios the way forward?

[Jules]

If big producers are busy, why dont they build their own facilities?

They dont have to be crappy...

[Sobe]

He did

http://www.neilsonclyne.com/genelec/...tavo_Celis.JPG

[Jules]

ICON + tracking rooms + control room + lounge

= All a producer needs?

[natpub]

Originally posted by Jules
ICON + tracking rooms + control room + lounge

= All a producer needs?

for demo's or sountracks, sure...for college trainees for post and video, sure....

For bands, I don't think so.

Not to say a full ICON system isn't a great thing, just not what I would select to make records. I know others are making full out, chart topping records with ICON right now. More power to them!

The results still have that digi-edge to them that cuts both ways. We shall see how long the listeners find that entertaining, or worthy of purchase.

That said, all digital (& onboard) is getting better and better--kinda scary--thank god for microphones---they may end up as our last analog hold out

[xaos]

Natpub, that is the best avatar ever! Don't fear the reaper. Funniest bit I have ever seen.

[TonyBelmont]

In the last 3 years, I have put together more private producer/ artist studios as opposed to commercial studios 4 to 1.... It's definitely the way the future studio model will be. Big producer has private studio, charges label for production costs as well as studio costs, and makes all the money!! It's all that will keep the console industry alive.

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by TonyBelmont
Big producer has private studio, charges label for production costs as well as studio costs, and makes all the money!! It's all that will keep the console industry alive.

Band doesn't sell.

Label loses money.

Label spends less money NEXT time.

There's less money in the pot for all the producer-studio's.

And we see the next lot of said producer-studio owners' gear up on eBay.

Can we PLEASE stop blaming MP3's on the decline of the music/recording/whatever industry and start looking at the reality?

Can producer-owned studio's exist? Yes. And they should.

But they should exist to create value for money by creating a more valuable product not so the F***in' producer can double-dip.

Everybody blames the kid in his bedroom that's trying to figure out how to use some software on his home computer. Why don't we start blaming producers that don't know how to engineer or engineers that don't know how to produce?

At least, hopefully, the kid MIGHT come up with something new, different and, god forbid, even ORIGINAL through his journey of discovery which is much more than can be said for some (and I say SOME, certainly not ALL) producer/engineer's trying cut someone out of the food chain so they can line their own pockets.

Personally I don't give a half a S*** about keeping the big console industry alive.

I care about music and it's ability to keep US alive, both financially and spiritually.

R.

[Steffmo]

In most ways I think yes.

I would go one step further and say that most producers should plan to also be labels to some extent.

If you chose carefully, you can often pay yourself for doing arecord by selling maybe 2000 CDs ....some direct through the band, some through a mid level distro deal.

I also feel very strongly that there needs to be a new class of studio which combines the care and service of the okd kine studios, but is perhaps more set up for pure tracking.

Perhaps these rooms might be well equipped with the popular boutique boxes, or a great sounding tracking console like the Trident.

I guess my point is, you don't have to have a J Series SSL to do the other stuff right. And a smart artist or producer should know that you can print quality audio to whatever medium and retain the right to mix in whatever form you want.

My first upper end studio was located in Ace Frehleys old house....had a great studio blasted out of the rock underneath the house. Had history, ambiance, vibe. And we understood the service thing.

We had an Allen and Heath Sigma console...sounded very good...and lots of boxes. But we could do it with food and accomodations for 1200.00 a day. No one complained...and there were some BIG names.

Acts would spend three months doing vocals and overdubs...we were booked contantly.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by Jules
If big producers are busy, why dont they build their own facilities?

They dont have to be crappy...

Many aren't, and it isn't the future, it's the now. Few serious producers don't have good studios of their own now...

[mixer]

i love going into a studio and cutting..i put a home room just to do edits and some pre mix processing. but with budgets the way they are i find myself recording and mixing almost all the time at home. i do miss large budget projects but they seem to be dissapearing....and so is my ability to charge for my services and studio time...
Gary M.Vandy Audio Prod

[TonyBelmont]

Originally posted by Ol' Betsey
Band doesn't sell.

Label loses money.

Label spends less money NEXT time.

There's less money in the pot for all the producer-studio's.

