Drum Mic Kits

[GRiFF]

Hey,

Looks like I'll be re-locating my studio soon to a venue that has a live room. This will be good for recording real drums and with some imagination, entire bands.

Thing is I've been a backroom programmer for most of my music production life, so this is a whole other world.

I'm going to need some ideas of additional kit I'll need. I'm thinking of the Mackie Digital 24 Multi track - can't imagine my PC being up to it, and some ideas on the least amount of mics/outboard bits that you think you can get a nice recording with.

I guess it needs to be versatile, I'm not specialising in one kind of music style, good alrounders.

Without going crazy, what budget would you set aside to do this with? My mike collection is small '74 Neumann U87i, Shure SM58, SE2200 Condensor.

I guess I'm after a quality that I can charge for, so not cheap and nasty, but not la la land prices either.

Thanks as always

[Riad]

Originally posted by GRiFF
Hey,

Looks like I'll be re-locating my studio soon to a venue that has a live room. This will be good for recording real drums and with some imagination, entire bands.

Thing is I've been a backroom programmer for most of my music production life, so this is a whole other world.

I'm going to need some ideas of additional kit I'll need. I'm thinking of the Mackie Digital 24 Multi track - can't imagine my PC being up to it, and some ideas on the least amount of mics/outboard bits that you think you can get a nice recording with.

I guess it needs to be versatile, I'm not specialising in one kind of music style, good alrounders.

Without going crazy, what budget would you set aside to do this with? My mike collection is small '74 Neumann U87i, Shure SM58, SE2200 Condensor.

I guess I'm after a quality that I can charge for, so not cheap and nasty, but not la la land prices either.

Thanks as always

For drums I use:

D112 Outside Kick
D6 Inside Kick
421's on each tom (4 of them)
SM57 bottom snare
414 - or SM57 top snare
451 Stereo pair for overheads
Rode NTK room mic about 8' away


Mix to taste.

[GRiFF]

Thanks Riad

How much would that lot cost you? I reckon I could get most of those quite easily secondhand.

[Riad]

Originally posted by GRiFF
Thanks Riad

How much would that lot cost you? I reckon I could get most of those quite easily secondhand.

D112 - $200
D6 - $200
MD 421 II - $300 x 4 = $1200
451 stereo pair = $900
C414BXLII - $900 (this is very optional, you could use a$89 57)
SM57 - $89
Rode NTK - $500

Total: $4000 (of course you could save $800 by ommitting the 414).

Rob

[Telecastr]

here's what i would get in your situation..
Kick - Shure Beta 52 $190
Snare - Shure SM57 $90 - buy at least 2 or 3 to keep around (also will work on toms somtimes)
Toms - Sennheiser MD421 $330 get 3 or 4 of these, Sennheiser e604s are good too, you can get a 3 pack for like $300.
AKG D112 $200 - for floor tom or kick, although i think the beta 52 is almost always better on kick, a D112 is good to have for more options. it's also good on bass cabinet and even vocals sometimes.
as for OH, there are so many different options depending on what your going for. i'd get something you can switch polar patterns. i think M/S can be cool on OH. also, more importantly than using M/S for OH, this will give you more flexibility for using those same mics on other sources if you want to use them in onmi or bi. the 451s, while only cardioid i believe, are a good recommendation as well. you could also use 414s. Nuemman KM 84, 85, or 184 are all pretty good too. i'm sure someone else will chime in on their OH faves. i'm always changing them so i'm not entirely sure on my favorite yet. all those prices above are new prices so you could find them cheaper used. hope this helps.

[GRiFF]

Thats around £2000.00 in my currency and very reasonable.

I've a mackie 32/8 desk and as I said in the preamble am thinking of purchasing the Mackie HDR24 recorder which I'll then hook up to the PC - use the HDR for the live takes and then use the PC purely for additional production type stuff, soft synths, reverbs and probably all of the vocals and BVs

I've some outboard 2xCIB Neve strips which have pre-amp and compressors, but I reckon I'll need some other bits to.

