Jeff buckley

[seb37000]

I am going to record a band that wants to sound as close as jeff buckley's grace as possible. Any information on mics, pre's, any info on the recording and mixing would be really appreciated...thanks

[De chromium cob]

Record as usual then hire Andy Wallace to mix it?

[everybody's x]

Oh man, first off they need a FREAK-ishly talented not-of-this-earth singer/songwriter, adept at seemlessly jumping through every known musical style in the span of 4 minutes and not having it sound like a clusterf**K
Oh and they (he?) has to be able to put out 60 minutes of music without a single cliche or familiar chord progression or anything remotely familiar or borrowed (which by their request alone rules that out)
and then all YOU have to do is approximate andy wallace

that's a tall order my friend

not trying to be a smartass, but I would just laugh if a band told me that

I mean, I think he played teles through fender amps and I'm pretty sure he sang through a U47, but you know I have a 50 watt marshall and still don't play like Hendrix

[DirkB]

Originally posted by seb37000
I am going to record a band that wants to sound as close as jeff buckley's grace as possible.

Have'm play as Jeff Buckley and his band did (together) on Grace.



Make sure you record them in a nice room and make sure you capture each instrument (and the room) so that all options are open at mix time.


Then have AW mix it...


Greetings,
Dirk

[doorknocker]

Well, I dig people that challenge themselves.
Saying that the band's goal is impossible to reach might be realistic but it's also a cop-out, I suspect Jeff goal was to top Led Zeppelin!
The question is rather; How do they define 'to sound as close a possible'?
Do you have a studio that compares to Bearsville?
Do you have 3 seperate setups- big rock band, smaller setup with vintage drumkit + a 'Coffehouse' solo setup, all miked up and ready to go anytime?
I'm not even talking about Jeff's talent which would be at least 80% of the whole thing.

On the other hand, I have learned so much about mixing, arranging and dynamics by listening to this amazing record called Grace.
It's one of these very rare things where everything is great: songs/performances/mix/pacing, they even got the remastering right that came out a while ago.

I would say that mics and preamps are the least thing you should worry about. Try to be INSPIRED by the 'Grace' sonics. IMO it's about 'implied power': You don't hear superloud, distorted guitars for the most part and it's all about a PERFECT mix balance, all hail Andy Wallace.

Good luck

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[everybody's x]

Originally posted by doorknocker
[B]
Saying that the band's goal is impossible to reach might be realistic but it's also a cop-out,

Hmm yes I agree, perhaps I should have said
"I would laugh at a band that asked me that, BECAUSE WITH THE LIMITED BUDGET/GEAR/AND TALENT (not necessarily in that order)that I have, there's no way I could pull that off.
I will bust ass and try to get you there, but there are limits that we can get to at the level we're at.
I don't know anything about the original poster and maybe he CAN get there, my comment was obviously coming from my perspective, no offense intended.

[bloodstone]

I can't understand why anyone would want their recordings to sound like something Jeff Buckley recorded, with all due respects to the man.

[De chromium cob]

I actually got to mix a live show of Jeffs back when Grace first came out (a quick pickup club date inbetween scheduled dates on his tour) and even through the fairly crappy club PA he sounded amazing.... I hadnt heard him before that and was just blown away. Gear has little to do with how great he sounded.

[seb37000]

Ooooh please....have'nt you ever had a band come to you and say that they play a certain type of music and there influence is this or that band and that there reference c.d is whatever...
I dont think its stupid to have influence and to try to recreate a certain type of sonic caracter, I think it helps you focus on a goal.

Having Andy wallace mix it would probably help, But I think it would help just about about every engeneer on what ever type of music.
If you take jeff buckley and system of the down you have two completly different things , so what is the difference...., the band of course, the studio, the recording technic, the gear, just about everything...but there was a direction taken to have certain sonic caracter and in order to get to this they used a certain gear, in a certain room, with a certain...whatever...

listen to in utero recorded by albini and mixed by wallace, even thow albini hates the mix and the mastering it still has the albini sound, a sound ( sonic caracter ) that there is deffenetly not on smells like teens spirit, even thought it's the same band and still wallace mixing.

knowing that they recorded in the same room "live" is a big help, thanks, for the vocal mic I think it was an u87, other from that I know nothing and apparently apart from the people that where there no one else knows either.