And we see the next lot of said producer-studio owners' gear up on eBay.

Can we PLEASE stop blaming MP3's on the decline of the music/recording/whatever industry and start looking at the reality?

Can producer-owned studio's exist? Yes. And they should.

But they should exist to create value for money by creating a more valuable product not so the F***in' producer can double-dip.

Everybody blames the kid in his bedroom that's trying to figure out how to use some software on his home computer. Why don't we start blaming producers that don't know how to engineer or engineers that don't know how to produce?

At least, hopefully, the kid MIGHT come up with something new, different and, god forbid, even ORIGINAL through his journey of discovery which is much more than can be said for some (and I say SOME, certainly not ALL) producer/engineer's trying cut someone out of the food chain so they can line their own pockets.

Personally I don't give a half a S*** about keeping the big console industry alive.

I care about music and it's ability to keep US alive, both financially and spiritually.

R.

You kind of jumped around a little bit.. But, let me ask you a question... who do you think will be building the studios for records to be made at now and in the future?

There are very few people opening new studios. Major studios are closing at an alarming rate.. Where are people going to record? The only way the music industry can survive is for artists and producers to put together studios for their own use. Unless the record labels decide to do it..... which isn't something that they seem interested in.

[grahluk]

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood
Many aren't, and it isn't the future, it's the now. Few serious producers don't have good studios of their own now...

Well that's the real problem of the crappy state of music isn't it? Not MP3's, not file sharing, not even greedy grubby bloated labels. It's artists and producers having their own studios. I'm not making sense? Let me explain. It was all clearly laid out by Mr. Howard Stern. One time he has Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters in the studio on air. They go over the usual band/tour/girls banter. Dave then does some very good live acoustic versions of his songs. When asked about his next record Dave replies that they just built a studio in his house. He explains all the reasons why one would want a studio of their own which we all here know. Howard Stern then groans. "Don't do man." He then makes a convincing arguement about how the first sign of an artist completely sucking is when they have the werewithall to have their own studio. Many examples. Think of all the artists music that actually got better after they got their own studios. Of course this is heresy on this forum but it does have some ring of truth. You can also add to this maxim the ones where an artist starts writing their own material, producing their own albums or the truly fatal is when a band or artist moves to LA that isn't originally from there after a modicum of success. They end up just hanging out at parties with John Stamos and Billy Idol.

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by TonyBelmont
You kind of jumped around a little bit..

Yeah, I suppose I did...

But there's probably four or five different responses to various other GS threads...

Big studios are dying because:

a. MP3
b. Producers having their own studios
c. people (non-producer/engineers) doing more work at home themselves
d. shrinking budgets
e. etc. etc. etc.

Firstly, and for the record, I think Producer studios are great. And yes, I think they are the way forward. Why? Because hopefully, in an ideal world, better sounding records can get made for less money.

I mean, if a band can't afford $1000-$2000 a day studio time on top of the producers $5,000 (or higher) per track maybe they CAN afford just $5,000 per track when recorded in said producers studio?

But it was finally kicked off by your remark about producers taking more of cut by charging for productions AND studio time.

It sounded so friggin' greedy. (And it ALMOST sounded like you said it with a smile.)

Why don't they accept that they might have to do more work for less money in order for the industry, and their jobs, to survive?

And before everyone gets their panties into a twist, I'm not talking about selling yourselves short. I'm talking about realising what the market can afford and building a new, viable model around that.

Something that can help the industry not only survive but grow.

Anyway, this whole "big studios dying' thing has really opened up a can of worms and it's gonna a take more than a few fish screaming MP3/Producer Studio/Behringer/ADAT to gobble em' all up.

See, there I go again...

R.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Ol' Betsey:
But it was finally kicked off by your remark about producers taking more of cut by charging for productions AND studio time.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

You build a studio, you own it. You get to charge for its use.

Shouldn't matter if you also happen to be a producer. (??!!!)

