Working with a Band

[jerdude]

How much to producers jack with what a Band is doing?

I am not talking about changing their entire direction making them a Matchbox 20 when they are trying to be Marilyn Manson.

In general, how much do producers play around with arrangements and getting the parts they way he (the producer) hears in his head? Or does he expect them to have all that stuff already worked out and really emotional for the song... and then he just makes sure to get the best performances that make up the great arrangement and song?

[Dave Martin]

It depends, on the band and on the producer. Each situation needs to be dealt with on its own merits. There are no rules.

[jerdude]

sup Dave!?

do you remember chattin with me a while back?

so you are saying both ways can work...

if the producer hears somethings that he thinks makes the song, but the band just doesn't hear it or get it... does this just mean that the match isn't gonna work and you have to move on?

[enharmonic]

Jerdude trying to pin this one down is the equivalent of taking a masters class in grey area. :)

There are several factors that weigh in. How much trust does the band/producer have with eachother. How much "power" or rather " control" does the band have over their sound. How in awe of the producer is the band? How in awe of the band is the producer? Who writes the songs? Who is able to take direction. Who is likely to wig out the least/most when you start manipulating "art" into "product" (which IMO is an art in and of itself).

You're dealing with ego's, emotions, money, and suits who wouldn't know the difference between a hook and a bridge...and don't care as long as it sells.

Good luck...what a mess that whole situation can be...unless you have synergy...then what a beautiful thing it can be.

[jerdude]

yea.... great points all!!

i am the producer in this case. And i am relatively new to producing full bands. I have experience working with solo artists on an independent and label situation... and this brings a different set related issues but usually i have more freedom.

I realize this is a complicated question !

As enharmonic pointed out, there really is alot of factors other than the music that play into this.

I guess I am looking for some validation in pursuing what i feel is the right approach to bringing the most/best out of this band and songs. I think i am one who hears rougher demo's or low budget self produced music and gets the "vision/directionwhat they are going for" pretty quickly. Oviously i like that enough to work with them so why would I change the that. I am rambling now...

I guess I have to follow my musical gut and if ego's and trust get in the way then it's not meant to be. I can definitely see how having some big credits helps this situation... i guess i am idealistic thinking that everyone can hear... regardless of credits... after all they have no credits... i didn't make my decision to work with them based on their self-recorded debut that sold 350 copies. I am rambling again....

[Dave Martin]

I do remember chatting with you a while back, Jerdude - what' happenin?

Mostly what I'm saying is that these sorts of things need to be discussed in advance - some bands are, shall we say, less capable of taking direction than others. Some producers are better at simply realizing the band's own vision while other bring something much more interesting to the table that allows the band to grow in directions that they wouldn't have thought of on their own.

Indeed, some producers don't fit with some bands. But I'd suggest that in the majority of cases, especially those that most of us encounter, the biggest hurdle is communication - the band articulating what they expect from the producer and the producer making sure that the band knows what he exects to do. When label money is paying for the producer, everything changes, however.

[hethaerto]

Jerdude,
I'd say go balls to the wall! But I'd also recommend using plenty of tact. If these guys have any sort of intelligence, they will recognize constructive criticism.
What are they paying you for?
It's your job to push the bastards until you're happy with their results.
I've seen bands jumping up and down about seriously mediocre bullshit.
I stepped in and told them the truth.
The sessions started getting better.
Spend time with the guys outside of the studio. Go drinking with them. Tell them what you desire. You're the coach.
Of course, these are my opinions based on my past experiences.
Allen

[Jules]

If you want to produce bands, you either

a) hang out and only work with 'perfect' bands that need no production advice,

or

b) you develop a skill set to make non perfect bands more perfect

This skill set can include but is not restricted to

Engineering
Colluding with management & record company to steer them in a different direction
Psychological manipulation
Persuasion
Bullying
Co-song writing
Outright lies
Genuine Friendship
A sense of camaraderie
Financial charity
Hospitality
Experience within the studio environment
Experience within the music industry
Common sense
A musical ear
Ability to spot talent
Music theory skills
Tea & sympathy
Managing the managers
Dealing with A&R mooks
Ability to hold all calls
Take successful meetings
Tune a drum kit
Intonate a guitar
Coach vocals
Diplomacy

[wwittman]

I think that's right...
a GOOD producer is prepared to do all of that and more, and sensible enough to not do what doesn't need to be done.

If a band really is SO together that they can produce themselves, they probably should.

I don't know that it happens all that often.
Most bands can use some help, even if it's only because someone outisde of the paper bag has a bigger picture view.

Good records are all about arrangement and performance.
If the band already HAS good arrangements then leave it alone, if they don't help them get them.
Then it's your job to encourage and capture great performances of those parts.
Something almost no one can judge about his OWN performance.

Producing is NOT engineering; anymore than being a terrific cameraman makes you a director.
You're there to get the most out of the artiste and that can mean any number of things.
But it certainly means that if something can be better you recognize it and know what to do to chase after it.

I'm not there to "document" something adequate when I COULD be helping them find something extraordinary.

[jerdude]

julez and wwittman....

AWESOME!!

"I'm not there to "document" something adequate when I COULD be helping them find something extraordinary."

The julez list is equally compelling, intimidating and inspiring.

I think i may print both of these posts and put them somewhere as a reminder!!

Both of you reminded me of why I love creating music. I love hearing something in "raw" form and turning it into a finished work. Hopefully more than 50% of the time its great art that communicates. I like to think of myself as a people person. i genuinely enjoy the commradary (sp?) and energy that can come from working with others to acheive something. It probably sounds cheezy but its true. ehe

Thanks for reminding me!

[Gregg Sartiano]

Are you getting your full rate? If so, you have to play the ego game, 'cause if you push them into something that you know is 'good' but which they don't dig, you'll be in hot water really fast & they'll want their data and their money back. No fun.

Of course, if they're paying you for the privilege of being 'putty in your hands,' then you have leeway. This leeway is built on trust -- the trust is built on respect, and the respect level is representative of a conglomeration of things which build credibility: industry access, release credits, 'name' clients, track record (quality of finished mixes), and much more.

But Jules is right -- note that half of his producers toolkit is things like psychological manipulation and bullying. I agree 100% -- I'd like to add that you have to get the pecking order straight right away. If they wanna pay you so they can be in rock 'n roll Disneyland for a few days and have you clean up the mess & give 'em a CD, then cool. Let them have their fun. But if they wanna make a record, and you're good at making records, find subtle ways to let 'em know who the record-maker in the room is...

There may be a quarterback on the field (in the band), but you're the coach, if you're wearing the Producer hat. Start calling the plays.