Are producer owned studios the way forward?

[TonyBelmont]

@ Hench, Curve, and Betsey...

Can we all put our d!cks away and get back to the topic of "producer owned studios being the way forward"??? I can't see what any of these arguments have anything to do with this topic....

[oudplayer]

Precisely...

[adzski]

Originally posted by amanitas
IMHO, the problems in the music industry have nothing to do with piracy,

IMHO they have EVERYTHING to do with piracy.

best,
Adam

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by TonyBelmont
@ Hench, Curve, and Betsey...

Can we all put our d!cks away and get back to the topic of "producer owned studios being the way forward"???

Excuse me?

My trouseres are firmly buttoned and MY TONGUE firmly with in my cheek regarding previous comments...

But can YOU please contribute something something that doesn't relate to your pimpdom?

Is this they way forward or is it just a way to keep YOU in business?

R.

[Steffmo]

Nice to see a real family atmosphere in here!!!

Personally...I think regarding the issue of Studio fees/producer fees you guys are looking at this backwards.

You should charge for the studio time, and spec the producers fees. It makes much more sense to look at it this way because 1) it makes a statement that you as producer have faith in the act. 2) It establishes your authority as producer to keep some level of control, if needed, and 3) You reserve the production points for yourself or your company and get paid from record one, as you did not take a producer advance.

That's assuming you want to do these kind of deals at all. Personally I like them because by looking at the deal in this way 1) I get paid as if it were an off the street session, 2) I retain an interest if it should hit and 3) credits are accumulated.

These are good things.

[I Lurk]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant


I'm still in business, and Cello and Hit Factory are not.

[i]

I must be doing something right if I piss off the right people. That says everything to me, so, thanks! [/b]

amazing

truly amasing

[Henchman]

**** it.

Having gotten a bit too emotional about the current state op the industry in the last liitle while, I have let things get out of control, and would like to apologize to anyuone I may have offended in the last few days.
Including Curve.

I sincerely apologize.
You'll see some deleted posts from me.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by Henchman

You'll see some deleted posts from me.

how are we going to see them if you delete them


Yeah, this new big studio closure section has gotten me very pissed these last days. All this reality check posts of what is happening really brought me down to

[paterno]

Originally posted by Ol' Betsey

Firstly, and for the record, I think Producer studios are great. And yes, I think they are the way forward. Why? Because hopefully, in an ideal world, better sounding records can get made for less money.

I mean, if a band can't afford $1000-$2000 a day studio time on top of the producers $5,000 (or higher) per track maybe they CAN afford just $5,000 per track when recorded in said producers studio?

But it was finally kicked off by your remark about producers taking more of cut by charging for productions AND studio time.

It sounded so friggin' greedy. (And it ALMOST sounded like you said it with a smile.)

Why don't they accept that they might have to do more work for less money in order for the industry, and their jobs, to survive?

Having your own 'studio' [I use this term loosely because in some applications its just a room in an office building with gear piled up] demands a lot more resources, financial and mental, than if you were soley concentrating on just producing. Why not be compensated financially for it? The electricity is being used,someone is calling another country on your phone, the gear is being put through it's paces and will eventually need some kind repair/upgrading, you KNOW your computer will need some kind of upgrade/drives/plugin/RAM, you may need some kind of assitant or runner to deal with some things. All that should come out of the production budget as well?

There has to be some kind of balance here. If you are working in your place, your 'place' should be compensated in some way. It doesn't have to be a crazy fee, but there should be something for the use of the place and people needed to make it all work. Most likely you are already making less money, and on top of that you have to eat the day to day costs as well? How long will you be able to make the 'quality' records you talk about in a timely manner? 'Cause that's what it comes down to here -- high quality in a decent amount of time.

Record company people are onto this already -- the idea of finding producers who have their own rooms so they can get the records done even cheaper. They really aren't concerned with the quality issue. They want to pay your production fee and have you 'throw in' the studio. I almost didn't get a production gig last year because of it -- the record company guy tried to talk the band out of using me because I didn't have my own 'studio'. The record needed to be made a certain way, and even if i had my own space i would have insisted on using a 'real studio' simply because it was obviously the right thing to do for the project. I ended up doing some overdubs and mixing it at home anyway...

just my 2 cents...

John

[Ol' Betsey]

OK, look.

The whole thing that kicked me off down this path was TB's comment about selling gear to 'producers' so they can 'double-dip'. And then his reference to keeping the 'large console' business alive (Alluding to another aspect of the audio sales/support industry).