[seb37000]

Do you really think that what they where after was the led zepplin sound...???; hum...., in that case do you think they might of thought for a second, " I wonder how they got that big room sound on the drums, lets do a little research and find out what they did to make it sound like that" or did they just think " led zepplin, easy, lets just put a 57 over the kit in a dead room" or maybe " we dont have bonham anyway so whats the point to even try".

[Autowow]

In the documentarys and videos I've seen of Jeff he always played a Fender tele through a mesa boogie (dual rectifier combo I think) and a fender amp. Good luck!

[everybody's x]

Originally posted by seb37000
Do you really think that what they where after was the led zepplin sound...???; hum...., in that case do you think they might of thought for a second, " I wonder how they got that big room sound on the drums, lets do a little research and find out what they did to make it sound like that" or did they just think " led zepplin, easy, lets just put a 57 over the kit in a dead room" or maybe " we dont have bonham anyway so whats the point to even try".

good point geez
ok I withdraw all my comments and just say "I dont know what they did, good luck"

[seb37000]

thanks Autowow, this is a good starting point for the guitar setup.

[cgarges]

Originally posted by seb37000
listen to in utero recorded by albini and mixed by wallace, even thow albini hates the mix and the mastering it still has the albini sound, a sound ( sonic caracter ) that there is deffenetly not on smells like teens spirit, even thought it's the same band and still wallace mixing.

Not to nitpick, but Andy Wallace had nothing to do with In Utero. He mixed Nevermind, which had nothing to do with Albini.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Slider]

Yeah, the REM guy mixed and messed with a few tracks on In Utero right?
I can't remember his name right now.
The rest are Albini's mixes.
Albini's a great engineer.
Wallace kind of has a sound as well.
Slicker than Albini.

[cgarges]

Scott Litt, who was also an engineer on the Star Wars Christmas album.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[seb37000]

sorry my mistake, but i think you get my point...

[kieran kelly]

"Grace "was not even close to being as good as Jeff Buckley live..... a lovely record yes , but it was him and his band that created the magic and frankly Grace was a bit

the sound of that album is very "mid 90's"

I saw him 2 times AMAZING Live...

PS : My band "Summer Lawns " is being featured in the next issue of Jeff buckleys offical news letter. We were chosen to play the 7th annual offical tribute in Chicago this last November

[Kestral]

II'm a HUGE Jeff Buckley fan, but rather than give you the cliche "How dare you even attempt to do something as good as Jeff, no one will ever beat him", I'll try to think constructively...

As someone here mentioned, for clean tones, vintage Telecaster into a Fender Vibroverb. Here's a list of Jeff Buckley's gear:

http://www.jeffbuckley.com/rfuller/b...aq/25gear.html

As someone else also mentioned, Bearsville Studios. Probably one of the best studios in North America. My studio partner, who has platinum records hanging on the wall, and one of his best friends (who also has platinum records hanging on the wall). They've both used Bearsville before to record. What you'll need at least is: well maintained Neve 1073's, Urei 1176's, LA2A's, U47's

Then it comes down to the mix - Andy Wallace is one of the best guys at what he does, don't know how to duplicate that 100%, that's all up to you but there were some great threads about Andy Wallace a few months back so you may want to search the archives and see if you can find those posts.

[Gone Fission]

Originally posted by kieran kelly
"Grace "was not even close to being as good as Jeff Buckley live..... a lovely record yes , but it was him and his band that created the magic and frankly Grace was a bit

the sound of that album is very "mid 90's"

I saw him 2 times AMAZING Live...

Hmm. Sounded rather out of keeping with the mid 90's to me - none of that awfully, phasey wash of overcompressed cymbal sound, for example. Doesn't strike one as mid-90's in the same way as Silverchair or Bush. I'm sure there's something to the assertion, but I'd appreciate a bit of elaboration.

I think your objection has to do with the context with which the album was created. The band came into being around that album, so naturally they were better afterwards. They actually stopped the recording sessions for a while so they could do some shows and tighten up.