A generous bloke might choose to "throw in" the studio costs, sure, but it's not a legal and/or ethical requirement. Certainly none of the entertainment lawyers who've recieved my production contracts ever objected to it. In fact I've never even heard that issue raised until now.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by grahluk
Well that's the real problem of the crappy state of music isn't it? Not MP3's, not file sharing, not even greedy grubby bloated labels. It's artists and producers having their own studios.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Buddies of mine who have left the established studios and built their own amazing rooms (sometimes better than the high end studios they hired out before) are doing the same if not better work as they can settle in and have the rooms built to work best for their needs...

In some cases, sure, producers are settling for cutting records in untreated dens, but the guys I'm talking about have done it right.

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

You build a studio, you own it. You get to charge for its use.

Shouldn't matter if you also happen to be a producer. (??!!!)

A generous bloke might choose to "throw in" the studio costs, sure, but it's not a legal and/or ethical requirement. Certainly none of the entertainment lawyers who've recieved my production contracts ever objected to it. In fact I've never even heard that issue raised until now.

Man, you are so obviously missing my point I don't even feel the need to respond...

But I will.

Who cares what you or your artists lawyers think? Besides you, of course?

We all know that VERY RARELY do lawyers work in the interest of the artists anyway. I mean why would they? Chances are the band is going to get dropped before their second record anyway and so it's best to keep the bankable account on your side.

Then again, maybe they don't say anything because it's common practice for a producer (if he's worth anything) to only have to recoup HIS advance before making royalties. And any half smart person in your sitaution would split the recording and production costs so they don't lose out when the album stiffs.

On another note: Just becasue the the lawyers and the artist don't saying anything about how your producer advance is recouped and studio costs and/or cross-collateralised doesn't mean it's right.

Look, I'm not trying to attack anyone here or make anyone feel guilty but I am hoping that SOME of the people opening producer-led studio's are doing it because they realise the industry is changing and if they want to continue making albums they have to adapt and one way is by making professional sounding recordings more economically.

And NOT just opening them because they think they can make more money.

I think I'm probably OK here though, judging by the number of people that will miss these big old lovely spaces and not just see it as an opportunity to charge their clients more money by opening their own rooms.

One more time: producer-owned studio's are good.

R.

[Jose Mrochek]

I agree with you olbetsy, if the producers dont have the heart to cut those costs, they probably don't believe in what they are producing, if they produce crap they don't believe in, well.. the result is where we are now. If the producers or writers don't make the change ? who will ??

[Henchman]

deleted

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Henchman:
A digi001 in a bedroom is not a studio.

Henchie,

Cello is not a studio.

Oh, and Hit Factory is not a studio.

So long as you've distinguished yourself as my #1 Troll Of The Year, perhaps you could define for all of us what constitutes a studio??

I'm still in business, and Cello and Hit Factory are not.

C'mon, beotch, skool me.

Anyhoo...

[Henchman]

deleted

[Henchman]

BTW, this is my studio, wheres a picture of yours:

[I Lurk]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant

I'm still in business, and Cello and Hit Factory are not.

Wow,

I had no idea you were for real Curve Dominant

I'm impressed,

sincerely

[amanitas]

IMHO, the problems in the music industry have nothing to do with piracy, digital technology, home studios or anything of that sort. It starts and ends with the 'star machine' - loosely defined as all of the cash that labels spend trying to promote their product. Good product sells itself, and sells merch., tickets, cars and everything else on television.

Example 1: The Postal Service. Anybody could listen to this album and tell you it was going to make money. I heard about it through word of mouth, not because there were commercials being jammed down my throat and they were on the cover of every magazine. Lo and behold, not only is the album sold out at most stores I go to, but their music is being used all over the place on TV etc. Most of my mostly music illiterate friends know who Jimmy Tamborello is, just because they read the liner notes.

Example 2: Ashley Simpson. Anybody could have heard her sing and realized she hasn't got a modicum of talent, and is famous precisely for being Jessica Simpson's sister. And as long as this industry values publicity (which she already had a head start on) over talent, you will continue to see debacles like her halftime show at the Orange Bowl. People will forgive you for lyp synching (if you are super attractive and dance well). But they won't forgive you if you suck.

