3-track tape recorders

[bensonstankut]

Hi,

We are researching the emergence of the 3-track recorder in the mid-1950s and its use during the late 1950s and early 1960s. We're fairly certain that Bob Fine was the first to make use of one for the Mercury Living Presence Series beginning in 1955. However, we have very little other information. We're hoping to find out more about (1) the history of 3-track recording (2) when the 3-track recorders began to be widely used (3) whether their expanding use arose because of the commercialization of stereophonic recordings (4) the particular kinds of microphone placements that were used for 3-track recordings (5) when they stopped being used widely (6) whether there are any currently in use, for recording or for archival re-releases

Finally, the focus of our project is the use of the three-track in Capitol Studios in Los Angeles in the late 1950s and early 1960s. In particular, we're interested in knowing more about the recordings of Nat King Cole from that time. Actually, any information you might have regarding the Nat King Cole sessions from that period would be helpful.

Any help would be immensely appreciated.

Thanks so much!

[bensonstankut]

Thanks moracspace for your speedy reply. We can't thank you enough.

We respectfully disagree with your envisioning of what research is. For us, having conversations with knowledgeable practitioners not only constitutes real research, it is one of the very best ways to grapple with complex histories. What could be better than asking the collective wisdom of a major online community to pool the knowledge of each individual member in an effort to increase everyone's understanding. We really don't see anything wrong with this. In fact, we think this is the best that online communities have to offer.

Just so you know, our questions are part of a much larger research effort and, as with any research project, we're using a variety of methods.

By the way, the three-track recorder didn't just fizzle out quickly. It was an integral part of recording history, an essential link between mono/early stereo recordings and full-blown multi-track recordings. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, as far as we can tell, all of the major studios used them. But, then again, this history is indeed a little fuzzy and we were hoping for more than a snide response, riddled with typographic and grammatical errors. And we say this not just for the good of our own project but with the hope that everyone would stand to gain from this conversation. We hope other members of gearslutz are more generous in their responses. Thanks.

[yrplace]

Brian Wilson used three track through 1965 at Western, Goldstar , Sunset and other studios in LA. Goldstar didn't get a 4 track until late 66 or early 67, but Western had them by 1966. BTW it cost extra to record on 4 track in those days......

I have a 3 and 4 track playback stack for my ATR-104 deck which we use for archival playbacks of The Beach Boys and other artist's tapes.

Mark Linett

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by bensonstankut

But, then again, this history is indeed a little fuzzy and we were hoping for more than a snide response, riddled with typographic and grammatical errors. And we say this not just for the good of our own project but with the hope that everyone would stand to gain from this conversation. We hope other members of gearslutz are more generous in their responses. Thanks.

2 posts and you're dissing people on the board already. Perhaps you might go to the library at whatever pillar of academia your parents are paying to babysit your arrogant ass and check out the books first. You might be surprised to learn that three track recorders exist to this day. We just record SMPTE on the center track... At any rate good luck with your research and your people skills.

Ken Paul
Kengineering

[themaidsroom]

there is a three track at the magic shop in nyc that steve rosenthal uses as part of his
work with restoration and reissues.




be well


- jack

[Jay Kahrs]

There's a guy in central NJ named John Noll who has or at least had a 1/2" 3-track in his shop. I can't imagine he'd have unloaded it as I think he put a great deal of time into restoring the machine... but I know he was doing a bunch of archival transfers and restoration work with it a few years ago. I recall him saying that the methods were somewhat varied... back in the day when there was one tracking session for a given song so sometimes they'd cut the mono and the stereo "master" at the same time. Other tapes were done with the band on two-tracks and the vocals on the third. He might be a good person to talk to... feel free to say I sent you along!

Retromedia Sound Studios

I want to say there's a bit on them in the Tom Dowd movie as well but I may be imagining that. It's a GREAT piece in it's own right anyway... mandatory viewing IMO.

Tom Dowd and the Language of Music - Home

[Rick Sutton]

The Ampex 300-3 track was fairly common. There is an Ampex historical forum on the web that you could look up and ask the people there.

[themaidsroom]

Originally Posted by moracspace

Its seems to me that the 3 track didnt get more than a few good years of practical use.Thats not very long for a important piece of gear to stay around.

i disagree
a couple of things: the majority of the capitol era of frank sinatra - a tremendous
catalog of recorded work - when 3 track sounded great, it sounded pretty great to my ears. fatter than
2" 16 track and usually the end result of truly great recording rooms,
microphones and most importantly, players, singers, engineers, and songs.....i think the three
track intersects america's brightest musical hour - it was also the vehicle that was
used by owen bradley for patsy cline and roy orbison - the recent roy orbison vinyl
reisuues sound incredible and fortunately they are 100% analog - the sound of
1959-1960 three track is incredible.


be well

- jack

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Ken Paul

2 posts and you're dissing people on the board already. Perhaps you might go to the library at whatever pillar of academia your parents are paying to babysit your arrogant ass and check out the books first. You might be surprised to learn that three track recorders exist to this day. We just record SMPTE on the center track... At any rate good luck with your research and your people skills.