Bear

[seb37000]

interesting to see that it was recorded in a barn, barns usualy sounding pretty dry never would of guessed it with all those fancy reverbs.
its interesting to listen to dream brother alternat take and listen to the difference with the other version,

[max cooper]

Scott Litt, who was also an engineer on the Star Wars Christmas album.

Awesome choice!

I think it's always good to have a jumping off point, as it's usually just a simple way for the artist to indicate to the engineer where they're coming from. The cool thing is that they'll never sing like Jeff Buckley, never have songs like him, etc... and hopefully the final product will be able to stand on it's own. There are so many recordings that inspire me to make music, and any week it could be one or the other. I think it's optomistic to use Grace as a jumping off point, and that's great, 'cause I don't think any of us would be doing this if we weren't optomisitc. I think choosing a record as hallowed as Grace can make one something of a target as Jeff Buckley was immensely talented not to mention that he's no longer with us (making it all the more "dangerous" to use as a reference) and it's a monumental work, but why not aim high? When the artist mentioned that record, I'll bet lots of ideas jumped into your head about how to proceed, and that's the purpose. If it ended up being a Grace knock-off, that's another story, but there's nothing inherent in the way you worded the initial post to indicate that a knock-off is intended.

More power to 'em!

[seb37000]

right on max

[Kestral]

Just to bring things back to earth a bit..

Grace is no doubt a great album, but there were better: U2's Achtung Baby for one.

imo there's nothing wrong with being inspired by another artist.

Just take a look at U2's The Fly - heavily inspired by the Charlatan's The Only One I Know.

[Silver Sonya]

...I much prefer "sketches for My Sweetheart, The Drunk" to "Grace"?

That song "Witches' Rave" just slays me. Weird, sexy, hallucinatory. Amazing and just sonically awesome.

It kind of breaks my heart to think where this genius would have gone, musically speaking, had he lived. In the world of corporate-funded alternative rock, you almost never get artistry of this caliber. Jeff Buckley, Elliott Smith... these are people who I believe might have made amazing music into their old age.

I'm just glad Mark Eitzel's still alive! Check out the new AMC record!

www.americanmusicclub.com

--- Chad

[mr. T]

You prefer "My sweetheart...."? Buckley was obviously to some extent satisfied with "Grace", but when he died he was just about to rerecord the entire "My sweetheart..." album. Why? Because he couldn't stand it. It was not finished, it lacked the vibe and overall magic of "Grace" and the songs were not as good. There are a couple of tracks that touch some of the vibe of "Grace", though ("The sky is a landfill" and also "Everybody here wants you" though it's very different). IMHO this release smells of greed and nothing else. I think that "My sweetheart" really weakens Buckley's iconic status and though I'm a fan I just wish that all the demos and mediocre livestuff were never released so that we could remember him as the vibrant and unique artist he was. Buckley was at his peak, out of this world and at his lowest, a struggling, tortured soul, whos writing sometimes came into a rut. Listening to his unfinished scetches is like watching a painter in progress. You'd have to be the artist to really understand what the piece will become. It can't be understood by everyone.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by mr. T

I think that "My sweetheart" really weakens Buckley's iconic status and though I'm a fan I just wish that all the demos and mediocre livestuff were never released so that we could remember him as the vibrant and unique artist he was. Buckley was at his peak, out of this world and at his lowest, a struggling, tortured soul, whos writing sometimes came into a rut. Listening to his unfinished scetches is like watching a painter in progress. You'd have to be the artist to really understand what the piece will become. It can't be understood by everyone.

I agree. But this happens with any great artist, really. Just yesterday I listened to part of Miles Davis 'Complete Plugged Nickel' set. Everybody agrees that this is one of the greatest live sets ever. Most of it wasn't released in Miles lifetime, would he have agreed to release it? Possibly yes but if not, it might have robbed us of a most beautiful thing.
It's a difficult subject, you might know that the great writer Franz Kafka (who didn't write for a living) ordered in his will to have all his writings destroyed. Luckily, his publisher didn't grant his wish.
So what's more important? The 'ego' of the artist or the 'legacy' aspect? Mostly it's about money, I'd say......

