How important is the quality of a subwoofer?

[CassidyGT]

I just hooked up a Jensen subwoofer to my new Presonus Monitor Station. The sound of my mixes has become alot more flabby and mushy since doing so. I did turn down the woofers on my Adam A7's when I got the sub up which was the reason I hooked up the sub.

Questions:

1. Could this be a function of the quality of the sub?
2. Could this be a function of the Monitor Station not being a very good piece of equipment? (unlikely I would think)
3. Could this be a function of the room and an indicator that I need more traps?

[audiomichael]

1. Not familiar with the Jensen, if it's a decent sub it should be fine. Bye the way...the Sub8 is a really good match for the A7's.
2. Doubt it.
3. Probably a big factor. It's hard to get the bottom right in a room, so go crazy...get traps!

The room is a monster factor in having a sub woofer. The other is the setup. It's possible to setup a sub/satellite system so bad that you don't stand a chance of doing a good mix.

Since you're not using a bass management box (you didn't mention it, anyway), try this:
•Setup your Adam A7's as if you were going to be using them full range, with no sub. (I found it necessary to roll off the bottom <150hz by 1 notch, so they don't get overwhelmed as easily...YMMV).

• Playback your favorite piece of music that you're very familiar with, and has some good bottom end going.

•THEN...pop in the sub, with the volume all the way down. If you have a remote...cool. If not, then have someone adjust it for you so you can stay in the sweet spot of your mix station.

• Slowly raise the volume of the sub till you just start to hear it fill in the bottom (or maybe just after that).

This is totally non-scientific, but it's is a good way to start. You can adjust from there as you work. If you're too bass-shy in your mixes, then lower your sub. If you're bass is too boomy in your mixes then try turning up the sub.

[tINY]

Do the mixes sound mushy on other systems, or in your control room?




-tINY

[Weasel9992]

This is a *very* common complain about subs when a room isn't treated well. Adding a sub to a room that isn't treated to deal with it has exactly the effect you'd think it would have: lots of tubby, flabby low end energy rolling around the room. Positioning is critical for a sub too, plus some measure of decoupling from the floor.

Not saying you can't use a sub, just that it takes more work than you might think to make it useable.

Frank

[CassidyGT]

hmmm - I have a pretty small room (12 x 15 ish). Should the A7's be good enough without a sub in well-treated room of that size?

I actually have some treatment, and more is on the way. My problem is that I use ARC to get a mix listenable. Without ARC, it is completely useless - just way too much bass everywhere. However, with ARC, my mixes are great in the room, but very bass heavy on other systems. To compensate, I turned up the bass on the A7's so I turn down the bass when mixing. This works to a point, but again I am always guessing.

What I thought was to add the sub and be able to tune the bass better. However, this is turning out to be more difficult than expected.

Maybe the answer is to get rid of the sub and get all the treatment in place. And then make a determination.

Thanks guys!

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by CassidyGT

hmmm - I have a pretty small room (12 x 15 ish). Should the A7's be good enough without a sub in well-treated room of that size?

I actually have some treatment, and more is on the way. My problem is that I use ARC to get a mix listenable. Without ARC, it is completely useless - just way too much bass everywhere. However, with ARC, my mixes are great in the room, but very bass heavy on other systems. To compensate, I turned up the bass on the A7's so I turn down the bass when mixing. This works to a point, but again I am always guessing.

What I thought was to add the sub and be able to tune the bass better. However, this is turning out to be more difficult than expected.

Maybe the answer is to get rid of the sub and get all the treatment in place. And then make a determination.

Thanks guys!

Hold on a sec...so you're using ARC, which probably takes a bit divot out at 50Hz or so, but your mixes are boomy so you're turning up the low end on the A7's so you'll turn down the bass when you mix? I know what you're trying to do, but this is a very convoluted way to do it. Your room is working against you at every step. Adding a sub to it is just going to make it much worse.

If it were my room and my mixes, I'd keep the A7's (love 'em), get rid of the sub (at least for now), and put a heck of a lot of bass trapping in that room. Check out this room setup link to get some idea about where to put what: http://www.gikacoustics.com/room_setup.php

Frank

[CassidyGT]

Thanks Frank.

Tri-Traps are already on the way and I am going to try the stuffing of the bookcase with mineral wool idea that I floated on another thread.

I know you think it is nutty, but I'll give it a try and let you know what happens.

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by CassidyGT

Thanks Frank.

Tri-Traps are already on the way and I am going to try the stuffing of the bookcase with mineral wool idea that I floated on another thread.

I know you think it is nutty, but I'll give it a try and let you know what happens.

Haha...no man, do your thing. I don't think it's nutty at all...I'd actually love to find out what the results are, so post 'em when you can.

Frank

[audiomichael]

Hi Frank!!!

You gave me some great advice last month on my GIK setup. I've seen some vast improvements since I got this last batch of traps arrived.

The Tri-Traps rock. I've got a pair stacked in each front corner.

Best
Michael Nielsen

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by audiomichael

Hi Frank!!!

You gave me some great advice last month on my GIK setup. I've seen some vast improvements since I got this last batch of traps arrived.

The Tri-Traps rock. I've got a pair stacked in each front corner.

Best
Michael Nielsen

Hey Michael! I'm glad it's all working great for you. I love what I do.

Frank

[sonicdefault]

Here's a tip until you get used to the sub and have your room fully treated/calibrated...

Mix without the sub as normal until you get your mix sounding the way you want, and then insert it when your almost done to check for unwanted LF content/balance. Because the sub inherently translates a very small portion of the spectrum, there's really no need to mix with it unless you're using allot of very LF content such as for SFX, etc. Otherwise, it's ok simply to use the sub as more of a safety net to make sure the low end of your mix isn't out of control. When you get more accustomed to using it, then it shouldn't be a problem.

In my experience (and as Frank inferred), the room and treatment are critical when adding a sub to the point where if the room isn't ready, it's almost counter-productive adding one. I think this is what you're experiencing. The other three key factors are placement, level and your crossover point.

Also, this may sound kinda crazy (or obvious)... but if your mixes are turning out well and translating properly across the board, but your still not satisfied with how the sub sounds in your room, you may have become adept to compensating for any acoustical imbalance. In this case, simply turn the gain down on your sub. A little goes a long way with this poor man's approach.


-SD

[nickynicknick]

you don't need a sub.

[mikesilence]

Its funny but my Tannoy Ellipse 8 work very well with my Behringer B2092A sub...

I think all will work if it matches with your taste of sound.