Ken Paul
Kengineering

Wow, I was thinking just the opposite. He came here and asked a question like everyone else here does and got told to shut up, basically. A welcome to the forums might have been a better approach.

And then, instead of getting mad at the response, which I would have done, he remained nice and civil in his follow up.

Welcome bensonstankut.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by themaidsroom

i disagree
a couple of things: the majority of the capitol era of frank sinatra - a tremendous
catalog of recorded work - when 3 track sounded great, it sounded pretty great to my ears. fatter than
2" 16 track and usually the end result of truly great recording rooms,
microphones and most importantly, players, singers, engineers, and songs.....i think the three
track intersects america's brightest musical hour - it was also the vehicle that was
used by owen bradley for patsy cline and roy orbison - the recent roy orbison vinyl
reisuues sound incredible and fortunately they are 100% analog - the sound of
1959-1960 three track is incredible.


be well

- jack

If I am not mistaken, 'Kind Of Blue' was recorded in such an arrangement on such a machine, back in 1959. And it holds up pretty good me thinks.

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Wow, I was thinking just the opposite. He came here and asked a question like everyone else here does and got told to shut up, basically. A welcome to the forums might have been a better approach.

And then, instead of getting mad at the response, which I would have done, he remained nice and civil in his follow up.

Welcome bensonstankut.

I thought the tone and the attack on spelling were a bit much for a noob. I'm guilty of dyslexic typing all the time. But your point is taken.

Welcome to the board bensonstankut.

-kp

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by yrplace

Brian Wilson used three track through 1965 at Western, Goldstar , Sunset and other studios in LA. Goldstar didn't get a 4 track until late 66 or early 67, but Western had them by 1966. BTW it cost extra to record on 4 track in those days......

I have a 3 and 4 track playback stack for my ATR-104 deck which we use for archival playbacks of The Beach Boys and other artist's tapes.

Mark Linett

Is the three track stack custom or was that available for those machines at the time?

-kp

[Paul Hammond]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I remember seeing Ampex half inch three tracks - 400 series, 300 series, and that the third or middle track width was narrower than the two outside stereo tracks. I saw the heads and that was the case. The reason being is that it was for synchronization via pilot tone to film. That is what I always understood those machines to be for, and this was passed along to me from a very knowledgeable expert. As far as using that track for audio, from what I've read on this post, it seems to have been done, but this was before sel sync, no? At any rate, great post, brings back awesome old memories from a place in time that is very cherished. Makes me want to fire up my old 1/2 inch ampex 350 tube two track! Cheers, PH

[Sigma]

Cameo Parkway had 3 track machines in the early 1960's

they cut the a lot of hits on them ..Bobby Rydell, Chubby Checker

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by Paul Hammond

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I remember seeing Ampex half inch three tracks - 400 series, 300 series, and that the third or middle track width was narrower than the two outside stereo tracks. I saw the heads and that was the case. The reason being is that it was for synchronization via pilot tone to film. That is what I always understood those machines to be for, and this was passed along to me from a very knowledgeable expert. As far as using that track for audio, from what I've read on this post, it seems to have been done, but this was before sel sync, no? At any rate, great post, brings back awesome old memories from a place in time that is very cherished. Makes me want to fire up my old 1/2 inch ampex 350 tube two track! Cheers, PH

I remember seeing a 400 series once and was told the same thing. That they recorded pilot tones on the center track. We had a Sony APR5003 ar Studio A in Detroit in the Mid 80's that carried SMPTE on the center track and had a built in chase synchronizer. They later came out with a conversion kit that allowed us to switch between 1/2" stereo and 3 track.

Ken Paul
Kengineering

[nicpope]

According to Frank Zappa's autobiography Studio Z had a three track recorder.

[Bob Olhsson]

My understanding is that for the most part the majors used three track as a backup to a mono master mix in case the recording engineer lost the lead vocal ride. Our first 3 track hit at Motown was "Please Mr. Postman" in 1961 however we were overdubbing like mad.

Here's some of the best info. Dave was Ampex's New York dealer.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Ken Paul

I remember seeing a 400 series once and was told the same thing. That they recorded pilot tones on the center track. We had a Sony APR5003 ar Studio A in Detroit in the Mid 80's that carried SMPTE on the center track and had a built in chase synchronizer. They later came out with a conversion kit that allowed us to switch between 1/2" stereo and 3 track.