But he didn't actually answer the topics question.

I don't care if that's what producers ARE doing, I wonder if it's a good thing.

And yes, generally speaking, if said producer creates a space that he honestly knows can produce results that at least equal, if not exceed, what he could achive in a big dollar studio, then I do think it's a good thing.

But with EVERYBODY bitching and complaining about the fact that there's no more money industry, we need to tighten our belts. ALL OF US.

John, your right, the record companies just want things to get cheaper and cheaper. Why? Because sales are down. But that's only ONE reason. They also want things cheaper because they KNOW they can get them cheaper.

I mean, how many labels are going to complain if they think they can give little Billy Bob $2000 extra dollars so he can do all his vocals and guitars in his bedroom and then give the recordings to BMG (Big Mix Guy) who makes it sound ALMOST like it was all done for top dollar?

That's the reality.

THAT'S where most of the big guys (studios and engineers and producers) are losing out.

And how is that going to change? By making the financial trade-off of ALMOST top-dollar-sounding and TOP DOLLAR SOUNDING too negligable to matter.

And how can we do that? By REAL producers having their own equipment.

It IS the way forward.

But not if greedy producers think that they'll be able to get the same amount of money just because they have a 251, 1073, some Apogee's and a computer at home.

I'm telling you, the corporate bean counters ain't going to let it happen. It's their job to save money and they'll be damned if a record sounds good or not.

They see:
Hit Factory - 10 days vocals - $20,000 (all inc. just for chuckles. I'm KNOW there's deals going on left, right and center but...)
Billy Bob - Pro Tools/Focusrite Platinum Voice Channel/Rode 'Vocal' Condenser (I mean even though, as we all know, the mBox actually HAS the 'really great' Focusrite pre's we still need something 'more PRO' right?) - $2,000

And then there's you...

Where do we fit in? Somewhere inbetween and you can pretty much gaurantee it's gonna have to be much closer to Billy Bob than previously thought comfortable.

OK, I gotta go...

Gonna go see 'Racing Stripes' (a film about a zebra that wants to be a race horse...) with my daughter now and she doesn't want to miss it.

And who can blame her?

As long as Girls Alound are on Top Of The Pops she's happy.

Come to think of it, I wonder where THEY did the vocals for those songs?



Take it easy...

R.

[mixer]

i think it is a matter of re-thinking the business model..i have had a very large successful studio in miami for many years now i am an independent and produce mostly out of my house..to me the money to be made in a big commercial room is in the recording of large sessions.(strings horns large rythem sections)which most home studios are just not equiped to do. also some mixing . but the day of doing complete projects and charging outrageous prices are over..most of us will have to make it on experience and knowledge and talent not equipment. there really aren't enough project to go around ...and the people who really know how to record and mix will somehow survive..at least i hope so.

[scott petito]

Mixer definitely is right about the business model changing.. I have 20+ years as a producer/engineer/musician...i guess in many ways I was one of the guys who pioneered the whole project studio thing(althought it was still 24trk analog and a pretty hefty investment in 1984)...today I really see projects much more fragmented , we do the vocals or I'll mix the stuff cut at home or in 12 different studios or just be hired to play on the project...in some ways I love the diversity but I also miss the cohesiveness of a project thats starts and ends in one place ...I also have very few relationships with small indie labels these days.. they fueled the mid level market for many years....now for the most part they just want the artist to make as cheap a record as possible and deliver it on time..."you can do it on an mbox for $2000 in your moms den... sounds good" ...well the best thing about that is it makes my records sound better without buying a thing!

cheers and goodluck to all of us

SP

[Bob Olhsson]

Most labels today really want to deal in finished products. That way they can run their demographic tests to see if they'll be able to get it on the air and cut their losses by dumping any artists that don't pass.

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
Most labels today really want to deal in finished products. That way they can run their demographic tests to see if they'll be able to get it on the air and cut their losses by dumping any artists that don't pass.

I remember the first time I actually understood the concept of a label dropping a band after the album was finished but BEFORE it was released.

It seriously broke my heart... I mean, did they REALLY do this?

The idea that they could let a group of kids go into the studio, record something they'd most probably spent 10 years writing, rewriting, arguing about, rewriting again, gigging etc. etc. and then drop them because they wanted to cut their losses (as we all know, nowadays marketing can FAR exceed advances and recording costs) just plain broke my heart.

It still leaves me dismayed every time I hear about a band 'left on the shelf' but you soon realise it's just part of the ugly game.

R.

