Bass D.I. and mic phase issues...

[AnalogBrain]

Hey guys,

Seen a few posts over the last few months discouraging using a DI for bass guitar, as well as micing the amp, unless you can "bump" the the two tracks in a DAW to get them perfectly in phase.

But didn't guys do this for decades before DAWs?

Are their any major problems to this, or are the digital dudes just being anal?

I've done this before. Did I miss something?

Thanks,
-Neil

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by AnalogBrain

Hey guys,

Seen a few posts over the last few months discouraging using a DI for bass guitar, as well as micing the amp, unless you can "bump" the the two tracks in a DAW to get them perfectly in phase.

But didn't guys do this for decades before DAWs?

Are their any major problems to this, or are the digital dudes just being anal?

I've done this before. Did I miss something?

Thanks,
-Neil

Hmm. Tons of people still do it.
I'd also like to know the cons, if they do exist.

[plexisys]

More modern albums have been mixed using a DI and a mic(s) on bass than any other way.

I think a lot of the negative posts you might be seeing are people that really don't know what they are talking about or maybe people just looking for an excuse. I've seen, and heard, people in the past saying "oh this is out of phase it sounds terrible" but when you put it on a quality phase meter everything was sitting where it was supposed to be. One of my favorites was a guy saying the same thing about a mono keyboard feed. He's sitting there pushing the solo button and saying, "does that sound out of phase to you?" It's a mono feed.

If you really have a phase issue look at some of the LittleLabs boxes http://www.littlelabs.com/ibpjr.html .

[AnthonyRochester]

yeah well you can play with the phase relatioinship of the two by moving the the mic around and trying the phase flip button but these days people just fix it in the mix..

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by beebay007

yeah well you can play with the phase relatioinship of the two by moving the the mic around and trying the phase flip button but these days people just fix it in the mix..

Unless you have an ibp box or similar, its not really the same thing.

A good tracking engineer wouldn't leave it till the mix - how can you judge the tone if you're not listening to the phase relationship?

[AnthonyRochester]

what's the difference between nudging tracks and nudging mics? Not much, i say. Except that you can only get the mic so close to the speaker..

[AndyUF2]

I think guys in the analog days took a page from the live guys.

Use the DI to provide a nice, clean, deep fundamental tone. Then, on the MIC channel, cut the lows. Don't be afraid - I go all the way up to 300Hz sometimes. I use the mic channel to provide the "amp raunch" in this scenario. Since most of the phase issues occur in the low end, this technique usually clears things up. If it still sounds dreadful, pop on the phase switch.

[AnalogBrain]

Cool guys,

Yeah, thats what I used to do... get a dirty somewhat distorted sound from the amp, and accent the bottom with the DI. Never noticed any major phase issues. If I did, I would just flip the phase switch and 99% of the time this would do the trick.

I was just wondering if there was something else I (and 10,000 other engineers) were missing.

Thanks all...
-Neil

[plexisys]

I think guys in the analog days took a page from the live guys.

I think most of us old guys started as live guys.

[vernier]

Its not an issue with analog tape.
'

[AnthonyRochester]

why not?

[Toasterboy]

I just listen and play with the phase button. Does it sound better like this? Or like this? Like this? Or like this?

If I can't get it to sound right I begin to move the mic, and if you have someone who can slowly move the mic from the cab while listening to both signals, lucky you!!

I very much dislike the concept of moving tracks. Anything that pulls or pushes the track away from it's originally played position even in microscopic increments just bothers me to no end. Maybe it's audible, maybe not, maybe it's feelable, maybe not, but the whole idea makes me cringe.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by vernier

Its not an issue with analog tape.
'

Hahahahaha!

[vernier]

For those that can't try it for themselves, just pull out an old record if you wanna hear good bass. Simple as that.
'

[seaneldon]

1) Nudging tracks does not do the same thing an IBP does.

2) Anyone who says there's no DI/Mic phase issues on analog tape probably lost most of their hearing 25 years ago.

