This stops me from being a good engineer and I don't know what to do about it.

[IM WHO YOU THINK]

I can get some pretty good sounds out of stuff that I track. When I control the quality going in. I'm all good. But when I'm asked to track low budget stuff that's not tracked under the "best" or conditions (read best as meaning at least good/decent conditions).

I never get what I want from it. I'm a terrible turd polisher but more and more I'm being asked to fix stuff that I really don't feel I can get the results I'd want from.

What do I do to improve this?

[Mosby]

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK

I can get some pretty good sounds out of stuff that I track. When I control the quality going in. I'm all good. But when I'm asked to track low budget stuff that's not tracked under the "best" or conditions (read best as meaning at least good/decent conditions).

I never get what I want from it. I'm a terrible turd polisher but more and more I'm being asked to fix stuff that I really don't feel I can get the results I'd want from.

What do I do to improve this?

Well. I think you answered your own question.

Perhaps one solution would be to plan for the shortcomings ahead of time. Maybe grab a di from the guitars so you can reamp later - or plan on using samples to some degree to help the drums etc....

[RonCarlston]

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK

terrible turd polisher

Has such a nice ring to it.... band name maybe?

[danbronson]

I wish more people weren't such good turd polishers. Let the shitty bands suck I say.

But if you have to, I'd say develop some auto tune skills. Get good at drum sampling. Get good at time stretching. Find a good therapist, you'll need one.

[jval]

I too suffer from a lack of motivation and drive as soon as I hear a bad player. It's so easy to just give up on them and let it fly as long as they're happy. But I think this hurts you in the long run, because you end up with a bunch of shitty work on your resume.
As said before, record DI's to reamp after they take their crappy amps home, get good at editing drums and everything else, use samples, etc...
As hard as it is, sift through tracks after sessions and put together the best takes for each instrument - for example, instead of tracking each chorus 5 times for comping, save some time and just do each one once or twice and take the best parts of each, and use that for every chorus. stuff like that. It's usually a matter of letting them think they're good during tracking, and then editing the hell out of them after.
i wish I could let the bad bands suck, but the way it is these days, I wouldn't have any business.

[DannyMac]

Just say outright that what you are working with is SHITE.

[shaneoconnor]

so i sometimes have to polish some turds. thankfully boston has a lot of really wonderful bands right now.

when polishing the poo, i usually try to find some type of core element that is interesting (maybe bass, or guitar sounds) and use it as my anchor of hope almost.

this gets me through long days with crappy suburban blah..

[kooz]

Originally Posted by danbronson

I wish more people weren't such good turd polishers. Let the shitty bands suck I say.

[A LaMere]

It's work man... sometimes you love it... other times... it's work.

My advice is to always keep working as hard as you possibly can.
Also... be diligent.

In all honesty, most people I've ever known have learned a LOT of great tricks while polishing turds. Usually, they're tricks that payoff later in my opinion.....
Take it or leave it anyways...
Good luck with it,

[deuc647]

Try to work out a deal with the band to retrack the song or parts that are unsavable. Like a retrack and mix discount, itll help both of you guys in the long run.

[lynyrd]

Drumagog has helped me out of a pinch before.

[AnthonyRochester]

re-record some of the mechanical things yourself that they won't notice, like tambourine that's out of time etc.

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK

I can get some pretty good sounds out of stuff that I track. When I control the quality going in. I'm all good. But when I'm asked to track low budget stuff that's not tracked under the "best" or conditions (read best as meaning at least good/decent conditions).
I never get what I want from it. I'm a terrible turd polisher but more and more I'm being asked to fix stuff that I really don't feel I can get the results I'd want from.
What do I do to improve this?

To me this is an aspect about life in general. A guy making a marketing campaign has to deliver on time too, while his prime result needs three times the amount of time to develop. That's the truth of it, but our employers don't really care much about us developing our prime. Rather, they use us as assets to realize their thing, not ours. It's the aspect about life is that you shouldn't blame yourself for not being able to choose 100% what you get to work with, but you do the best you can given the conditions at hand.

However, you shouldn't accept to work with things that in your opinion is so bad shape that it's not going to be worth the time to fix it up. That's not good for the soul, and it's also quite practically dumb. Think of it as a busted up car; if the cost of fixing up the car is higher than the market value it will retain when fixed up, then you don't fix it up. Some people will fix unworthwhile cars up, saying "I need the cash" or "I'm building a network of contacts this way". While this may or may not be true, it certainly is a prostitute situation that needs to elevate or improve before it gets too heavy on the individual. We don't work well without sufficient rewards.