Sure, she had a big hit with "Pieces of Me" - but tell me who wouldn't have hit big with that song? It was extremely well written, extremely well produced, and mixed to perfection. After the SNL fiasco and the aforementioned Orange Bowl failure, I'll bet whoever is responsible for greenlighting her on that song regrets it sincerely, as someone like Britney or even Jessica could have gotten a lot more mileage out of it.

And to top it all off, immediately after both of those events, I saw her on the cover of practically every magazine at the checkout stand in the grocery store. That kind of publicity costs a lot of cash. Can anybody say "money pit"?

To me, these two groups pretty much represent the opposite ends of the spectrum. The Postal Service have become media darlings. Ashley has one foot in the grave, career wise.

Moral of the story: as long as major labels (or whomever is in charge of the big paycheck in the sky) continue to value celebrity over talent, they will continue to lose money, alienate fans, and generally proceed down the path towards financial ruin.

The sad thing is that there is a glut of good music out there. Due to the rise of home/producer studios (which is only a bad thing if you already work in the recording/studio industry), there are a lot more bands that can make a record. Does that mean you have a lot more bad music? Of course. But you also have a lot more good music.

Think about it - if the label that put all of those resources into Ashley's album divided those resources up around 10 bands, you'd have 2 things:

a) A larger margin for error, as any one of those acts failing to sell records would result in a fraction of the loss.

b) You'd be able to tell which bands were succeeding and which weren't, and then focus more resources on the ones that actually have a chance of going platinum.

Even if the end result is that you have 3 artists go platinum instead of one artist going platinum 3 times, it's still a better scenario for the label. 3 platinum artists on your roster instead of one means you can sell a lot more of everything else related to the label/production entity/whatever you want to call it. More merch, more publicity, more sampler CDs, more greatest hits albums, better cross promotion, etc. etc. etc.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by amanitas
...as long as major labels (or whomever is in charge of the big paycheck in the sky) continue to value celebrity over talent, they will continue to lose money, alienate fans, and generally proceed down the path towards financial ruin.

The facts of life are that labels and promoters of all sizes can only make money on celebrity. This has always been the case. It has also been the case that the cost of creating international celebrity almost always exceeds the potential profits from recordings alone. This is why TV stars could always get deals.

Our problem is that most people can no longer afford to play in the minor leagues where one used to be able to earn enough celebrity from musical ability to attract investment. In many regions there simply are no more musical minor leagues where one can build a following.

The major labels can't fix this but WE can!

[Meriphew]

Not only are producers building their own studios, but bands are doing the same and using their own places to make their records.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant
Henchie,

Cello is not a studio.

Oh, and Hit Factory is not a studio.

So long as you've distinguished yourself as my #1 Troll Of The Year, perhaps you could define for all of us what constitutes a studio??

I'm still in business, and Cello and Hit Factory are not.

C'mon, beotch, skool me.

Anyhoo...

If you have something "personal" with Henchman, that is cool but this attitude of yours is kind of offensive to everyone. You somewhat are implying that YOU did something right , and the BIG studios did something wrong ? Are you serious or just adding fuel to the fire ?

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Henchman:
You proved your arrogance and "know-it all" attitude a couple of years ago when I warned you to get 50% upfront for that movie you were working on. I smelled a rat from the minute you described the situation. Because if they don't have 50% upfront,they won't have 100% at the end.

You ignored the advice, and got screwed.

This is an utter lie. Nothing of this sort actually happened. I've gotten 50% up front from every single soundtrack client I've ever done work for, without exception. Wow, Henchie, this is a new low for you.

Not every project in this business turns out perfectly. Any mature professional realizes this. For Henchie to take one isolated account from over two years ago and drag it into this discussion today, is a supreme demonstration of his mental, emotional and professional immaturity. But we knew that already, especially since you just had a project go south on YOU recently, didn't you Henchie??

Henchie, you need medication. You've got bipolar disorder written all over you.

I must be doing something right if I piss off the right people. That says everything to me, so, thanks!

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant

Henchie, you need medication. You've got bipolar disorder written all over you.

I must be doing something right if I piss off the right people. That says everything to me, so, thanks!

You appreciate pissing off people that suffer from mental disabilities?

Dude, that's uncool...

Go bake a cake or something

R.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Ol' Betsey:
You appreciate pissing off people that suffer fro