3) Put on some headphones, monitor in mono, flip phase on the headphones. Move the mic around until you get as much cancellation as you think you can get. Leave the mic there. For me, it's usually a condenser in omni and it's usually a few feet back.

[IntenseJim]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

1) Nudging tracks does not do the same thing an IBP does.

Is the sonic outcome similar enough? I.e., can you/one hear the difference between a nudged versus phase changed track when combined with another track?

[Jim Williams]

In the olde days, before digital we would feed the bass rig with a 100 hz tone. The assistant would slowly move the mic back until the two sources added to maximum amplitude = in phase. Phase polarity switches are a 180 degree fix, not too adjustable, ehh? A phase adjustment tool does the same thing as moving the mic but you end up running the signal through more electronics.

I'll move the mic first.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[FreshSkweez]

The phase relationship between mic and DI trax could also be used for your advantage. I couldn't tell you how many neck/body resonances I've fixed using it. Currently I'm finishing a record where I used 2 mics and a DI for most of the bass work (an extra 112 on the sub-port for that cabinet lo-end - DI was a little too sterile to my ears). Now getting those in phase was a b*tch.

I've started ruffing some trax and am having tons of fun inverting them for TOTALLY different bass sounds that would work for particular songs.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by seaneldon

2) Anyone who says there's no DI/Mic phase issues on analog tape probably lost most of their hearing 25 years ago.

LOL. Or maybe it's just the noise floor.....

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

A phase adjustment tool does the same thing as moving the mic but you end up running the signal through more electronics.

There's one dedicated advantage with using a phase adjustement tool like the IBP: You can place the mics individually where they sound best and then mess with the phase to get the best combined sound. If you end up using just one mic in the end then it will be unharmed by the IBP as that only concerns the combined sound.

[nosebleedaudio]

If you close mic the cab you shouldn't have any problems..

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

If you close mic the cab you shouldn't have any problems..

It's not a problem but rather having more tonal options. Often, I end up not using the IBP when combining mics but even more often, it really sounds better.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

If you close mic the cab you shouldn't have any problems..

Except for proximity effect.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[rmorris]

maybe it's obvious to everyone here - but what is an 'IBP' box ?

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Unless you have an ibp box or similar, its not really the same thing.

A good tracking engineer wouldn't leave it till the mix - how can you judge the tone if you're not listening to the phase relationship?

[AudioFocus]

Yeah, there's no need to nudge audio about. I've looked at in Pro Tools even after I've gotten a good sound moving the mic etc. and my DI track is literally 10ms earlier. If people are nudging over 10ms or less it's just overkill.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by rmorris

maybe it's obvious to everyone here - but what is an 'IBP' box ?

http://www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html

It's a box that can bridge the gap between the phase flip switch being on and off.

Strangely no-one wanted one before you could actually see inaccurate representations of waveforms on your DAW screen, but things move forward.
Thank god.

[GordZilla]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

http://www.littlelabs.com/ibp.html

It's a box that can bridge the gap between the phase flip switch being on and off.

IBP = In Between Phase

Whereas on most consoles, interfaces, channel strips etc you can flip the phase 180 deg. only... with the IBP you can literally "dial in" the phase (continuously variable) anywhere from 0-180 deg... hence.. "in between phase"

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by AudioFocus

Yeah, there's no need to nudge audio about. I've looked at in Pro Tools even after I've gotten a good sound moving the mic etc. and my DI track is literally 10ms earlier. If people are nudging over 10ms or less it's just overkill.

What?

[allencollins]

I used to add a delay and sometimes a delay and chorus before the DAW

[hickyshuffle]

Originally Posted by AndyUF2

I think guys in the analog days took a page from the live guys.

Use the DI to provide a nice, clean, deep fundamental tone. Then, on the MIC channel, cut the lows. Don't be afraid - I go all the way up to 300Hz sometimes. I use the mic channel to provide the "amp raunch" in this scenario. Since most of the phase issues occur in the low end, this technique usually clears things up. If it still sounds dreadful, pop on the phase switch.

well put sir...well put.