As much as engineering is a technical profession, you're interweaved with artistic decision, so it's not as easy to get people to accept your decision as with the car example above. With the car you can point to the numbers and show that it's not gonna fly, and boom the argument is over. With sound and music however things are subject to opinions rather than hard facts. So, stay away from getting drawn into arguments of however it is or isn't worthwhile; because the truth is your decision is made on your opinion and you have no hard, undisputable facts to show. Make up your mind about it, to yourself, make a mature and good decision and stick to it, then deliver it to the other parties. Of course there are social factors involved too, work strategy and loyalty things as well that needs to be a part of the decision. Sometimes you are too cooperative and people feel you're a bit too jelly and don't respect that. Sometimes you tell a customer to straigthen up and fly right, take a couple of arguments, and it may get people feeling you're a decisive guy because of it.

Either way, don't work on stuff you feel too bad about, it wears you down spiritually, and if you don't believe in what you work on, then the end result usually reflects that.
Good luck.

[GearBit]

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK

I can get some pretty good sounds out of stuff that I track. When I control the quality going in. I'm all good. But when I'm asked to track low budget stuff that's not tracked under the "best" or conditions (read best as meaning at least good/decent conditions).

I never get what I want from it. I'm a terrible turd polisher but more and more I'm being asked to fix stuff that I really don't feel I can get the results I'd want from.

What do I do to improve this?

It's these situations where you need to flex your reputation and confidence.
If no amount of fixing is going to make it listenable then tell them that you would need to retrack those elements that are most important. If they are coming to you for your results then 9 times out of 10 they will do what you say.

If they balk, then weigh up the damage.
If the artist has a killer track and is probably going somewhere then polish like you have never polished before because at the end of the day the artist will shine through. See becks first release for example.
If the artist is terrible and the recording is terrible then I would suggest demanding a retrack or passing on the gig altogether if you can afford it.

[IM WHO YOU THINK]

Originally Posted by slipperman

Stop judging the talent.

The sad irony of your job description is that the bands that really need help are the one's where you matter MOST.

The great bands will steamroll you.

You're a footnote on those ones.

Could be ANYBODY competent behind the desk and "it's not gonna be the difference between gold and platinum".

As the old saying goes.

Find joy and accomplishment wherever you can.

It'll help to keep you sane, and little else will.

Best regards,

SM.

Slip I'm not judging the music. Just the way it's tracked. The quality of what I get in the end (for me) is highly dependent on the quality of what I'm given to work with..

[rkwyent]

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK

Slip I'm not judging the music. Just the way it's tracked. The quality of what I get in the end (for me) is highly dependent on the quality of what I'm given to work with..

I mostly mix now and i get alot of sub-par work to mix. Either bad micing, prosumer converters, bland pre-amps and terrible frequency balances.

Sometimes the mixes are like reconstructive surgery but when the end result sounds decent it all pays off.

I look at it as training. The fast track to one day being a mastering engineer. If everything i mixed was pristine all the time I wouldn't know half the tricks i do now.

Embrace it and you will eventually be able to do what others deem impossible.

[zboy2854]

I remember asking Tom Lord Alge about this once. I asked him if he ever gets shitty sounding tracks to mix, and if so does he send them back to the client to retrack or fix, and he said no, his job was to make whatever he's given sound the best it can, and sometimes it means reaching into the bag of tricks to do whatever is necessary to make it sound great, or at least up to par.

Developing the bag of tricks takes time, experimentation, learning and experience. That said, here are a few practical tips I find useful:

-drums (real or programmed) should never be a problem and can easily be fixed these days, even if it means replacing or augmenting every element of the kit, including cymbals. Sometimes it means getting tedious, but you do what you have to--we have the technology

-find the best sounding element of the arrangement and make that one of the focal points of the mix. Downplay the worse sounding elements, or trash them up even more to make it sound like they were meant to be that way

-focus on the drums and vocals. If you can get those two elements sounding great, the ear will forgive a lot of sins in the rest of the arrangement

-never underestimate how aggressive EQ in the right frequencies can radically alter or reshape sounds to be a far cry from what they started out as

-amp simulators are your friend. I can't count how many times Sansamp or Amp Farm has salvaged a lousy sounding bass, wimpy guitars, even vocals and drums

[O-SKEE]

Originally Posted by DannyMac

Just say outright that what you are working with is SHITE.

thumbsupthumbsup... Honesty is the best policy...

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

I remember asking Tom Lord Alge about this once ... and he said no, his job was to make whatever he's given sound the best it can.

After all, isn't this the essence of what audio engineering is all about? Making a technical capturing of music sound the most musically true, listenable and compliant to the artistic expression? Even Alge seems to say that this is not about self-assertion first hand.
I can't imagine a good musician saying he won't play a tune because it won't make him sound as good as he want to be regarded as.

