Clean, unhyped mic: KSM32 or Avenson?

[Kubilay]

I know, I know, one's a cardioid large diaphragm, the other a pair of small-diaphragm omnis, so you really can't compare them, blahdeeblah, BUT:

If you had to go with one of these for a very natural, unhyped instrument mic, to be used in a small (and thus not flattering) room, which one would it be? Or should I be looking at another mic in the range of $500 for this purpose? (BTW I own the Oktava MK012, and that one does not fit the bill, a definite 'sound' there. Sometimes very nice, but not what I'm looking for here.)

The Avenson could go in much closer , the KSM is directional; both very different advantages in a small room. (But of course, you can only get so close to, say, an oboe... so that would be a strike against omnis.)

And then there's how they individually sound (I haven't worked with either yet, trying to narrow down choices here...)

Sources would be solo acoustic instruments, from woodwinds to violin to small percussion.

Again, unhyped and very natural is the goal here.

Budget (obviously) around $500. Stereo pair not necessary (the Avenson just don't come in singles.)

So, what'll it be?

[squeegybug]

Avenson, no question. Now I'll stop going on about them, see this thread: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showt...5&pagenumber=1

I use them in a 14x16x8 (ht.) room. Can place from 1 inch to 3 feet or more easily.

A large diaphragm (single pattern) mic is not directional enough to avoid being influenced by the room.

Steve

[Dot]

Originally posted by Kubilay
If you had to go with one of these for a very natural, unhyped instrument mic, to be used in a small (and thus not flattering) room...

In a "small but unflattering room" I'd forget the Avenson's. We've been using a pair of the STO-2's for over a year. And we used another pair before that when they were known as Stapes omnis. These are not flattering mics. They are excellent when you have a room and a source that sounds good. And that's true of some of the other transparent omnis such as DPA and Earthworks. You got a room that sounds like ass, it's gonna sound like ass through those kinds of mics. You gotta great room, they'll sound amazing.

My vote even over the KSM32 for a natural, unhyped instrument mic would be the ADK TL http://www.adkmic.com/specs/TL.html

You can hear a pair of TL's being used on piano I recorded
http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/jazzooo.htm
Download "NY Blues"

The TL is transformerless, and where it's going to help you get the best sound in your room is with one of its 4 patterns - cardioid, hypercardioid, figure-8, omni. The hypercardioid pattern is even tighter than cardioid - so if it turns out your room isn't sounding all that great you can select that pattern and pick up much less of it. Or maybe the omni or bidirectional patterns will work for you. It's a great sounding mic. Not a "budget" mic. TL's were recently used on the last recordings of Ray Charles' piano - and lots of orchestra and other sources on his last CD, "Genius Loves Company". ADK's TT's were used all over the place, too, including Ray's vocals. ADK's cranking out some serious mic.

If you're wanting a pair of SDC's, the Peluso CEMC6's are excellent and run under $600/pair with cardioid capsules. There are also optional omni and hypercardioid capsules that will be available soon. Excellent, clean and neutral mics. There's only a handful of SDC's on the market [ Avenson and Josephson included ] under $1000/pair that offer the level of performace you'll get with the CEMC6's.

[squeegybug]

Well Dan, I value your opinions on a lot of setups. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I've owned and used a bunch of ADKs, the A-48 has been my favorite for female vocals for two years -- for a big, rich, processed sound. The TT was horrible on my particular (very experienced and talented) sources, even with various tubes and patterns. The CS-1 was barely tolerable. None of these were anywhere close to neutral; very hyped mics IMO. The KSM27 I've used a lot (not 32) is nice, certainly a difficult mic for natural-sounding acoustic instruments in my experience.

The small omnis work great for me for a clean, natural sound. Maybe we are interpreting "flattering" differently -- I'm not saying they will make the source sound better than it is, they certainly will not do that like the "effects" mics. As I've said in other threads, the Avenson omnis just sound musical and pleasant to me. My room ain't no studio mansion, but with excellent talent like I'm occasionally fortunate to record, the Avensons are shining stars for presenting that talent, just as it is.

