As a producer, how important is it to be a good engineer?

[mbradzick]

Just have to ask since I think the roles are changing. Is the lone producer giving way to the engineer/producer as more and more small/home studios crop up?

[Kiwiburger]

If you can't engineer at a reasonable level, you are screwed. I guess if you have enough money to throw at a turn-key operation, you could get by with little engineering. And if you are both incredibly talented and incredibly lucky, you could get away with being relatively incompetent.

But expect to be cleaned up by your competitors who know how to read a manual and defrag a hard-drive and fix ground-loop hums and earthing problems ...

It's not easy.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

If you can't engineer at a reasonable level, you are screwed.

That pretty much sums it up... You have to be a somewhat competent engineer in this day and age to be a producer.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

That pretty much sums it up... You have to be a somewhat competent engineer in this day and age to be a producer.

That's what I thought. Just checking!

[Daystar]

I think there are 3 kind of producers :
the ones that came from the music .
the ones that came from engineering.
the ones that came from the Artistic side .

But engineering is very important this days . but I think you can still be a good producer if you know how to make the right desicions.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Daystar

I think there are 3 kind of producers :
the ones that came from the music .
the ones that came from engineering.
the ones that came from the Artistic side .

But engineering is very important this days . but I think you can still be a good producer if you know how to make the right desicions.

Except some of those (quite a few...) decisions are anchored in engineering knowledge. So if you don't have any you're still screwed, at the very least because you couldn't even communicate to your engineer what you're going for soundwise + you'd find he'd have a hard time respecting you if you don't know what you're talking about.

Some delegate more than others, but a solid base you can't do without.

[Tony Shepperd]

It's not important to be a great engineer, but it's important to have an understanding of what good engineering should sound like.
Quincy Jones is not a great engineer, but he knows what great engineering should sound like.

[Kenny Gioia]

You guys are nuts!!!!

Or am I mis-reading the question?

Engineering is not only completely un-important it actually gets in the way.

I wish I didn't know how to do it.

To be a successful producer, your most important skill is being able to communicate with people.

Getting performances out of those people, networking to get gigs etc.

There are tons of great engineers who just can't talk to people. They starve.

Only an engineer would think a great producer needs to be an engineer also.

Can Steve Jobs develop an OS?

Can Oprah lay out a magazine?

Can Donald Trump really build a building?

[Infernal Device]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

You guys are nuts!!!!

Or am I mis-reading the question?

Engineering is not only completely un-important it actually gets in the way.

I wish I didn't know how to do it.

To be a successful producer, your most important skill is being able to communicate with people.

Getting performances out of those people, networking to get gigs etc.

There are tons of great engineers who just can't talk to people. They starve.

Only an engineer would think a great producer needs to be an engineer also.

Can Steve Jobs develop an OS?

Can Oprah lay out a magazine?

Can Donald Trump really build a building?

It is true. A good sales pitch beats a good skill every time. I know a "producer" who does not know which end of the mic to sing into, cannot turn on any gear, cannot tell the difference between a u47 or a sm57, cannot set a tempo for a band, or even do anything else.

He makes $500-600 a day and is booked for months. It is all about the name dropping and sales pitch. Sucks, but that is reality. The only skill he actually has is playing guitar and making every song thrown at him sound like every song he has ever done before.

[davedarling]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Only an engineer would think a great producer needs to be an engineer also.

very funny, and very true.
In Los Angeles, producers are split between musicians, artists/ex artists , engineers,and songwriters. In that order of frequency IMO.


I would imagine that this changes in different locations, and of course there's the debate about "what a producer is"

DD

[strewnshank]

Engineering sometimes gets in the way of producing for me. I forget to put the producer hat back on, concentrate too much on the internal affairs of the engineering and forget to focus on the big picture. Normally a 10 minute break fixes this for me.

[audiomichael]

There are producers who are super-natural communicators, like Rick Ruben, who don't even need to get off the couch. There are producers who are such good engineers like Terry Date, that he could probably produce a kick-ass rock record with a bunch of monkeys.

But for most of us, if you can't do it all, you're only holding yourself back. I would be horribly frustrated if I had to rely on an engineer all the time to realize my vision. Isn't a producer who can't engineer and isn't a musician is really an A&R guy in disguise?

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

There are producers who are super-natural communicators, like Rick Ruben, who don't even need to get off the couch. There are producers who are such good engineers like Terry Date, that he could probably produce a kick-ass rock record with a bunch of monkeys.

But for most of us, if you can't do it all, you're only holding yourself back. I would be horribly frustrated if I had to rely on an engineer all the time to realize my vision. Isn't a producer who can't engineer and isn't a musician is really an A&R guy in disguise?

That's what I'm thinking.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

But for most of us, if you can't do it all, you're only holding yourself back. I would be horribly frustrated if I had to rely on an engineer all the time to realize my vision.

Most of us? Do you want to stand out or be most of us?

I think you're holding yourself back as a Producer if you're engineering all the time.