[Mr.HOLMES]

My experience is that the bad bands or musicians are going to need a very careful treatment and you have to be also an psychologist to get what you like to hear.

I have done those jobs my first two years and I can tell you I am off with it.
If someone can not perform or neither I see chance that he or she is getting it right I will not start working with this client. It is always calling for trouble.

Most of the shitty musicians also think they know all about arrangement and you just have to shut up.... so NOT WITH ME ANY MOREdfegad

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by IM WHO YOU THINK

I can get some pretty good sounds out of stuff that I track. When I control the quality going in. I'm all good. But when I'm asked to track low budget stuff that's not tracked under the "best" or conditions (read best as meaning at least good/decent conditions).

I never get what I want from it. I'm a terrible turd polisher but more and more I'm being asked to fix stuff that I really don't feel I can get the results I'd want from.

What do I do to improve this?

If you get the smell early on that you'd be ending up turdpolishing on the gig, just either don't take it and give them some advice on how to get a better starting point for a good result or find a way to make it happen to your standard if possible within budget.

There's nothing worse than turdpolishing and I am of the opinion that it's best left to people who seem to like being submerged in turdsurgery for large parts of their working hours.

Nothing more depressing than working under your own standard. Doesn't do you any good careerwise either, unless you plan to milk the turdmarket to the limit. What I don't understand is how many people on this forum defend polishing shite as a necessary evil....again, only if you want to get more of the same work, as no result from those conditions is going to sound in a way that it will help you get better work.

Have a doorpolicy.

Oh, and its easy for TLA to say that, as he's already way past getting served some proper turdfodder anyway......it's all relative.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Sk106

After all, isn't this the essence of what audio engineering is all about? Making a technical capturing of music sound the most musically true, listenable and compliant to the artistic expression? Even Alge seems to say that this is not about self-assertion first hand.
I can't imagine a good musician saying he won't play a tune because it won't make him sound as good as he want to be regarded as.

Unless he's a gun for hire I can full well imagine a musician rejecting an offer to play on something. Comes down to personal preference and choice. You wouldn't see Dylan on the next Britney record, would you?

Ah, but then you say, 'yes, but you're not Dylan!', and you'd be right. But nevertheless if someone wants to carve a career with some integrity of some kind it's not going to happen by constantly taking substandard gigs and moaning about the turds they 'have to' work on. NO ONE has to!

So do you want to be a turdpolisher with maybe a somewhat more secure incomeflow and lots to moan about or did you have a dream once about making really good records?? You know, ones you'd actually choose to listen to in YOUR own spare time.....

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Oh, and its easy for TLA to say that, as he's already way past getting served some proper turdfodder anyway......it's all relative.

"no, his job was to make whatever he's given sound the best it can"

and, if Dylan rejects an offer to do Spears stuff, he won't reject because it doesn't make him look as good as he wants to

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

What I don't understand is how many people on this forum defend polishing shite as a necessary evil....again, only if you want to get more of the same work, as no result from those conditions is going to sound in a way that it will help you get better work.

As the saying goes, "shite" happens. And given that we live in an era where more and more tracking is done in people's houses or acoustically substandard spaces by people who have no business calling themselves engineers, it HAS become a necessary evil in many cases, and yes, even on higher scale projects. Do I wish that things were different today? Absolutely. But if you only wish to work on projects that were tracked really well and not be prepared to deal with some measure of turd polishing, then be prepared to not work a lot.

Oh, and its easy for TLA to say that, as he's already way past getting served some proper turdfodder anyway.

Really? You don't think that a lot of the stuff you hear on the radio today has been Beat Detective'd, auto-tuned, vocaligned, sample replaced and edited within an inch of its life? Somebody had to do that stuff, whether it was the producer, tracking engineer or mix engineer. Take your pick.

The difference between the top level mixers and everybody else is that they have their own assistants to do most of the pre-turd polishing, cleaning up, fixing, sample replacing, consolidating, comping, editing and other work that the rest of us mortals have to do ourselves when we get shitty recorded and edited tracks to mix. Don't fool yourself.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Sk106

"no, his job was to make whatever he's given sound the best it can"

And the point I was making was that in his position it is easy to say that, as PROPER TURDS will at this stage of his career rarely find their way into his studio......

So 'whatever he's given' will at least be in a region of possible to make sound good. I strongly doubt his management would even bother him with a true turd.

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

And the point I was making was that in his position it is easy to say that, as PROPER TURDS will at this stage of his career rarely find their way into his studio......

So 'whatever he's given' will at least be in a region of possible to make sound good. I strongly doubt his management would even bother him with a true turd.