I think that with really great artists (and I think of Jeff Buckley as such) their impact won't be diminished no matter how much trash there is released eventually.
Look at Jimi Hendrix, 30 years of greedy sub-standard releases couldn't shake the greatness of his achievements. And there were SOME great things uncovered in the process too.

As for Jeff Buckley, I highly recommend the book 'Dream Brother-The lives & music of Jeff & Tim Buckley' by David Browne. A biography about as unsensationalistic and well-researched as you'll ever find.
It's interesting to read about the process of recording 'Grace' and the troubles of following up on it i.e the 'Sweetheart' sessions.

I think the released 'Sweetheart' set was well done, if you accept what these recordings are -Sketches - and to their credit the powers in charge said so in the title 'Sketches for My sweetheart the drunk'.

I think it's great to hear Jeff do Genesis 'Back in NYC' on his own, even though it's a 4-track cassette recording never intended for release.

I have more of a problem with what came afterwards, the Grace demos and especially the 'Mystery White Boy' set, a substandard live release IMO.

On the other hand, I think the 'Live at L'Olympia' set is great and gives at least a fair impression what the band could do live.

The 'Sin-Es' and 'Grace' 2 CD editions were also well done. I had the greatest doubts about the 'Grace' set but it works, even the remastering was tastefully done.

I suspect that there will be much more coming though and that's a shame. Once the 'legacy industry' is built up for a deceased artist, the monster has to be fed.

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[mr. T]

I agree in much of this, but as far as I can recall "My sweetheart" was actually a finished album produced by Tom Verlaine. Buckley wasn't satisfied and planned to redo the entire album (with Wallace this time). In other words, he wanted to scrap the entire album. And again, I can understand why because this is not a milestone like "Grace". Of course you can't only release milestones as an artist and you shouldn't try to go by a succesful formula because it worked once, but still "My sweetheart" is pretty flat and uninspired sounding to me.
As a songwriter/producer I have stopped doing one thing. I don't play unfinished material to anyone. Why? Because songs in their rawest form, without arrangements or the correct instruments and so on, leaves to much to "fill in" for the listener. The song might be strong in itself, but if you are unable to imagine what it could be, then you're not "mature" enough to understand the context and the essence of the song. People tend to listen to the wrong things ("Funny sounding vocals", "Where's the drums?" and so on) fuuck I find it easier to play such stuff to other producers as they have another way of listening.
Another reason is also that an "immature" listener might say: "oh, that sounds like that song with that band". This might also put you of and also makes you less inspired to work further on a tune. The listener sort of biases you to listen to your song in a limiting way.
My point is that very few people were able to understand what Buckley was doing on his raw four-track demos. To me these schetches feels more like an intrusion into a mans work in progress. They are not very valuable memories of Jeff. As the perfectionist he was I bet he would be horrified knowing that these private tapes would be available for the public. I agree that it would be a shame if the songs were great but I don't think they were or they were on a premature level.
I also have the live-DVD from Boston which is a really bad production. Bad sound, bad lighting, Buckley in a strange, unfocused mood and the band playing a pretty uninspired set. Still it has it's moments of greatness and for people like myself who never got the chance to see him live, it's at least something. A release doesn't have to be perfect but it has to be something that the artist has performed or recorded with an audience in mind. In my humble opinion, of course.

[Gregg Sartiano]

"I Know We Could Be So Happy (If we Wanted To Be)" is one of my favorite Buckley songs -- and it's a 4-track demo...

[eligit]

to reply to the original question:

the absolute number one thing that makes grace what it is is

jeff buckley.

if this band you are working with can write songs that good and the singer can sing that well you are home.

if this is NOT the case you are out of luck no matter what gear you use.

you could have done grace with any pres and as long as the material and band was what it was you would have gotten a great record.

as far as the engineering i think that preserving the organic dynamics of the tunes and playing is the single most important aspect. as long as everything is not super compressed (both in how it is played and how it is recorded) that will help (even tho it will most likely get slammed in mastering which could destroy the dynamics).

also the record sounds like it has lots of ambient mic-ing. not everything has a mic right up on it. and if it does there is a room mic as well.

just my opinion of this amazing record.