Steve

[Drumsound]

I used a KSM 32 when they first came out. I found it to be very roomy in a bad way. I've not head the mic in about four years though...

[Dot]

squeegybug, I wasn't recommending the TT or the custom CS-1. I specifically recommended the ADK TL - which is neutral, unhyped, and doesn't sound anything like the other ADK mics you've used.

The Avenson's are great mics. I recommend them often. I also caution people who have rooms that they think may not flatter the overall recording - which is often the case.

If Kubilay gets a pair of transparent SDC omnis in his room and they don't work - that's the end of that. But with a 4-pattern transformerless mic that also sounds great - he's going to have a lot more choices.

And I also recommended the Peluso CEMC6's if a SDC pair is more important.

I've put up some Avenson's recently in room that didn't complement the overall sound of the guitar we were recording. So I put up a TL in cardioid and it worked great. Then I put up a pair of CEMC6's on the acoustic - and they were perfect. A little hint of the space immediately surrounding the guitar - but non of the fluttery early reflections splashing off the walls and ceiling that we'd been picking up with the omnis. We ended up tracking with a TL on vocals and a pair of cardioid CEMC6's on the acoustic guitar.

I use SDC omnis all the time. Omnis work great when they work. And when they don't work - they really don't work.

[Dot]

Sources would be solo acoustic instruments, from woodwinds to violin to small percussion.

Actually, Kubilay, another mic I'd recommend for those applications would be the Beyer M160 ribbon mic. Runs around $400 or so.

[squeegybug]

Dang, now you got me interested in those TLs Dan :) Yeah I misread your reference to TT as a recommendation for the OP. I really like ADK, I was just pointing out that all of 'em I've tried have been pretty much character mics.

I've been pretty taken with the Avensons, since they are so distinctly different than the tons of std. condensers, ribbons, and dynamics I've been using. A refreshing change to have just a pure clean tone to work with, can be a real advantage in my music, which is almost completely acoustic.

And I probably wouldn't have gambled with them either, except for their good return policy if they didn't work out. I know folks (and me too) come here to ask opinions, but man I have just got to get equipment in my place and my sources to find out for myself. And I was glad I did.


Steve

[jajjguy]

They really will sound different, and you have to try them to know what you like.

That said, I really really like the sound of SD omnis (in my case earthworks qtc) on acoustic sources, especially bowed strings. The super-fast response seems to get a certain magic thing about the bowed string sound that is very hard to capture in any other way. I find this "flattering", compared to the way many other mics seem to miss something about the sound of these instruments.

Placing these mics very close to the source can come close to eliminating the room, assuming the source is not especially loud (i.e., not electric), though you may want to do some gobo-ing. I don't say that it will always work in any room, but it's worked for me in some pretty bad ones.

is the a-48 a "vintage style" mic? ie. based on say a u47 or u48?

[squeegybug]

a-48 a "vintage style" mic?

Well, ADK calls it a vintage type. I've not used those Neumanns, I have compared it to Soundelux E47 and E49, and the A-48 has much more detail and air than those mics. Hardly any bass proximity, and a really nice sheen on the highs, good resonant mids.

From my conversations with ADK, they seem to consider their modeled mics to represent either the "German" or the "Austrian" approach. I've heard A-48 maybe was meant to be around the M49 range, but I think it has some of the "Austrian" flavor IMO, as far as the general tones I've heard recorded among those types.

Steve

[Don S]

I'm sorry that I can't comment on the comparison requested. But, I work frequently with Schoeps and B&K, as to keep a natural sound of a performance. The KSM32 is still one of my favorite mics! It's got a fairly flat response, and is a 3/4 inch. Not a full 1 inch. Very low self noise. They work beautifully in stereo pairs. And at a street price of $300 a bargain. Just my HO.

