Home Production and Questions about getting an 1176

[neve1073]

Hi Richard and Thanks for taking time to hang out here with us. This is a real treat. I only know a small portion of your discography, but your work with tom petty, is topshelf in my cd collection.

Here is my situation followed with some questions that I think some others here can relate to:

I am a guitarist and have recorded as a sideman to songwriters in worldclass studios. Unfortunately, I should have paid MORE attention to what the engineers and producers were doing than I did.

I have a "straight" job now since I got married last year, and have all but retired from the touring and studio work. So now I have started writing my own songs and recording demos on my DAW at home. The idea is to craft some good songs then take a smoking rhythm section into a real studio, lay down basics to tape and then dump the results into my DAW to overdub at home. When the overdubbing is done, I will take my DAW back to a real studio for mixing and mastering.

I want my front end signal chain to be as good as posssible, mainly for recording vox, acoustic guitar and lots of different vintage tubeamps.

After reading about how you worked with Tom Petty, I'm thinking that I NEED an 1176 as part of my front end. At the moment my front end signal chain is mic(cmv563, km184, sm57, royer121) to preamp (either 1073, v76 or tg2) and to DAW. I'm happy with the sounds, but it could be better and I'm thinking a good limiter may well be the last link in the chain that I need. I've never worked hands on with an 1176. How should I go about choosing one? What do you think of the reissues? What do you think of the clones (eg purple)? If I go vintage (always my inclination), which revision should I go for and how will I know I've got a good one given my lack of experience?

Sorry for the autobiography. I just wanted to explain my position: professional musician, AMATEUR engineer with lots to learn. I know most other gearslutz are professional engineers, but I know there are a few other greenhorns like me who are working on their project studios.

Thanks for any help!

PS I'll take advice from anyone else on this too.

[neve1073]

Richard, thanks for your feedback on the various 1176s. Renting is a great a idea--so obvious I dont know why I didn't think of it!

And, believe it or not, I have been thinking seriously about getting a tape machine for overdubbing but everyone else I've mentioned this to has told me it's a crazy idea. "Not practical." "A huge pain in the ass." "Use a tape saturation plugin." Etcetera. So thanks for the suggestion; it's encouraging.

[Kestral]

A rev B, like this one? (My new toy :D )

[jbuntz]

Originally posted by Richard
I don't like the reissues or clones of the 1176, I do like the reissue LA2. As you may come to realize, I don't use an 1176 for subtle work, there are many good 'boxes' that do subtle very well (a fader being the most transparent and flexible).
"Ask not what your limiter can do for you, rather what you need a limiter for!' A tape machine may be a better investment for a tonal change. Given that you are using a DAW you can afford to record via tape and 'timeslip' back into sync (record on 2 tracks if you need to punch in, listen to the direct and end up, if it is better, with the tape track).
If you are sure that you want to buy an 1176, rent first, ask for a rev c or d. If you like the c, as I do, try to save a little cash and get the older 1176 rev b, blue stripe. It is not LN (low noise) but it is my understanding that it is an available mod. Should you feel the need.

I've noticed the reissue being slightly cleaner and brighter than the original but the compression seemed pretty on to me. What differences have you noticed?

[Remoteness]

Richard,

I'm a big fan of vintage 1176LNs & 1178s...

I've found that not all 1176s are created equally within their model #'s. IMO, finding two or more that sound similar has been a task. Have you found it difficult to match multiple units sonically or does it not matter to you?

[e-cue]

Originally posted by neve1073
How should I go about choosing one? What do you think of the reissues? What do you think of the clones (eg purple)? If I go vintage (always my inclination), which revision should I go for and how will I know I've got a good one given my lack of experience?

Sorry for the autobiography. I just wanted to explain my position: professional musician, AMATEUR engineer with lots to learn. I know most other gearslutz are professional engineers, but I know there are a few other greenhorns like me who are working on their project studios.

Thanks for any help!

PS I'll take advice from anyone else on this too.

Awesome post. You listed your background and everything to really understand where you are at.

I'm not RD but I'll take a stab.

Recently, at least in my circles, there's been a quest for "vintage" 1st runs of the 1176's,and I mean pre-LN versions. I loathe them. They are decent distortion boxes but less useful in real world situations. I highly recomend you try a DISTRESSOR. I prefer them to 1176's and 1178's. Each engineer/producer/guitarist is different, so your question is simliar to asking Van Gohn what color to paint Sunflowers with, but a Distressor is a great place to start.