Again, I want to keep the price reasonable and the quality upper mid end of budget, but what else am I going to need?

I guess extra DT100 headphones (I have two sets) and some way of feeding some monitor sources to any other musicians. I reckon I'd be looking at bands with 4 - 5 members.

Am I going to need compressors/gates etc or will I be able to find other work arounds and do this within the PC after the recording has been completed?

???

[GRiFF]

Telecastr, thanks for those ideas. Looks very do-able.

Any suggestions on what else I'm going to need? What did you realise was essential to have - beyond mics and headphones?

What do you think of the HDR Mackie Multi tracker?

[kudzu]

Saw the Arrangement window of the software of the HDR Mackie Multi tracker 4 the 1st time at a gig last week...looked really good. Know they're good value / v.reliable...don't no how good ADs r tho.

KM 184s 4 OHs
API 3124 pres 4 main drums (Bdrs / Sns)

Processing - SPL transient thingy....tried it yesterday....WOW

[brownmouse]

i'll play too... i would start with something like...
audix d6 or maybe a shure sm-91 (inside kik)
soundelux u-195 (outside kik)
shure sm-57 and/or beyer m-201 (snare)
aea r-84 (room/fok)
cad m-177 x?(toms)
josephson e22s or c42's (overheads)
joshua

[Telecastr]

Originally posted by GRiFF
Telecastr, thanks for those ideas. Looks very do-able.

Any suggestions on what else I'm going to need? What did you realise was essential to have - beyond mics and headphones?

What do you think of the HDR Mackie Multi tracker?

some API and/or Neve pres, as suggested above would do the trick. maybe a distressor or two for compression. 1176? it really just depends on what exactly you're doing. but al those things will work wonderfully, and also be useful for other things other than drums as well.

as far as the mackie hdr...i haven't used one in about 2 years and my ears have developed quite a bit since then. sorry i can't out much as far as sonic quality, but it was very reliable as i remember. never crashed on me.

[GRiFF]

Originally posted by Telecastr
some API and/or Neve pres, as suggested above would do the trick. maybe a distressor or two for compression. 1176? it really just depends on what exactly you're doing. but al those things will work wonderfully, and also be useful for other things other than drums as well.

as far as the mackie hdr...i haven't used one in about 2 years and my ears have developed quite a bit since then. sorry i can't out much as far as sonic quality, but it was very reliable as i remember. never crashed on me.

I guess there are plenty of things I could buy, I just wondered if there was a minimal amount I could get by with without coming across too lame for the kinds of bands that would use what will be a small studio with a some live space.

All the mic suggestions are great btw chaps! Remember tho this is a bang for buck request)

[Telecastr]

Originally posted by GRiFF
I guess there are plenty of things I could buy, I just wondered if there was a minimal amount I could get by with without coming across too lame for the kinds of bands that would use what will be a small studio with a some live space.

All the mic suggestions are great btw chaps! Remember tho this is a bang for buck request)

well if you're trying to get by with the bare minimum, i'm probably gonna get ripped on for this, but just use your mackie pres to start off with. get some mics first. as for mixing...are you going to be mixing on the mackie board or are you gonna fly the tracks onto a computer and mix ITB? if you are gonna mix on the mackie, do you have any outboard gear? if mixing on th mackie, you'll need some comps, gates, and a reverb or two. if you're gonna mix ITB, forget the outboard at first and do all the processing during mixing. after you've got more cashflow invest in more pres and outboard. i forgot to suggest dbx 160 before... great compressor and cheap too.

[GRiFF]

Originally posted by Telecastr
well if you're trying to get by with the bare minimum, i'm probably gonna get ripped on for this, but just use your mackie pres to start off with. get some mics first. as for mixing...are you going to be mixing on the mackie board or are you gonna fly the tracks onto a computer and mix ITB? if you are gonna mix on the mackie, do you have any outboard gear? if mixing on th mackie, you'll need some comps, gates, and a reverb or two. if you're gonna mix ITB, forget the outboard at first and do all the processing during mixing. after you've got more cashflow invest in more pres and outboard. i forgot to suggest dbx 160 before... great compressor and cheap too.

