OT: New monitors OR Room treatment ?

[loke]

Hi..

So finally I have listned to some Monitore that are in my price range:

Adams P22
Adams S2A
Adams P33
Dynaudio BM6a
K+H O 110
Genelec 1031

I have to say that I liked the P33 and S2A the most.

Anyway. Right now I am using EVENT 20/20bas. so I have two questions

1. how does the Event ASP8 sound compared to mine ??

2. Would it be better to invest the money in Room treatment than in new Monitores cuz a) the monitors I have listed are "crap" anyway b) to treat the room will give me more sound "quality" than better monitores at this stage

All input are most welcome...

THANKS

[Ethan Winer]

Loke,

> Would it be better to invest the money in Room treatment than in new Monitores cuz a) the monitors I have listed are "crap" anyway b) to treat the room will give me more sound "quality" than better monitores at this stage <

I may be biased because I sell room treatment, but to me there's no question that room treatment will give you much better results than new speakers. It's not like the Events are total crap. Even if you get the best speakers in the world you'll still be hard pressed to get a good mix if the room is untreated. But with good treatment that works well at low frequencies even the Events will be quite workable.

--Ethan

[kellyd]

Guess it depends on how much and what treatment you have at the moment. I've been working on my control room for a few years. I was about to dump a couple of grand on a redesign, instead, I bought Adam S3As. My room was already pretty decent but the JBL LSR28Ps' low end wasn't working in the room (15x10 with a 3 ft alcove). As soon as I installed the Adams the low end cleaned up. There was very little build up at the back of the room, actually the imaging was much more consistent around the room w/ little low freq issues. I believe due the the room dimensions, even with added pro solutions I would not have ended up w/ the listening enviroment I have with the Adams.
The Acoustician who came in advised me that you can only due so much with what you have (can we add 20 ft to the room?). He was sure he could improve the room but that the low freqs I was dealing with were going to be difficult.
As it stands now I have a mix room that translates really well. I do have quite a bit of treatment. Slatted diffusors, bass traps overhead cloud etc.. I don't have any of the issues that used to screw me during tracking and mixing
My point is, yes you have to have a decent room but if you've gone thru what I've been thru maybe the monitors need to be looked at. I would also consider some Sound Anchor stands for the monitors. They made a world of difference. Avoiding speaker coupling is a huge deal. They also helped me w/ positioning to avoid console reflections. K.

[AnthonyV]

IMO - a room can be managed, monitors can't. Get the best monitors you can then treat your room as you can afford it. It seems kinda ass-backwards but I think its most practical.. for me anyway.

-ants

[MASSIVE Master]

I've got to say I'm with Ethan on this one... Great monitors in a poor room is like putting a great engine in a car with no wheels.

On the other hand, even in great rooms, I've had trouble with the 20/20 actives...

[loke]

Like you have seen on the monitors, my price range is around $3000.

Would it make sense to only treat the room some ??

Let´s say. Get 2-4 Mondotraps and put the rest in monitors ?? or would that be too big of a compromisse on both parts ?

[Prince Alsihad]

I totally agree with Ethan as well. We have some killer Genelec 1037B monitors but the room is horrible to mix in. Very hard to get a killer mix. Never translates well on other systems. Thank God we're moving to a new place in the next couple of months.

[Rodney Gene]

Originally posted by loke
Like you have seen on the monitors, my price range is around $3000.

Would it make sense to only treat the room some ??

Let´s say. Get 2-4 Mondotraps and put the rest in monitors ?? or would that be too big of a compromisse on both parts ?

Personally I would do both.

I would start with room treatment and listen to your original mixes (and your refernce CD's) in the new room.

It will help you evaluate your new monitors MUCH better.
It is possible to get a good set of monitors (Adams, Gens, Dyna etc.), get used to a crappy room with them, get decent result out of sheer repetition and hard work...then buy room treatment and not like the the monitors anymore.