Originally Posted by audiomichael

Isn't a producer who can't engineer and isn't a musician is really an A&R guy in disguise?

No. He's a record producer. Hence the different titles.

What do you call a movie director who doesn't hold the camera?

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

What do you call a movie director who doesn't hold the camera?

A director, but you better believe he held many, many cameras throughout film school and can shoot a movie, edit it, edit the sound, help choose sounds for scenes, record sound, choose lens filters and interface with the production company to realize the overall vision.

Anyone can walk into a room and call themselves a producer. Some are glorified engineers. Some are songwriters. Some are complete wannabes. I'm asking in this day and age, in order to generate money producing records, how much engineering skill do you need? Glenn Ballard said he hates to engineer while producing but he does it if he has to and knows how.

[zboy2854]

I think it depends on whether the question is in regards to a producer just starting out today, or in general. If you're just starting out today, it's much more difficult, though not impossible to be just a producer, as you would still need to find yourself a good engineer or team to surround yourself with. And given that there are so many talented hybrid guys out there these days (producer/engineer/writer/musician), it's tougher to compete if you can't bring the same arsenal of talents and abilities to the table.

If the question is, is it important to be an engineer to be a good producer in general, then the answer is an unequivocal NO. Guys like Rick Rubin, Quincy Jones, George Martin, etc., have unequivocally proven that. They have shown that to be a great producer in general, one simply needs great musical sensibilities, as well as knowing to surround yourself with great supporting crew (engineers, musicians, etc.) to handle the duties that they either can't or don't want to distract themselves with.

[nostudio]

Originally Posted by Infernal Device

He makes $500-600 a day and is booked for months. It is all about the name dropping and sales pitch. Sucks, but that is reality. The only skill he actually has is playing guitar and making every song thrown at him sound like every song he has ever done before.

I know the type!

[travisbrown]

There are a few people who can pull it off. Your musical direction and euphonic sensibility have to outpace any lack of engineering experience, and I'd think you'd usually find an engineer who understands well the direction you give and who can take initiative to achieve your vision.

I presume Alison Krauss doesn't have much engineering experience. She's made enough excellent albums though. She did a great job producing two excellent Nickel Creek albums. Of course, these albums are performance driven, not production gloss.

I'm sure there are lots of examples like this.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by zboy2854

I think it depends on whether the question is in regards to a producer just starting out today, or in general. If you're just starting out today, it's much more difficult, though not impossible to be just a producer, as you would still need to find yourself a good engineer or team to surround yourself with. And given that there are so many talented hybrid guys out there these days (producer/engineer/writer/musician), it's tougher to compete if you can't bring the same arsenal of talents and abilities to the table.

If the question is, is it important to be an engineer to be a good producer in general, then the answer is an unequivocal NO. Guys like Rick Rubin, Quincy Jones, George Martin, etc., have unequivocally proven that. They have shown that to be a great producer in general, one simply needs great musical sensibilities, as well as knowing to surround yourself with great supporting crew (engineers, musicians, etc.) to handle the duties that they either can't or don't want to distract themselves with.

Yeah but George Martin helped developed EQs that are still in use today!

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

Yeah but George Martin helped developed EQs that are still in use today!

George Martin had nothing to do directly with it. Whatever technical developments that were achieved under his watch were thanks to Geoff Emerick and Ken Scott, the actual engineers for the Beatles, as well as the technical staff at Abbey Road. At best, Martin was the guy who said, "we need such and such", and then the engineers would go about figuring out how to make it happen.

And it still doesn't have anything to do with the concept of being a good producer. Again, Rick Rubin is considered one of the great producers of our time, and he never touches a single knob, and probably wouldn't know what to do with it even if he did.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

Just have to ask since I think the roles are changing. Is the lone producer giving way to the engineer/producer as more and more small/home studios crop up?

No a producer is a producer, except the need to know how protools works becuase it affects process and file management.

Things like hoq quick punch works and playlists, because they may affect how you go abour recording. You also need to know how protools manages files, how to consolidate and the differences betwe "save as" and "save a copy as".

As the producer your taking responsibility for the big picture and those are examples of things that you need to know to inform your decision making process and to deliver the mixand and unmixed masters to whoever is payng you.

I can see how someone might call that being an engineer, really it's not.

[sahiaman]

My brother when he first got a job as an engineer(a design engineer in the auto industry) was told to work in a manufacturing plant so he can learn what the limitations of the tooling machines were. Basicly what is possible on paper is not possible or practicial in real life. So knowing how to design for the machines in more efficient and cost saving.

I think the same applies to audio engineering and producing. There are certain things a producer needs to know about the engineering processor and what the machines are capable of doing in order to cut costs and focus on the end product more.

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

You guys are nuts!!!!

Or am I mis-reading the question?

Engineering is not only completely un-important it actually gets in the way.

I wish I didn't know how to do it.

To be a successful producer, your most important skill is being able to communicate with people.

Getting performances out of those people, networking to get gigs etc.