[mwagener]

Well, as a producer/engineer first and now producer/engineer/studio owner, I look at this from the “other” side.

There was a time when budgets for an album project were $200,000 to $500,000 and up. With that budget you
- went into rehearsal,
- preproduction,
- rented a good studio in a location that was positive for the project
- paid for travel/hotel for the band/producer/engineer/assistant, equipment transport
- Per Diems/pay for roadies, guitar/drum techs
- recorded/mixed for a couple of month or until it felt right
- mastering (including travel/hotel for the producer to go there and make sure the guy wouldn’t compress too much)
and mostly had some money left over to get the band dressed up and equipped for a tour, hire a few professional people to help them on their way to become rockstars and make tons of money for the label.

Problem:
A&R guys changed from being ex musicians to accountants, budgets got cut and labels realized that instead of spending $300,000 on one band with ten songs, they could spend $30,000 each on ten bands with 100 songs. The odds seemed to be in the labels favor. At the same time high end(-ish) and affordable recording equipment showed up on the market, and the first people to get cut out of the process were the producers and engineers. Everybody could now produce and engineer their own album (why should we pay those guys?). Labels even enforced the idea for a band to, (and I quote): “just buy some ADATS and move into a garage” to get that oh-so-popular “raw” sound.

I make my money by producing/engineering/mixing records and I need a certain amount of time to do that. For that time I charged a recoupable “producer’s advance” which covered my bills and cost of living. With the “new budgets” I would have to rent a studio and do a complete project within two weeks (at $1,500/day for a decent room), and that would mean I’m spending the whole budget just on studio time, no help from roadies, drum tuners, no travel, pick the closest studio for everybody and go, no equipment/instrument rentals, cheap mastering. And no pay for me until the record sells and the initial cost (sometimes including the $$$ cost for videos) had been recouped, which could be two years later. With that system I would be dead by now or asking: “do you want fries with that?”.

Solution:
Get your own studio! Yes, it is a big investment at first and it will take a few years to pay off the gear, but you can take your time recording and mixing and deliver a good product. You are working in a familiar environment (which can be a blessing or a curse) and you can offer “Blockrates” to the label. They like having a set number of $$ to work with in their budget, if you go over, it’s on you. But YOU CAN DELIVER A BETTER PRODUCT which might actually sell, and still make some money after your gear is paid off. I haven’t charged a producers advance in years, people don’t even know what that is anymore. But I do get paid for the studio time (no spec deals!!!), which is better anyway, because I don’t have to recoup it. Am I stepping on the income of large studios? Yes I am, but my ass is closer to me than my shirt and I have to make a living. I had to adjust to what the market offers, and so do the big studios. Unfortunately it’s not as easy for them with all that overhead. And in essence I am now a “big studio” owner myself, even if it’s not as “plush”. But people hire me as a producer/engineer, not as a studio owner. That’s why I can make my own decisions about which equipment to use, and don’t have to have the latest million $$$ console or the “Industry Standard” DAW, as long as I can produce good results.

And it looks to me like the theory of having better odds by spending less per band is backfiring like an old Pinto. Yes, on paper the odds are better, but by releasing records into the market with maximum one (or no) good songs, the crap to gold ratio points quite a bit more to the crap side and THE KIDS WON’T BUY IT!!! especially since they can download it for free anyway. IMO that is where the problem lies, release good material (Evanescense etc.) and the kids will buy it, even if they could download it for free.

Bottom line:
If, as a producer/engineer, I want to put out good records in the current market, owning a studio is the first step.
Welcome to WireWorld

[Jose Mrochek]

Michael, your post makes perfect sense. But don't forget you are in celebrity status. And people know you because of your work at the big studios with the big bands. In the case that big studio complexes where to close, and people start isolating themselves in their rooms. The intern, assistant , engineer "climb your way up" will stop. Everyone will be engineering directly, which is ok... and you can be a good engineer/producer in a few years, but the networking that occurs at these big studio complexes will be automatically canceled . I find it impossible for average Joe that isolates himself in a home studio, tu reach the level of excellence you have reached in your mixes/produccions without going through t the process of the "big studio" big budget production stage first. Just a thought

[mwagener]

Originally posted by Jose Mrochek
Michael, your post makes perfect sense. But don't forget you are in celebrity status. And people know you because of your work at the big studios with the big bands.

Jose, It wasn’t always that way. I started out in my own studio, had the equipment, no clients and a ton of time to experiment and read manuals. I invited the band from the rehearsal room next door to come in and record so I could learn how to do it.