It happened to me.
Plus...I scored a set of speakers that MANY people at the time were really into..and I struggled alot with them in my room. I ended up with less expensive monitors...less 'hip' and much more enjoyable for me.
Monitors..IMO..are the most personal piece of gear in the whole chain. Pretty much know what a Distressor or PCM42 is going sound like in any studio.

Ultimately you can't do much or make an educated choice unless your room is somewhat under control and you know what to expect.

P&B,

Rodney

[Poutine]

Are you experienced with basic carpentry?
If so, consider doing some research and building your own room treatments

Plans for traps and diffusors are readily available, and the basic materials you would use are essentially the same as the commercial products.

The various foam style wall treatments are minimally effective, and not broadband.
Build your own, and you can save a huge amount of money; perhaps enough to afford new monitors too.

It would also be worth having a TEF analysis done of your room before and after doing the initial treatments, to give you a clearer idea of its performance, and what frequencies you need to treat, or be aware of when recording/mixing

Regardless of what speakers you use, they all benefit from room treatments.

Your studio will also look more professional too - a consideration if you work
( or hope to ) with outside clients.

[fadeout]

Originally posted by Rodney Gene
Personally I would do both.

I would start with room treatment and listen to your original mixes (and your refernce CD's) in the new room.

It will help you evaluate your new monitors MUCH better.
It is possible to get a good set of monitors (Adams, Gens, Dyna etc.), get used to a crappy room with them, get decent result out of sheer repetition and hard work...then buy room treatment and not like the the monitors anymore.

This is very good advice.

Loke - I'm in a similar position, auditioning some of the same speakers, AND I currently am using Event 20/20bas, which I have had for about 10 years. Let me tell you, I have cursed those speakers up and down, and blamed them for everything that was ever wrong with my mixes.

About 2 weeks ago, I ordered a set of Ethan's traps - 8xMiniTraps, which are the bass traps, and 4 MicroTraps, which I used to treat the first reflection points in the room - the ceiling above the mix pos, and the sidewalls. I'd planned to do things that way, because I knew I'd want to get the room under control before buying monitors, but I was blown away by the massive improvement. I was begging forgiveness from those 20/20's for all the bad things I'd said about them.

As well as the low end improvements, the thing that amazed me more was the improvement in imaging, and clarity across the whole spectrum.

Without changing speakers, and without making any effort, I can tell you that the quality of my mix translation has improved many many times in the last couple of weeks.

Also ordered soundanchor stands, which again, I expect to help out with the speaker positioning and isolation - they are currently on console top. (Soundanchors are made to order and take a while.)

Listening to CDs, after installing the real traps, I've heard many things I never heard before - breaths, the creaking of a chair during a guitar take, etc. Not to mention that the music just sounds way better.

What's interesting to me also is that I was auditioning speakers at a pro audio dealer in NYC, and listening carefully to some of those same tracks. In the dealer demo room (treated with stuff from a prominent commercial acoustic treatment company) , I heard much LESS of the same detail coming out of the speakers. And those were Dynaudio and ADAM speakers, not my humble 20/20's.

Also - I'd thought about going the DIY route for treatment, but ended up deciding that it was false economy, and that if the RealTraps didn't work, I'd just return them. REALLY glad I made that decision.

Good luck!

- Chris

[loke]

Hi Guys and thanks for all the answers and tipps..

I will go the room treatment way.. I am right now in contact with Sonic Distributions who sell realtraps "over here"...

I hope they can halp me with what I need for my room und were to place them... I am sure it will be a big difference. And wehen I have saved up money again, I´ll eiter buy some really good monitors or something else if I think my Events work well after the room treatment

[wwittman]

I feel pretty good, but if I wanted to feel BETTER, should I take vitamins or exercise more?

Point is:
Without knowing what you don't like about your present monitors AND without knowing what might or might NOT be right or wrong with your acoustic environment... how can anyone know what you should do?