Yup, I'm sure to some the pres on the Mackie are a joke, but actually by rights these should be good enough at least in the beginning is what I'm thinking. Needs a good service mind you.

I have the 2 Amek CIBs for certain essentials, the kick and snare and of course, bass and guitars don't necessarily have to be recorded as the final takes so its really just the drums that I see causeing the most problems - and the act of managing 4-5 musicians who need to have different headphone mixes.

I wonder if I need to compress to the multi track on any of the drums (again kick and snare could be handled by the CIBs) or if there are any other processes that a decent quality, budget drum sound might require.

I'm planning to mix ITB - wondering how tricky or time consuming this will be assuming I've a session on with 4-5 guys breathing down my neck and I'll need to do a transfer of several tracks.

Once ITB I'll be back in home territory and feeling pretty cosy in that world, able to track the bass again and any overdubs and vocals one at a time. So its really, just the drums that I'm trying to work out a method for.

Aside from the mics and compressor req's I reckon its the little things that a) might add up cost wise b) I won't be able to live without...

plenty of headphone ext leads
plenty of headphones
di boxes?
Stands - with spare mic clips?
Drum keys?
Unforeseen other components for data transfer Mackie HDR - PC?

Whats the most over looked useful item you find you use alot of when recording a band?

cheers

[Telecastr]

Originally posted by GRiFF
Yup, I'm sure to some the pres on the Mackie are a joke, but actually by rights these should be good enough at least in the beginning is what I'm thinking. Needs a good service mind you.

I have the 2 Amek CIBs for certain essentials, the kick and snare and of course

i would use those for OH. if i'm limited on pres, i use the best pres i have on OH first, then Kick and Snare.

I wonder if I need to compress to the multi track on any of the drums...or if there are any other processes that a decent quality, budget drum sound might require.

if you need to compress, like i said above, a dbx 160 would be a good budget compressor. also look into an RNC. you're not gonna get any cheaper than that. both of those will fit into a small budget and be pieces of gear you will use long term. they're cheap, but good too.

I'm planning to mix ITB - wondering how tricky or time consuming this will be assuming I've a session on with 4-5 guys breathing down my neck and I'll need to do a transfer of several tracks.

i wouldn't transfer files while they are there unless you run out of tracks. since you're mainly concerned about drums in this situation that shouldn't be a problem.

Whats the most over looked useful item you find you use alot of when recording a band?

a great drummer with a great kit?? all the stuff you listed is good to have. also paper and pencil.

[Lawrence]

I use ...

Beta 52 - Kick (from 2" inside/behind the beater skin)
Sm57's Snare top and bottom
3 SM57's on toms (not the best choice but they work fine, need to add a little eq)
Octava MC-012's for OH's (cheap and very nice sounding)
AT 4050 set to omni and/or Rode NTK for room mics

Excluding the room mics this drum mic kit is very inexpensive and works well. The Octava's overhead makes 80% of the drum sound. Add a little of each mono for more snap, bump whatever.

I heard a kit miced with the Earthworks mics and it blew me away!

Lawrence

[GRiFF]

Originally posted by Telecastr
i wouldn't transfer files while they are there unless you run out of tracks. since you're mainly concerned about drums in this situation that shouldn't be a problem.

I'd be looking instead to sync up the hard disc recorder to the PC then, so I can work the vocal takes the way I'm used to - as well as use the soft synths and other programs I like.

Only thing is - I reckon the kind of sessions I might start off with in this new way, would probably mean tracking and mixing (rough mixing at least) in a day so they get something to take away - I may be forced to use my PC based packages.
Later its more likely the kinds of bands I'll work with will be more relaxed about their projects taking more time.

Do the transfers take a while then? Or is it that it can be quite awkward and stressful?