In the case that big studio complexes where to close, and people start isolating themselves in their rooms. The intern, assistant , engineer "climb your way up" will stop.

I have to disagree. I have an intern now at my “project studio” and I’m sure he is learning a lot more than anybody just making coffee and cleaning the toilet in a “big studio complex”. I feel that you learn more by “doing”, I did. I never assisted in a “big studio”, jumped right into the hot water by running my own. In fact, I feel like I’m still in the hot water with every project I do. Ryu (my assistant) is now out recording bands himself on his ProTools rig, we just talked today and he mentioned that it’s a whole different story if you are actually responsible for what you’re doing, but he is doing it and learning.

Everyone will be engineering directly, which is ok... and you can be a good engineer/producer in a few years, but the networking that occurs at these big studio complexes will be automatically canceled.

I think you over value the “networking/climbing your way up” situation. The success stories where the assistant took over because the “real” engineer got sick are rare.

I find it impossible for average Joe that isolates himself in a home studio, to reach the level of excellence you have reached in your mixes/productions without going through t the process of the "big studio" big budget production stage first.

Well, I didn’t start out at the big studio/big productions stage, it took me many years to get there and I was really lucky to be in the right spot at the right time. Again I think you learn more by doing and making mistakes. You should never isolate yourself, go and hang with other engineers/producers, read books, go to forums like this one. I would have loved to have access to all this info at a push of a button, but maybe it was better that I didn’t and made mistakes and learned from them.

The most important thing to realize is, that it takes time to learn this, it’s not going to happen in a week, a month or even in a few years, it’s a 24/7/356 job and there is no instant gratification, in fact it will take forever until you get paid. Long, hard hours of work and don’t even think of having a relationship during that time…

Just a thought

[Shan]

Originally posted by mwagener
The most important thing to realize is, that it takes time to learn this, it’s not going to happen in a week, a month or even in a few years, it’s a 24/7/356 job and there is no instant gratification, in fact it will take forever until you get paid. Long, hard hours of work and don’t even think of having a relationship during that time…

Thank you Michael!!! I myself am doing the very thing that Michael has done already. Every night I pull out that futon on the studio floor and that is where I sleep. I fall asleep looking thru the glass into the control room. Sometimes I wonder "what the hell am I doing?" But I have been making progress. Small steps, but progress nonetheless. No home, car or relationship(Hey baby, come to my place and we'll watch a DVD on the laptop in the control room. NOT) 24/7/365 of long hard ours of work.

And Michael, I have even started saving to go to one of your workshops in the Fall because I want to be the absolute best in my area and continue developing my skills.

Thank you, thank you Michael!!! You just gave me a huge boost. I dont feel so alone on this road anymore.(though I'm a few million miles behind someone like Michael and others here)

Take Wagners' last 2 posts, hit Ctrl+P(or the equivalent on the Mac), Hang them on your wall, and read them once a day.

Well, time for bed(in the studio) nite, nite, my fellow Gearlutz.

Shane

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by mwagener
IMO that is where the problem lies, release good material (Evanescense etc.) and the kids will buy it, even if they could download it for free.

Eek, gad!

OK, OK, I know we all have different tastes and to each his own...

Great post M. and right on the money.

Question about recoupment: You mentioned not having to recoup studio costs?

Are your deals based on 'studio+producer' where it's agreed that all money is directed towards the studio costs (therefore unrecoupable out of producers royalties) and then your producer 'points' are calculated from album 'one'?

Again, great post! Cheers.

R.

[mwagener]

Originally posted by Ol' Betsey
Eek, gad!

OK, OK, I know we all have different tastes and to each his own...

Great post M. and right on the money.

Question about recoupment: You mentioned not having to recoup studio costs?

Are your deals based on 'studio+producer' where it's agreed that all money is directed towards the studio costs (therefore unrecoupable out of producers royalties) and then your producer 'points' are calculated from album 'one'?

Again, great post! Cheers.

R.

Basically yes. I'll quote a price for a completed album including:
studio time
engineering
producing
assistant
studio material (hard drives, CD-Rs etc.).

not including
travel
hotels
rentals of outside gear
band material (strings, heads etc.)
mastering.

If I go over, it's on me, at least the "included" items. That way, whomever pays the bills, has a clear picture of what they are dealing with, budget wise. I get 50% up front, latest 3 weeks before pre-pro, 25% when I start mixing and the rest when I deliver the Masters.

This all falls under "recdording cost". Recording cost are recouped at the net artist rate (artist points minus producer's points), until which time nobody sees a penny. After that I get paid retroactive from record one without having to recoup any producer's advance.