Worst case: you buy one, don't like it, and sell it for equal market value. Anyone that's done recalls with rental 1176's understands how different each unit can sound.

Also, and I'll probably catch hell for this, I used to pass signal through the 1176 without compressing/limiting at all. A very similar sound [to me] is the Flamingo mic pre in "iron" mode. If you are searching for tone without dynamic alteration, mosdef, checka check the Cranesong unit out.

Goodluck.

[Kestral]

1176's definitely sound different.

We're just making tails for the "new" rev B, we're going to compare it to the rev B that's already in our studio. The one already in the studio has been completely re-capped whereas the "new" one is all original, we're going to do an A/B on them.

For vocals, the rev B is simply amazing, whereas for guitar, my studio partner prefers the rev F.

I've seen the Distressors, they look and sound very nice (or not nice depending on how you set it).

However, I find it too complicated - boxes that give me too many options end up turning into mental clutter for me. I think Brian Eno said something about the role of a producer being to limit options since in a studio, options are virtually unlimited. Of course, keep in mind my idea of a "perfect" guitar pedal is an old script logo MXR Phase 90 - only one knob and every setting sounds good - that's how all gear should be imo, and as far as compressors go, the 1176 is about as close as you can get (at least until the LA2A arrives :D )

[shangoe]

no votes for the purple here? i thought they are pretty usefull....

[pramrod]

Yes- the purple- constistent! they just rock. period. i have a pair that are in use everyday here. i'd like a bunch more please. best- pram

[neve1073]

Originally posted by Richard
They may be thinking that you intend to get a multitrack... don't do it.
get the best 2 track you can afford and give double duty, you can mix to it also!
You'd better buy some tape pretty fast too

Thanks for clarifying that Richard. This analog tape thing is really weird. I almost feel like I did after 9/11. "What's happened to my world?" It's apocalyptic.
But I'm exagerating of course. Someone HAS to start manufacturing it again.

[Kestral]

Originally posted by neve1073
Someone HAS to start manufacturing it again.

Somewhere in the distance, Atlas is Shrugging.

[neve1073]

Originally posted by e-cue
I highly recomend you try a DISTRESSOR. I prefer them to 1176's and 1178's. Each engineer/producer/guitarist is different, so your question is simliar to asking Van Gohn what color to paint Sunflowers with, but a Distressor is a great place to start.

Hey e-cue, thanks for your post! I will try a distressor--a friend has one, and probably a few other limiters too depending on how patient the vendors are with me demoing the units. I'd like to check out the purple and the chandler, and I'd really like to check the mercury out. Dave Marquette is doing some work for me now on my v76 so I may ask him about that. But the price of the mercury would be a bit of a reach for me...in fact, my wife would cut my balls off.

I know I've tracked thru 1176s before and been very happy with the final results (again I wish I'd paid attn to settings and revision models etc), plus RD is an 1176 master so I had to ask his opinion. But, as unassailable as his work is, I have to find my own sound....so I will be trying out some stuff.

E-Cue, what do you think of the 1176 LNs?

Thanks

[e-cue]

Originally posted by neve1073
E-Cue, what do you think of the 1176 LNs?

Thanks

I don't really like the silverface ones (The one post blackface, and even the blue stripe ones) as much as the blackface. I like the tone of the blackface units and they are great for twack and grab. I like them most on drums, but have used them on almost everything at some point. I hear/see a lot of people over-using the "all buttons" mode.

I'd like to ping pong this over to Richard and ask him what he prefers in the Blue Stripe units over the others.

[neve1073]

Can you guys recommend a place for renting 1176s et al?

Cheers

[gogo]

Originally posted by Richard
...looks of horror from the squeamish!

That’s funny... "all in" always "looks" like I’m going to break it.

Richard, being the 1176 nut that you are... how about the LA2A? Do you use them? when, where, etc.?

[neve1073]

Originally posted by Richard
speak to Rolfe at Blackbird
615 467 4487. Tell him what you want them for and that I suggested it, and he'll ship them out (but not free alas!).

www.blackbirdaudiorentals.com

Cheers Richard. Nice website. I don't see the 1176s listed but I'll give 'em a call.