If the quote is right, he'll take the über-turd stuff if it shows up. Why wouldn't he? is he too good for it? is he so good that he can't make it sound great? is he just a big name without the ability to back it up? tutt

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

And the point I was making was that in his position it is easy to say that, as PROPER TURDS will at this stage of his career rarely find their way into his studio......

So 'whatever he's given' will at least be in a region of possible to make sound good. I strongly doubt his management would even bother him with a true turd.

Obviously he mainly mixes major label stuff, so it is of a certain level in terms of having some sort of redeeming quality. But there is still no guarantee as to the quality of the tracking or engineering before it lands on his console. Again, given these days a lot of projects (including a number of high level major label ones) are being done in houses or non-proper studio environments, there is no longer the guarantee even for the top level guys as to what the tracks are going to sound like when it gets to them.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

As the saying goes, "shite" happens. And given that we live in an era where more and more tracking is done in people's houses or acoustically substandard spaces by people who have no business calling themselves engineers, it HAS become a necessary evil in many cases, and yes, even on higher scale projects. Do I wish that things were different today? Absolutely. But if you only wish to work on projects that were tracked really well and not be prepared to deal with some measure of turd polishing, then be prepared to not work a lot.



Really? You don't think that a lot of the stuff you hear on the radio today has been Beat Detective'd, auto-tuned, vocaligned, sample replaced and edited within an inch of its life? Somebody had to do that stuff, whether it was the producer, tracking engineer or mix engineer. Take your pick.

The difference between the top level mixers and everybody else is that they have their own assistants to do most of the pre-turd polishing, cleaning up, fixing, sample replacing, consolidating, comping, editing and other work that the rest of us mortals have to do ourselves when we get shitty recorded and edited tracks to mix. Don't fool yourself.

I think you've misunderstood me here....mainly about the definition of a 'polishable turd'.
I agree with everything you say, yet I believe th OP was talking about the material in whatever way being unpolishable to achieve a good result. This is obviously not the case unless it is extreme, and a bit of someone's livingroom tracking doesn't necessarily pose a problem (could be better than someone elses studio tracking...).

I edit plenty, yet if you get the feeling its a 'deadborn' from the start I just don't see the point in doing it.

And, yes, the big guys have teams of 'polishing mokeys' to shine it up before it hits the master's faders. All part of the machine the client has payed for. Doesn't negate my angle though, of questioning if being such a machine is actually everyones idea of happiness........

I have spent YEARS turdpolishing for all and sundry and know one thing for sure now: Most things are better than a day in a studio doing that! And if that means I work on less music and enjoy it every time, tha's a lot closer to my original dream.....

You see, being a successful turdpolishing machine was never part of the dream, and never made me happy when I did it either. Just raising the point for some to think about, as I for one given the chance to go back, would not have spent as much time with turds as I did. There is more to life than turds!

Oh yeah, and like you say 'somebody had to do that stuff'....just a question if YOU want to be that somebody or not. No one HAS TO, plenty think they have to.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

Obviously he mainly mixes major label stuff, so it is of a certain level in terms of having some sort of redeeming quality. But there is still no guarantee as to the quality of the tracking or engineering before it lands on his console. Again, given these days a lot of projects (including a number of high level major label ones) are being done in houses or non-proper studio environments, there is no longer the guarantee even for the top level guys as to what the tracks are going to sound like when it gets to them.

Basically it'll be fixable though, or I'd guarantee you, he would not touch it with a bargepole. And I believe that is the sort of 'quality' the OP was talking about.......

[Musiclab]

You have to use bad tracks as a way to learn, when I used to do dance remixes , the 2 remixers I worked with would often come up with bad unmusical sounds. Of course they would fall in love with those bad sounds, I learned to deal with it and make it sound better and make them work in the track.
I remember getting tracks from a contemporary jazz project that were track so badly I got scared. The guy who tracked them I think used 2 dollar mics and decided that since the drummer hit the snare so hard he needed to move the snare mic away from the snare and put it next to the hi hat, which of course the drummer also pounded the s@#t out of. Somehow I figured a way to mix this stuff and get it to sound decent and then Scott Hull mastered it. Even in the last 2 weeks I got a project that has been totally ass backwards, the artist came here and I recorded him playing acoustic guitar to a click, then he had a bass player come in, after that he went to his drummers house who is a fine drummer but no engineer and has crappy mics , pre's and converters and cut drums
there cause he got them done for free. So now I've had to edit and clean up these bad drums which by the way probably have cost him as much in my editing time as it would have to just cut the drums here. So suck it up and instead of feeling like your not being a good engineer, learn!