The overall rate might vary slightly, depending on what I think the success of a project realisticly might be. If it's the new Beatles (in my mind) I take minimum $$s for the studio time and more points to keep the initial cost low and go into the risk with the band. Unfortunately this system doesn't work out well for new bands (which I love doing). There is of course a minimum rate for the studio, even for an established act, gotta keep the lights on...

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by mwagener
Jose, It wasn’t always that way. I started out in my own studio, had the equipment, no clients and a ton of time to experiment and read manuals. I invited the band from the rehearsal room next door to come in and record so I could learn how to do it.


I have to disagree. I have an intern now at my “project studio” and I’m sure he is learning a lot more than anybody just making coffee and cleaning the toilet in a “big studio complex”. I feel that you learn more by “doing”, I did. I never assisted in a “big studio”, jumped right into the hot water by running my own. In fact, I feel like I’m still in the hot water with every project I do. Ryu (my assistant) is now out recording bands himself on his ProTools rig, we just talked today and he mentioned that it’s a whole different story if you are actually responsible for what you’re doing, but he is doing it and learning.


I think you over value the “networking/climbing your way up” situation. The success stories where the assistant took over because the “real” engineer got sick are rare.


Well, I didn’t start out at the big studio/big productions stage, it took me many years to get there and I was really lucky to be in the right spot at the right time. Again I think you learn more by doing and making mistakes. You should never isolate yourself, go and hang with other engineers/producers, read books, go to forums like this one. I would have loved to have access to all this info at a push of a button, but maybe it was better that I didn’t and made mistakes and learned from them.

The most important thing to realize is, that it takes time to learn this, it’s not going to happen in a week, a month or even in a few years, it’s a 24/7/356 job and there is no instant gratification, in fact it will take forever until you get paid. Long, hard hours of work and don’t even think of having a relationship during that time…

Thanks Michael, as always it's a pleasure to learn from your experience

I do , I guess overvalue the networking of the big complexes because I did the intern/assist at one of these places and met so many talented people I became good friends with , it really changed my life in a very short period of time. I had to leave the place because my student visa had expired and didn't want to marry a american girl to get my green card which is another story.........

But I do now understand where you are coming from, and it's great to know there are other options to climb your way up. Thanks again for your reply.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally posted by Ol' Betsey
Excuse me?

My trouseres are firmly buttoned and MY TONGUE firmly with in my cheek regarding previous comments...

But can YOU please contribute something something that doesn't relate to your pimpdom?

Is this they way forward or is it just a way to keep YOU in business?

R.

If you feel that I don't contribute to this forum than you really don't know what you are talking about.... I get phone calls from people on this forum everyday asking my advice about how to setup their rooms, and what mic pre they should use for a certain situation, etc.. I get no monetary compensation from posting on this forum, or helping other GS members, if anything it costs me money in time that I am taking away from doing business... and if you think I'm making money pimping to people on GS, then you are sadly mistaken. Let me ask you a question. .. what are you contributing to this forum?? Who are you? what actual real world knowledge do you have about the topic at hand other than your personal opinions that producers and artists owning studios is wrong, because they get to "double dip" as you put it?? Welcome to the real world where the way you feel things "should be" doesn't amount to shit...

I personally don't care how much money a producer makes for making a record, I'm not trying to count how much money he is making, why are you?? I'm a producer myself and own my own studio and I don't get extra money for having it... I own it because I like to use quality gear in my recordings, and it makes sense for producers to own their own studios. Why is it wrong for someone who has made an investment of $500k, to recoup that investment from the label they are working for?

By the way, what ****ing business do I own that I need to keep in business know-it-all???

Originally posted by Ol' Betsey
OK, look.

The whole thing that kicked me off down this path was TB's comment about selling gear to 'producers' so they can 'double-dip'. And then his reference to keeping the 'large console' business alive (Alluding to another aspect of the audio sales/support industry).

But he didn't actually answer the topics question.

I don't care if that's what producers ARE doing, I wonder if it's a good thing.

I never said I sell gear to producers so they can "double dip"... I said, I have been "putting together studios" for more producers in recent times, because in the real ****ing world they are the one's that are building studios dipshit! Please do not quote me if you aren't going to literally quote what I have posted.
I feel like I pretty much answered the question very well, and am much more qualified to answer the question than you are.... The answer to the question at hand is "Yes"...

Sorry everyone... But, I felt the need for this response after being misquoted multiple times and having my reputation being questioned.