[Waylon]

Ecue - the 1176 is one of the coolest EQs ever made.

The comment about the squeamish is brilliant, how many times have I looked at the GR meter on an 1176 and thought I should back it off? I usually don’t leave the meter in GR now; just give it a listen....

The problem with reissues/ distressors/ different revisions is that while they are all cool, they are not the same as whatever original we used and wanted. I have used particular 1176 that comes to mind when I think of what an 1176 sounds like, and unless I am working with that specific comp, all the other ones seem like a compromise. A great compromise, but not the same as THE ONE. Its the same reason that I think plug in manufacturers shouldn’t try and emulate gear.. The Purple audio MC77 plug in a great software compressor, but it is no 1176........

[Kestral]

Originally posted by Richard
if the bass guitar need compression, the LA2 usually comes to the rescue.
Sometimes vocals.

Richard, I've heard of people using an 1176 to compress the vocals and then running that through an LA2A as well. Have you tried that and if so, what are you thoughts?

[jonnyclueless]

Are the rev a & b all tht noisey that one would want to make a mod?

[Waylon]

Originally posted by jonnyclueless
Are the rev a & b all tht noisey that one would want to make a mod?

when you realize that you can bend the GR needle and still ahve it sound good on a "proper" 1176 , yeah, the units self noise can become an issue...

[gogo]

A little 1176 history.

[Kestral]

Here's another link for 1176 history:
http://www.nrgrecording.de/html/history.html

[gogo]

Originally posted by Richard
I've done it many times, to be just a little picky, I use the 1176 as a limiter mostly, mind you, at the amounts we're talking about there must also be some compression going on.

Does that mean LA2 to compress > into an 1176 (20:1) to limit peaks?

Is that how you use both?

[wwest]

Originally posted by Richard
I like the added distortion and grain of the older rev a & b.
I'll sneak a little tip in here. I prefer to use the 20:1 and 4:1 buttons pushed simultaneously.
I understand from the 'experts' that it is the same as all buttons in. Try it, let me know please........

I just went around on this about a month ago on another forum.

I think this sums it up quite well........

"The effect is activated by pressing the first and last ratio switch. Anyone who claims that the sound is different by pressing all four is either deaf, insane or has some really dirty switch contacts. (Look at the schematic, the intermediate switch resistors are shorted by pressing the 1st and 4th switches).

The meter responds differently because the FET bias is being changed dramatically and it is at this point in the circuit that the meter driver signal is derived. It is not accurately displaying the actual gain reduction due to the DC offset on the meter.

The other effect is that the sidechain is getting about 6db more signal than normal.


To sum up:

FET Q-point changed

Sidechain 6dB more sensitive

Metering ****ed"

[neve1073]

How can you tell what revision 1176 you are looking at?

I'm looking at a picture of the back of one. I'm guessing it's the letter following the serial number, right?

Another question: what are some of the technical reasons behind the inconsistency of 1176s? Is a vintage 1176's lack of mojo something that can be fixed by a good tech?

[jonnyclueless]

You go by the SN#

Rev A: 101-125

Rev AB: 125-216

Rev B: 217-1078

Rev C: 1079-1238

Rev D: 1239-2331

Rev E: 2332-2611

Rev F: 2611-7052

Rev G: 7053-7651

Rev H: 7652+ (Silver face)

As you can see, there are only 2331 of the really good 1176's (debatably).

[teknopro]

Originally posted by neve1073
Cheers Richard. Nice website. I don't see the 1176s listed but I'll give 'em a call.

Rolff here! (correct spelling)
I guess it was you that called and asked about the revisions. Our tech and I looked through the UREI Manuals to discover actual revisions. There is a difference and the 1176LN is the first C revision. Without the drawings infront of me I am not certain, but think there was a transistor added around the E revision. The only way to physically tell is to open one up and look at the board. Some had the letter on them and some did not. Not sure why, but the easy way is just to look at the guts and compare it to the drawings. Hope that helps!
What a great forum!

Rolff @ Blackbird

By the way....the 1176 is now on the website. We're adding all the time! Thanks for looking!

[neve1073]

Hey thanks Rolff.
I will call you early next week.

Jason

[max cooper]

Somewhere in the distance, Atlas is Shrugging.

Who is John Lennon?

[mikey]

Richard do you know if any of the older ''KIND'' 1176's came with XLR inputs and output or was that added on later