[GRiFF]

Hey Chaps,


Care to comment on these mics and if they are worth buying? A friend of mine is selling this little clutch for what seems a very cheap price.

Although I'm after a good deal, I don't want a 'cheap' drum sound
so, please advise whether these may soon fall by the wayside or if in fact they will serve me in the longer run.

Just to remind you, I'm after a good working, upper mid range budget sound that can grow in quality along with my engineering skills.

4 x Sennheiser MD 431-11
4 x AKG C1000s
5 x AKG C430 SA 40

ta

[stinkybuffalo]

patience, lots and lots of headphones, and the phrase, "i think you have a better take in you."

most essential element of any and every studio session is musicians. this doesn't mean people who play instruments, but people who actually care about understanding their instrument and how to get great sounds out of it. no signal chain in existence can make a crappy guitarist not bend his strings out of tune, or a drummer stay in the pocket, or a bass player play with groove, or a singer....well....I'm not even gonna go there.

Q: Are you going to do editing to the individual audio of say drums?

A: Yes...Then I would say stick with the HDR (maybe look into nicer AD/DA??) and work hard for money to buy a better mutlitrack. Eventually Radar or Protools HD.

No.....Buy an Alesis HD. The AD/DA rocks. Very musical and true to orignial analog signal. Also 1/3 the price of HDR.

The mics you mentioned I wouldn't get unless they are really really cheap....like free......

with drums position is more important than mic choice. I am not saying mic choice doesn't matter, just that placement can totally change the sound with same mic. PM me if you want my opinion on different pieces of the drums and my mic choice because I don't want to list everything here(would take too much space). I have expereience with about 250+ different mics on different pieces of the kit so i can at least give you some idea were I would start.

best of luck and the best way to conrtol a bands sound is to listen to them live before you record them to get an idea the difference is between what they do sound like and what they "think" they sound like.

[GRiFF]

Thanks SB,

I might need to PM you once I get in the studio space and start miking the kits.

So far then, I have the space, I have a mixing desk - at least good enough in the beginning. I have the mikes, I have the leads and the stands.

Is anything missing?

I'm still not sure what processing may need to take place during tracking. I'm hoping not very much, in fact - nothing.

I'll be doing the processing during the mix, ITB.

I can't recall if engineers like to compress and gate drums during recording, my common sense says this is probably a bad idea...maybe a small amount of compression on the kick and snare? 2:1 / 3:1?

[Telecastr]

Originally posted by GRiFF
I can't recall if engineers like to compress and gate drums during recording, my common sense says this is probably a bad idea...maybe a small amount of compression on the kick and snare? 2:1 / 3:1?

i wouldn't gate anything...maybe very small amounts of compression if you must. i prefer to do all that during mixing but sometimes it's neccesary during tracking too.

[stinkybuffalo]

I agree with telecaster. Don't gate and if possible save compressing for mixdown.

You should be ok processing wise while tracking.

Things you may or may not need:
Headphone distribution amp: Furman 6 channel.
Nice click track for drummer.
Music Stands.
Padded chairs without arms for guitarists while tracking.

Also you may want to do some noise tests in your new space. Set up a condenser out in the studio and run the preamp pretty hot to tape with no one out there. Just see what kind of noise floor you are dealing with and if there are any leak problems. Check different spots of the room with a friend talking into same mic and try to find the sweet spots for vocals (warm vs. thin), drums (boomy vs. dry), and bass traps that might exist where it would be better to put the bass or gtr amps when recording for more or less natural low end. Just popped in my head as something I would do if I were starting in a new place.

Again best of luck and fell free to PM about mic ideas, placement, and anything else you might have questions about. If I don't know I work with people who will.

[GRiFF]

Thanks Telecastr & SB,

SB, you bring up the issue of fold back.
I've been thinking about this. Initially as I've mentioned I'll be making use of my Mackie 32/8.

These come with just two headphone outs, which naturally means I'll only have two different foldback mixes that I can provide.

All this considered this is my plan to record a 5 piece:-
Drums, bass, vocals, 2xguitars.

Drums: Everything will centre around the drum takes. Use one of the headphone feeds exclusively for the drummer

Bass: DI and have the bassist monitor from the control room, he can overdub his bass afterwards and we can mic up the cab, improve the sound when the drum takes are finalised.

Guitar: 2 options here. I could fix up the spare room I have, make sure its soundproofed from the drum room and track one of the guitars. Or, what I prefer is fashioning some way around using guitar modellers. As with the bass, these can be replaced using the guitarists preferred sound. Again, this does mean monitoring from the control room.

Vocals: Rough only, monitoring from the control room.

This leaves me one headphone feed for anyone who demands a more bespoke mix.

How does this sound - workable? Not too destructive for the performance aspect?
I could get the bassist in the drum room with the drummer and the spare headphone mix.

What do you think will be the most troublesome factor about this configuration?

[Telecastr]

Originally posted by GRiFF

Guitar: 2 options here. I could fix up the spare room I have, make sure its soundproofed from the drum room and track one of the guitars. Or, what I prefer is fashioning some way around using guitar modellers. As with the bass, these can be replaced using the guitarists preferred sound. Again, this does mean monitoring from the control room.

Vocals: Rough only, monitoring from the control room.

This leaves me one headphone feed for anyone who demands a more bespoke mix.

How does this sound - workable? Not too destructive for the performance aspect?
I could get the bassist in the drum room with the drummer and the spare headphone mix.

What do you think will be the most troublesome factor about this configuration?

about the guitar...the last album i tracked, the whole band was in the same room for basic tracks - amps and all. in fact the guitar player's amp was about 2 feet from the drum set. there were some acoustic blankets setup as baffles and the amp was facing away from the drum set. the amp was probably playing at at least 90-95 db. he refused to turn it down any more than that. i got very little bleed in any of the drum mics. spend some time baffling the amps and drums from each other. in some cases i used some of the bass and guitar takes that were gotten with the drums. having that helps make for a more live performance on the track and there will be more energy in the take too.
rough vocals will be fine in the control room, or you could throw them in with the band. again just find a spot where they will not bleed into the drums. that would only be a possibility if it's a very quiet section of a song though.
2 headphone mixes should be fine. although you have 4 prefader aux sends on that mackie don't you? you could use those as headphone mixes if you had headphone amps to drive them. who knows, you may be able to drive them with one. if that isn't an option though, the 2 mixes will be fine. i'd put drums and bass on one mix. just make sure the drummer is most happy with the mix. use the other mix for everyone else. if you do set them all up in the same room to track, they will most likely only be using the headphone mix to hear the scratch vocal most. the amps will provide the rest of the mix. if you think about it, a lot of local bands function off of 2 monitor mixes or less when they play shows anyways. if you can swing more than that, you'll have em where you want em.

[Steffmo]

If you are thinking of morking with audio from the Alesis in a PC...you have to get the Fireport, and a Firewire card in the PC, plus software, unless you have it.

Otherwise the only way to get data into the PC will be ethernet.

That takes hours.....

[Steamy Williams]

Alternatively, you could get a Reamping device (Little Labs, Radial Engineering, Millennia or REAMP) for the bass and guitars. Not only does this solve your bleed problem with amps, you also save on mics whilst tracking the band. You might still want get some kinda amp modelling device so the guitarist(s) has a sound to work to while playing.

[Telecastr]

Originally posted by Steamy Williams
Alternatively, you could get a Reamping device (Little Labs, Radial Engineering, Millennia or REAMP) for the bass and guitars. Not only does this solve your bleed problem with amps, you also save on mics whilst tracking the band. You might still want get some kinda amp modelling device so the guitarist(s) has a sound to work to while playing.

that would work well too. i'm getting a Little Labs RedEye for reamping. then you have the performance and can sculpt the tone later.

[GRiFF]

Originally posted by Steffmo
If you are thinking of morking with audio from the Alesis in a PC...you have to get the Fireport, and a Firewire card in the PC, plus software, unless you have it.

Otherwise the only way to get data into the PC will be ethernet.

That takes hours.....

Hey Steffmo, you raise an interesting issue.

First of all though, its the Mackie HDR 24 I intend to use with my PC not the Alesis - although do you prefer this to the Mackie?
I like the Mackie brand much more than I do Alesis so far, but I'm all ears...

Is there anything you can tell me about synching up the PC and this device?

Should I...use the PC or the HDR as the master?

Whats the speed of transfer when moving data across using the fireport hardware you mentioned?

Generally, what do you reckon on the stability/reliability of an HDR chained to a PC?

[GRiFF]

Originally posted by Steamy Williams
Alternatively, you could get a Reamping device (Little Labs, Radial Engineering, Millennia or REAMP) for the bass and guitars. Not only does this solve your bleed problem with amps, you also save on mics whilst tracking the band. You might still want get some kinda amp modelling device so the guitarist(s) has a sound to work to while playing.

I understand the method of re-amping, recording an already recorded signal through a speaker, but how does this apply in this scenario?

Care to explain the idea here and how it differs to using guitar modellers?

I was thinking of running the modeller straight into the recorder for a pretty decent ruff guitar, which could be replaced later using the best of the available mics.

[Telecastr]

Originally posted by GRiFF
I understand the method of re-amping, recording an already recorded signal through a speaker, but how does this apply in this scenario?

Care to explain the idea here and how it differs to using guitar modellers?

I was thinking of running the modeller straight into the recorder for a pretty decent ruff guitar, which could be replaced later using the best of the available mics.

Here's what you should do. Get a good DI box like a Radial JDI ($190). Have the Guitar player plug in directly into the DI box, then go into the guitar modeller into another DI (the 2nd one can be crappy if you don't have 2 good ones). Record 2 different tracks - one of the first DI (pre-guitar modeller), and then the other DI (post guitar modeller). The track that is post guitar modeller is your scratch guitar track that you throw out eventually. The first track, the pre guitar modeller track, will be the track you use to reamp through the Little Labs, or whatever you choose to reamp with. This way you've got the guitar performance that was captured with the drum take, but you can run it through whatever amp and pedal combo you want without having the guitar player replaying the part. This is only gonna work if the guitar players take was a keeper obviously. The advantage to doing this, is that if he did get a good take, you've still got the live performance. The whole idea is to try to keep the song as much of a live performance as possible. Reamping the guitar afterwards, will also solve any possible guitar amp bleed that you may encounter. Another reason to do this is so that you've got total control over the guitar's tone. If you reamp the track with the guitar player there and his tone sucks, you can reamp later and make it sound good if you've got some amps of your own. All of this could apply to tracking the bass too. you're still going to have overdubs on guitar for sure, but if you can have at least the main rhythm track captured with the drum and bass take it will go a long way as far as the energy of the song goes. The way this differs from just using an amp modeller is so that all the guitars don't end up being overdubs by default. a lot of guitar players don't get as tweaky with their guitar tones during basic tracks because "hey it's just a scratch". if you do the reamp AND modeller thing for basics, you don't spend much time getting a tone either because it doesn't matter...you've got the performance going direct. tweak away later, get the performance now. wow, that was a long ramble. hope it all makes sense.

[Lawrence]

Originally posted by Steffmo
If you are thinking of morking with audio from the Alesis in a PC...you have to get the Fireport, and a Firewire card in the PC, plus software, unless you have it.

Otherwise the only way to get data into the PC will be ethernet.

That takes hours.....

Uh...

I've got an HD24 and no Fireport. How do I get my tracks to PC?

Digital transfer (i.e. play them all at once and record them to daw!) it takes about 4-5 minutes depending on how long the song is. Perfect digital copy over lightpipe to SX.

So I guess there is a "third" way?

Lawrence