There are tons of great engineers who just can't talk to people. They starve.

Only an engineer would think a great producer needs to be an engineer also.

Can Steve Jobs develop an OS?

Can Oprah lay out a magazine?

Can Donald Trump really build a building?

I agree. I used to work with this producer ( RIP) that was a great musician/songwiter but was sorta limited in the engineering side. He had a great ear and arrangement/communication skills. He didn't liKe getting into the gear/technology side. He always used to say " That's what I've got you for!...

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

I'm asking in this day and age, in order to generate money producing records, how much engineering skill do you need?

Absolutely none!!!

Find a great engineer. Partner up with him/her. 50/50 split.

You get the gigs and produce and let him/her do the technical stuff. It's a win/win and you will become a better producer for it.

They're different skill sets. You don't learn one (necessarily) by doing the other. Although a lot have.

Originally Posted by zboy2854

If the question is, is it important to be an engineer to be a good producer in general, then the answer is an unequivocal NO. Guys like Rick Rubin, Quincy Jones, George Martin, etc., have unequivocally proven that. They have shown that to be a great producer in general, one simply needs great musical sensibilities, as well as knowing to surround yourself with great supporting crew (engineers, musicians, etc.) to handle the duties that they either can't or don't want to distract themselves with.

Exactly!!!!!!

And these "musical sensibilities" are tough to think about while you're watching input levels.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by Snatchman

I agree. I used to work with this producer ( RIP) that was a great musician/songwiter but was sorta limited in the engineering side. He had a great ear and arrangement/communication skills. He didn't liKe getting into the gear/technology side. He always used to say " That's what I've got you for!...

I agree with all of this "producer doesn't need to engineer" talk but in today's day and age, is it necessary to engineer and produce and mix and co-write or whatever to be in the game or at least start out?

I play a variety of instruments, know the basics of recording, write songs and know how to mix. Does that automatically make me a great producer? No. Does it help in communicating with pro musicians and engineers better than saying "ummm....uhhh.....play with that little knob there...yeah...the one that looks like a skateboard ramp...yeah...I want it to sound bassy-er..."

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by sahiaman

My brother when he first got a job as an engineer(a design engineer in the auto industry) was told to work in a manufacturing plant so he can learn what the limitations of the tooling machines were. Basicly what is possible on paper is not possible or practicial in real life. So knowing how to design for the machines in more efficient and cost saving.

I think the same applies to audio engineering and producing. There are certain things a producer needs to know about the engineering processor and what the machines are capable of doing in order to cut costs and focus on the end product more.

But those are two technical jobs.

Being a great record producer is much more about creativity. Something that technology can destroy. Let the limitations be figured out by the technical people. I want it to sound like "this". Don't cage my thoughts into what can be done. It's all possible.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

I agree with all of this "producer doesn't need to engineer" talk but in today's day and age, is it necessary to engineer and produce and mix and co-write or whatever to be in the game or at least start out?

If you can find a client who will hire you, then no, you don't need to be engineer/cowrite/mix/get coffee too. It's as simple as that.

If you can bring other skills to the table and show that your lack of engineering experience doesn't outweigh these assets, then sure.

The more you can do, the easier it is, though.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Snatchman

I agree. I used to work with this producer ( RIP) that was a great musician/songwiter but was sorta limited in the engineering side. He had a great ear and arrangement/communication skills. He didn't liKe getting into the gear/technology side. He always used to say " That's what I've got you for!...

And he was completely right. It takes many people to create great things.

Try making a record all by yourself. Play everything. It can be done but it's not much fun and there will be weaknesses.

It's a left brain / right brain thing. Very few people can work in both at the same time. Very few.

I know I can't. My solution is to engineer as quickly as possible and then ignore that side while tracking. I can punch in and out without throwing myself off but I stop obsessing about the sound as soon as I get it. Then it's all about the performance.

It's still better with 2 people IMHO.

It's a shame that people think that not hiring an engineer is a cost saving measure. It doesn't save you any money if you take twice as long to make the record.

[zboy2854]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

I agree with all of this "producer doesn't need to engineer" talk but in today's day and age, is it necessary to engineer and produce and mix and co-write or whatever to be in the game or at least start out?

I play a variety of instruments, know the basics of recording, write songs and know how to mix. Does that automatically make me a great producer? No. Does it help in communicating with pro musicians and engineers better than saying "ummm....uhhh.....play with that little knob there...yeah...the one that looks like a skateboard ramp...yeah...I want it to sound bassy-er..."

In this day and age? No question it helps to have multiple skills, including engineering under your belt. So yes, for someone starting out today given the current environment, it is infinitely easier to get a foothold in the industry being a multiple threat.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Mitch97

I agree with all of this "producer doesn't need to engineer" talk but in today's day and age, is it necessary to engineer and produce and mix and co-write or whatever to be in the game or at least start out?

What is it about "this day and age" that requires one to thin down their strengths by trying to do everything themselves?