Cheers,
Don

[audiothings]

i've been using and recommending the avensons for a while. my iso booth is a reasonably dead 6 x 11 room, unflattering, but usually not detrimental to the sound. perhaps a wee bit on the lifeless side of neutral. the avensons serve me fine, definitely more natural than any of my other mics.

recently i compared the sto-2's with a studio electronics z5600, in a solo acoustic guitar recording that needed quite a bit of gain. i must say that the noise factor is truly disappointing, compared to the much cleaner z5600. on checking back with the websites i found that the equivalent noise ratings are 16 dBA and 28 dBA for the 5600 and the avensons, respectively. i decided to go with the avensons anyway, i could'nt stand the etched high frequencies and the brittle harshness of the 5600 (tho' it has served me well on a few other occasions), but the noise was really quite distracting.

the poorer noise specification of the avensons is decidedly audible in a soft, solo recording situation, at least in my humble experience. they shoud work fine in applications requiring less gain.

don't mean to hijack the thread, but can anybody recommend a microphone pair similar to the avensons, but much quieter?

thanks,
self.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by Don S
The KSM32 [...] a street price of $300 a bargain.

more like $500

[squeegybug]

...recommend a microphone pair similar to the avensons, but much quieter

Not for $250 apiece BTW, if you want to hear a noisy omni try the Beh***ger ECM8000, ouch. Here's some info about small diaphragm vs large self-noise http://tinyurl.com/3ok73.

To get a better S-N I sometimes just use two omnis in XY or close spaced, and add both tracks. I also occasionally use an expander on tracking and/or mixing.

In my studio, high sensitivity large condensers will often create about as much noise as the omni hiss, just a different kind (rumble, mouth and clothing noise, bleed, etc.). Depending on the production, I can usually work around either one.

Or you can always use this old standard:

First, record a very quiet sound (or silence). Now, when tracking the next time, play back the quiet recording into the room at high volume. If the recording is still too noisy, just turn up the quiet one some more.

Steve

i dont get that, play back room tone? why?

[squeegybug]

ummm... joke. Sorry should have ? Or maybe someone will try it and let us know...

Steve

[Kubilay]

Thanks for all the replies! I guess I'll just have to try the Avensons. Since they are easier to get from a place with a decent "try-it" policy, I may just try those and see if they do the job. If they do, no need to try the KSM32 as well.

(...it's seems so easy to get into the mindset of "gotta try it all and then pick the best." Five years later, you *may* be done testing stuff and able to actually start to work on music... but I digress)

Now Dan, I'm a bit surprised that you also recommended the M160 in this context. I've been interested in that one for a while, but isn't it quite a dark and full-sounding mic? As in, not at all "natural and unhyped?"

[toledo3]

Well, I haven't tried the Avensons, but I tried the Stapes (same thing, I hear... and it doesn't even come close to a KSM 32.

Maybe it's just b/c I did the "homebrew" panasonic capsule thing myself and I associate it with a cheap sound...? Stapes sounded exactly like the pair I (actually, my uncle) made.... which sound about 99% the same as a crown pzm unnattached from the plate (around $60 bucks).... I'm sure the Avenson has a much nicer housing though.

[squeegybug]

Sure, I've recorded lots of stuff with a Radio Shack lapel mic. It's a Panasonic capsule too, only costs $30. And it certainly doesn't sound like Avenson.

And no, Avenson doesn't sound like KSM32 either, for which I'm very glad. I'm up to my ears in large diaphragm condensers and it's a relief to find something different that works well -- for me.

I think Erik Wofford has said the Avensons were upgraded from the old Stapes. I've never used the old ones, so don't have an opinion on that comparison.

BTW that other link to small vs large self-noise seems to not work, here's one that should be ok -- http://tinyurl.com/3q5nx

Steve

[toledo3]

Originally posted by squeegybug
Sure, I've recorded lots of stuff with a Radio Shack lapel mic. It's a Panasonic capsule too, only costs $30. And it certainly doesn't sound like Avenson.

And no, Avenson doesn't sound like KSM32 either, for which I'm very glad. I'm up to my ears in large diaphragm condensers and it's a relief to find something different that works well -- for me.