The 20/20bas are not crap.
I've mixed records on them (notably on John Leventhal's) and they work fine.
In fact, I would suggest they're as good as any of the others you mentioned...
but that's IF you like them.
monitors are a very personal choice.
It's all about what matches well with your tastes, your style and your habits.
I don't personally do well with Genelecs at all, others love them


Interesting to me that someone here got rid of JBL LSR28ps (one of the very few bookshelves I like and use) in favour of the Adams (which didn't sound good to me at all the one time I heard them).
See?
Personal taste.
(although why one would promote bass build-up in a room and the other not, I have to admit, I don't get... seems to me that's a ROOM issue that speakers won't solve)

If you feel your room really COULD use some acoustic help then certainly it can only help ANY speakers you put in there.

But if you don't like or get on well with your monitors then the room isn't going to be of much use.
On the monitor side, have you tried listening to the JBL's? I'd also recommend ATC which are pricey but terrific.

But bottom line is you don't say what's WRONG that you want to fix.

[loke]

Most time it a struggle getting the low end right in my mixes. BaseDrum and Bas never really translate as I want it. For example... I mix a rock band. were I mix the bas is waaaay to loud and I almost don´t hear any notes.. it´s just Brruuuuummm the whole time.. I play the mix at a friend and, hey. That´s not that bad..

I have learned to mix like this but it makes NO fun.

So the question is what could it be.. teh Room or the Monitors..

I have to come to believe it is the room...

I am sorry that I didn´t write this before, as this is important info to my problem...

[kellyd]

Why or how the Adams corrected the bass build up I had with the JBLs I'm not sure. The results are what they are. I've had a lot of engs in who we're surprsed how much tighter the room was. With the treatments I have, the low end is much more even around the room. I can sit 10 ft back from the console with a slight bump in the bottom which was huge with the JBL LSRs.
Perhaps the JBLs we're exciting the room in ways the Adams don't, not sure. I still have plenty of bottom but it's more refined. The combo of my room w/ it's treatments and the Adams just works extremely well. Isn't that what it's about? Finding the right combo of room treatments, placement and the right monitors for the enviroment?

[Rodney Gene]

Loke..have you pluged the front bass ports of the 20/20's?

That could be huge factor it getting a tighter bass tone.

Front ported nearfields absolutley work best for me and my room..no question about it, but it took some time and tweaking.

P&B,
Rodney

[wwittman]

If your mixes sound good to you at your friend's, wh not bring your Events to your friends and listen there?
If it still sounds good, it's your room.
If the thig you DON'T like repeats itself in your friend's room, then it's the speakers.

My suspicion from what you say, is it's the room

[loke]

@Rodney Gene - what do you mean??

On the back side of the Events I have tried to tweak the settings by useing the "low cut" Still the same problem. Plus it is some how sounding weaker now...



@wwittman - grerat idee. I wounder why I didn´t do that before. Well, went there yesterday and tried it out. Guess what ? Sound is perfect..

Well, so it have to be the room right ?

or could it be cuz his CR is painted red and nice while mine is hospital white and unfriendly :-( (I have to fix that aswell someday, even if it doesen´t have to do anything with the sound)..

Thank you everybody

[Rodney Gene]

Originally posted by loke
@Rodney Gene - what do you mean??

On the back side of the Events I have tried to tweak the settings by useing the "low cut" Still the same problem. Plus it is some how sounding weaker now...

On the front of the Events is a bass port (I don't own them but it looks that way) 'plug' the bass port with a small piece of acoustic foam or dense foam. Literally plug it up (stuff the foam in the hole). It could really help reduce that low rumble and get you used to manipulating the low end...even with room treatment.

Personally I wouldn't touch the 'low-cut' switch.

The room I use as CR is really poor, It is completey acoustically treated..I have 16 bass traps (not REAL traps but the Auralex lenrds)..I use only front ported nearfields and still the low is a problem. Sure I am used to it but I can still fool myself somedays.

P&B,

Rodney