Ken Paul
Kengineering

Doubt that the 400 was ever anything but mono. 440 is a different beast and probably what you are referring to. I had a 300 1/2" three track and I'm pretty sure all three tracks were equal size. "Center track" machines were a different animal.
Over the years I've seen Ampexes, both from the factory and customized, that have just about every head configuration imaginable for all kinds of purposes.

[Paul Hammond]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

My understanding is that for the most part the majors used three track as a backup to a mono master mix in case the recording engineer lost the lead vocal ride. Our first 3 track hit at Motown was "Please Mr. Postman" in 1961 however we were overdubbing like mad.

Here's some of the best info. Dave was Ampex's New York dealer.

Thanks Bob Olhsson - You Rock. I feel somewhat vindicated, somewhat.... ;-) PH

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

Doubt that the 400 was ever anything but mono. 440 is a different beast and probably what you are referring to. I had a 300 1/2" three track and I'm pretty sure all three tracks were equal size.

Thanks Rick, it was a 440.

-kp

[Rick Sutton]

Hey Ken,
I meant to quote Paul as he brought up the 400 first but I goofed a little. Anyway not many people have ever actually experienced the 400 or even know it existed so I tend to jump into the fray when the 440 is called a 400 series. I've seen the occassional 400 on Ebay and I pity the poor unsuspecting buyer that thinks he might be getting a classic! The 440 was a fine machine while the 400 was a boat anchor.
Cheers,
Rick

[Ken Paul]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

My understanding is that for the most part the majors used three track as a backup to a mono master mix in case the recording engineer lost the lead vocal ride. Our first 3 track hit at Motown was "Please Mr. Postman" in 1961 however we were overdubbing like mad.

Here's some of the best info. Dave was Ampex's New York dealer.

Bob,

Were those machines the Ampex 350 series? I remember seeing a pile of chassis and parts from those machines in the basement at United Sound in Detroit. I was told some of them had originally come from Motown.

-kp

[Paul Hammond]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

Hey Ken,
I meant to quote Paul as he brought up the 400 first but I goofed a little. Anyway not many people have ever actually experienced the 400 or even know it existed so I tend to jump into the fray when the 440 is called a 400 series. I've seen the occassional 400 on Ebay and I pity the poor unsuspecting buyer that thinks he might be getting a classic! The 440 was a fine machine while the 400 was a boat anchor.
Cheers,
Rick

True, True, Rick. I don't know if I've ever even seen a half inch 400 series Ampex! Maybe? 400 series Ampex seemed like a tape transport disaster waiting to happen didn't it? Anyway, I promise not to bring up the dreaded AG-350, another one the unsuspecting ebayer can get burned on! Cheers, PH

[Bob Olhsson]

Those were film recorders. Jimmy originally built United as a film soundstage and had lots of film-oriented tape gear much of which was never installed. The two Motown three tracks were homebrew and as far as I know were sent to California before being returned to the museum.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Paul Hammond

400 series Ampex seemed like a tape transport disaster waiting to happen didn't it? Anyway, I promise not to bring up the dreaded AG-350, another one the unsuspecting ebayer can get burned on! Cheers, PH

Paul,
Yes, the 400 was a disaster and unfortunately I experienced it first hand!
As many Ampexes as I had over the years I luckily dodged the AG-350! I did have an AG-300, though one expert told me that no such machine ever existed. When I was at Ampex in Redwood City years later I found an official AG-300 manual so I figured I wasn't hallucinating!
All the best,
Rick

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

Paul,
Yes, the 400 was a disaster and unfortunately I experienced it first hand!
As many Ampexes as I had over the years I luckily dodged the AG-350! I did have an AG-300, though one expert told me that no such machine ever existed. When I was at Ampex in Redwood City years later I found an official AG-300 manual so I figured I wasn't hallucinating!
All the best,
Rick

we had 300's used them plugged into a VCO for a vari speedable pre delay for the EMT's

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Sigma

we had 300's used them plugged into a VCO for a vari speedable pre delay for the EMT's

Hey Mike,
That's one heck of a huge pre-delay unit! Big, fat tone

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Rick Sutton

Hey Mike,
That's one heck of a huge pre-delay unit! Big, fat tone

it was pretty awesome..except i was the assistant..during mixes i had to make sure the tape was wound back so you didn't lose the pre delay in the middle of a take

you had to time it right as mixes would start then stop at whim because our engineers were taught from the "get it in a single cohesive pass" school rather than" stop and edit"

it was kinda tough

if you ever ran out that would be the "man that take was great we'll never do it the same again" :crysign: