lets talk about using 2 mics on 1 snare

[maskedman72]

i have been hearing the arguement for quite some time about what mic to flip the phase on when double micing a snare drum.

some people say "always flip the bottom mic" and others say "always flip the top mic"
i would like to hear what you are all doing and why you would fip one mic over the other.
i personally flip the bottom but that is because i have been taught to automaticcly do that cause "that is the way you have to do it" but if there are no rules to recording than i begin to question why i must flip the bottom each time without thought.




also, does the bottom mic have to be a mirror image of the top mic placement wise?(same angle,same distance)

thanks -jay

[wwittman]

It doesn't HAVE to be a mirror image but it makes it easy to get the phase relationships right if it is as close to that as possible.


Really you want to check the relationship of the top mic to the REST of the kit, for phase, and get that right.
Then if you need to flip the bottom in relation to the top you do.

It's not just a question of the two mics against each other... they have to sit relative to the rest of the kit and the leakage as well.

It's only logical (as Shelly Yakus once pointed out to me) that most drum mics look DOWN at the batter head, so that the head moves AWAY from the mic with the strike.
The bass drum (with a mic inside) and the bottom of the snare do the opposite... that is, the head moves TOWARD the mic with the strike.
So it's really only logical that these mics will see inverted 'phase'.

[NathanEldred]

FWIW, I'd rather have two mics on the top of the snare (a dynamic and a small diaphragm condenser with capsules as close together as possible), than one top and one bottom.

[MMazurek]

Yeah, just tape a 451 & 57 together.

(Hmmmm...maybe I'll call that a 508.
Or an sm508-b.)


And regarding the phase(polarity actually), LISTEN to it or CHECK IT. You may surprise yourself.
Maybe BOTH have inverted phase.
Maybe BOTH are FINE.
Maybe one needs to be flipped, maybe not.

Drop the THEORY behind this stuff when you can actually know what's going on.

[brendondp]

Have a look at this:

TapeOp Bottom Miking Snares

I'm more a proponent of miking the top and the shell, but everyone's different, which is what makes the world such a fascinating place to live in.

Right?

Cheers,

bdp

[scott petito]

another vote for the 2 mics on top... i like 57 and at 4041 or Akg 460... I print them to 2tracks... but I still try to time align the capsules ...I use this on Jazz sessions a lot

cheers
SP

[Jules]

we use a SM57 on top and a Beyer 201 on bottom a lot..

I like the ADR vocals stressor's FAST compression and HFeq combo on the undersnare mic...(minus compression and a lot of work, I think under snare signals sound crappy 99% of the time)

question - should I try out a beta 57?

[max cooper]

Cool thing about having one mic out of phase (I usually use both on top...57 & 451 pretty often here too) is that with one fader up and the other down, bringing up the second has a "thinning" effect as it comes up to unity.

I usually double it up with a "room" sample of the same snare, or one from BFD since I can solo the U87 output. Tedious but worth it, usually.

[tINY]

I like the Beta 57 for a lot of things. It's a very graceful mic with a much better high end than the old 57.



-tINY

[lofi]

"question - should I try out a beta 57?"

I did. better top end that is true, better separation from hhat, more gain but I dont know...

I still prefer sm57...

but lately I also put a small dynamic (actually a broken lavalier mic) INTO a snare shell - MAXIMUM separation - great impact.

I filter out all low mids and bass from it and gate it. then add this with high end boost to 57 track and compress both...

works very well and still sounds like 57 on snare but with added hifreq control

beta 57 is strange mic. I dont use it much I admit.

(disclaimer : I work mostly alternative/heavy music so on jazz kits maybe this wont work at all... on some mellower jazzy projects I did I used LDCs on snare with some distance - lots of details and realism...)

[maskedman72]

as i had suspected, it all depends on you,your situation,what you are going for......just like anything else.

i concur with jules that bottom snare tracks sound like shit 99.999% of the time anyhow.

ive never tried the 2 mics on top method before so i shall give that a whirl.

so i can tape a 57 and a 421 togther? with the 2 mics being so close will that eliminate phase issues?

[brownmouse]

a little labs ibp can come in awfully handy in these applications. i've been a 'one mic on snare' kind of guy, but lately i've tried the top and bottom 57 thing (just in case i need to trigger samples off the bottom head), it's been ok, but i'm gonna try the 2 on top or 1 top and 1 shell thing next..
joshua

[MJGreene Audio]

Should I try out a beta 57?

Jules,
Give it a try but I have never been fond of the sound. Very close to a 57 with a bit more high's but it compresses down, and doesn't seem to handle the SPL's as well as a regular 57. At least that has been my experience.

What about everyone else?

Michael Greene

[TER]

I use two mics on top also. A dynamic (varies-57,atm25, b201,md431) pointed towards the center of the drum and a small AKG 418 under the dynamic (as close as possible) and pointed directly at the rim. Dave Mattacks turned me on to this last year and I've been using it for every session...printed to two tracks. Allows great control over top/body balance. Folk/pop stuff here for the most part...so other's milage may vary.

Worth a try, though.

-tom

[recorderman]

I still get by with just sm57s on top and bottom. The bottom mic should be very low in the balance with relationship to the top mic...just a hint will do. I also usually have them almost parallel to the heads..looking across the snare top and bottom, angled a few degrees down (or up, for the bottom) at the head where the it is normally struck. Beeing that they are about 90 degrees differrent in phase relative to the OH, etc with this position , I listen and adjust as necessary for that particular setup. I always check relative polarity of all mics..usually using one of the kick mics as ground zero after I've first confirming it's absolute polarity, and then the polarity setting that sounds good.

[kudzu]

I can't remember where or when I picked this up but it works good
TOP MIC cut low end (a lot)
cut 800-1000Hz
add 1.2Khz-1.5Khz
cut 9-10Khz

BOTTOM MIC cut HPF 250Hz
cut 350-450Hz
cut 750- 850Hz
cut 3.5- 4Khz
add high end LPF

[Musiclab]

I usually do 1 mic a beyer 201, which I place as though I'm mic'ing the shell. I then move the mic up over the top of the snare. Depending on how much snare I want I'll either lower it or raise it. But lately because I've been using more room sounds I started putting another 201 under the snare. This way if I need more snares in the sound I'll bring it up.

I do the whole kit by starting with the overheads and then bringing up the individual mics and checking the phase. I want to try those little labs boxes

[toledo3]

Lately for me it has been a 545 on the top, and a SM7 on the side. I don't usually have to mess with the polarity- though many times I will use one as a send to the reverb and not use any of it dry in the mix.

This is kind of wacky, but I also like to put up an electro voice crystal element mic, because it has an amazing sound to it for snare when mixed with other mics- though very bandwidth limited. It really makes a great "kraaaackkkk".

[FadersmakmeHappy]

Originally Posted by tINY

I like the Beta 57 for a lot of things. It's a very graceful mic with a much better high end than the old 57.



-tINY

I have been using a Beta 57 quite a bit lately for snare top as well as mic'ing guitar cabs. Paired with a GR or Neve pre it is a nice combo. I agree that it tends to compress the high end a little more but has a clarity and fullness that the old 57's don't have and in my opinion does not seem as coloured. I have also been using the Beta 57 as part of my live rig for micing my mesa guitar amp ( I play jazz and funk) and have gotten rave reviews from the FOH guys at clubs and casinos.

Rock stuff it is not as applicable but for folk and jazz I like to use a U87 or 414 on the snare top with a limiter in the signal path. A lot of nuance! Personally I love a traditional 57 on the bottom of the snare to get some of that rattle and pick up the ghost notes especially with the recent trend of drummers using larger lower tuner snare drums.

Anyone have any experience with the telefunken mods for the 57?