I think Erik Wofford has said the Avensons were upgraded from the old Stapes. I've never used the old ones, so don't have an opinion on that comparison.

BTW that other link to small vs large self-noise seems to not work, here's one that should be ok -- http://tinyurl.com/3q5nx

Steve

I think your post in in response to mine....

BUT, I don't say that a radioshack lapel mic sounds like an Avenson.

AND, it seems that all Erik is saying is that the housing is upgraded- between the Stapes and the Avenson....I'll go back and check that.

ALSO, the ksm32 is NOT a large diaphragm condenser.

I am not saying that the Avensons are crap, that they are not useful, or that they don't make your life easier. What I am saying is that, for me, there are other alternatives when I am seeking that tone that are more affordable...

And, I am not adverse to dropping a load of cash on something that will make my life easier. I wasn't mentioning the pzm's due to a "budget/lo-fi" mentality. I was simply throwing out an observation; do what you want with it- use it, or print it out on paper and wipe your ass with it.

Now, the Stapes or Avensons look better than using a PZM unnattached from the backplate- for that reason alone, it may be better to go with them, if you have a commercial studio. They also have a sturdier body....

In my world, YES Stapes is a small diaphragm.... but worlds apart from something like a Neumann 8x series, the Gefell's, or even the Shure's.... and MUCH closer to the sound of those PZM's without a backplate.

[audiothings]

BUMP!!

i'm still using the avensons a lot. can't say that i'm completely happy with them, but they serve me very well purely in comparison with my other mics (414, cad m179, se z5600, shure 81, 57, 58...).

still wondering what the fool proof step up is. i'm looking for a more musical pair of mics. i feel that the avensons, good as they are, don't translate some things anywhere near as musically as the live sound.

so people, whats the next step up?

thanks,
self.

[NewOrleansSteve]

I have not used the Avensons. But I can tell you that using an OMNI can seriously change the way you do bussness, if you haven't tried an Omni yet.
BYW The KMS 32 is really a great mic. I'v a/b ed them with a U87 and went with the Shure. Not that there 'better' than this and that, but they are serious contenders. Another flavor that complements them is the AT 4047. I have not had any favorable results with any other At mics - this one is different.
Steve

[STILL]

I have Ksm 32's in my stuff, and I have to say they are REALLy great mics for what they are. They're cheap, tough, will work on anything and sound GREAT on many things (suprisingly good on acoustic instruments with good placement) and can even be used on vocals, as well as overheads, though they will grab more low info than some people like..

I believe you can get them for a good bit less than 500 each, and like I say, for the money they're very hard to beat.

[BenJah]

Well, I have heard the avensons need a great preamp to really shine. I use a pair with a buzz audio preamp and to my ears they sound fantastic. Just like been in the room..

[squeegybug]

don't translate some things

I'm also curious what preamps you're using. I agree with Benjah that a top pre really helps those mics.

And also cables, can add noise/problems there as you probably know...

Steve

[James Lehmann]

Originally posted by audiothings
i'm still using the avensons a lot. can't say that i'm completely happy with them, but they serve me very well purely in comparison with my other mics (414, cad m179, se z5600, shure 81, 57, 58...). still wondering what the fool proof step up is. i'm looking for a more musical pair of mics. i feel that the avensons, good as they are, don't translate some things anywhere near as musically as the live sound. so people, whats the next step up?

Well I'm no expert on this but for an omni pair I think the 'next step up' from the Avensons are MUCH more expensive mics like Earthworks QTC1, Sennheiser MKH20 or the various offerings from DPA and Schoeps.

FWIW I've no idea why the original post attempts to compare the KSM32 which is a large-diaphraghm cardioid with the Avenson which is a small-diaphragm omni costing 1/2 the price? As some folks have already pointed out, we are talking about two totally different mics designed for totally different applications and to a totally different price-point.

[Johns]

The KSM32 is not a large diaphragm mic. It's diaphragm is 3/4". And yes, it is a very usable mic.