Bass Rolloff during mastering - yes or no?

[karatemanjohnny]

I'm curious - how many people here use a rolloff in the EQ during the mastering stage? It seems to tame the bass on the projects I work on.

When I take a mix to my car (with four 8 inch speakers, no sub), if the bass has been rolled off, then I can crank it and the bass won't start sounding like crap. If it hasn't been rolled off, I can't crank it.

However, on commercial CD's, I can crank it and the bass stays pretty tame. After looking at some commercial mixes with a spectrum analyzer, I can also see that there isn't a heck of a lot going on below 35 Hz.

So, is a rolloff at 30/35 Hz useful?

Thoughts?

[NIGHT'SCHILD]

I like to use a LITTLE bass roll off somewhere in the 30hz range. I found it does get rid of the distorted bass and seems to bring out the clean bass more efficiently. I have always found less bass is better when mastering because you want the product to sound good on all mediums. Systems with great bass speakers will accentuate the bass and sound good, while systems like in your car will have the bass there just not overpowering or distorted.

[Clueless]

See this reference that talks about the "free 12dB per octave gain" you get with bass below 60-80 Hz in the typcial car. I'd definitely say that rolling off bass is an important thing to do if the car's system doesn't do it for you.

[karatemanjohnny]

i'd say a great majority of things i work on (and possibly most audio projects in general) mainly end up being listened to mostly in cars, so it's important that tracks sound good in cars.

i think that rolling off around 30-35 Hz is a good thing to do, based on the amount of information that you lose in that frequency region (for the type of music i usually work on) versus the amount you gain in translation on various systems. most cars i'm used to don't have subs.

[Brad Blackwood]

Depends entirely on the music. There's no one process that should be applied to everything that comes through the door...

[NIGHT'SCHILD]

Yeah like we haven't heard that one before Brad Blackwood

[karatemanjohnny]

Good point, Brad. Songs that are thin enough down there wouldn't need a rolloff.

[BrianK]

Amen Brad - but their real-world experience tells them differently.

Yet, I shudder to think of lopping of useful low end (any low end) unless the SOUND needs it. If the playback systems are poor, that's not something to adjust my work.

You would think GOOD car systems handle low bass incredibly well...

Now there is a theory about taking out low end under 15Hz or so - things you will never hear, and rarely feel... but make compressors and limiters jump up and down!

[NIGHT'SCHILD]

I think the main point is that you want your music to sound good on all mediums at almost any (volume,bass,treble) level. That doesn't mean getting rid of bass just making the bass pleasant enough so that somebody without a $2k car stereo or home stereo can enjoy it. Bass is tricky it seems most "high-end" monitor speakers handle bass too well. I like to listen to my mastered songs in my car with a stock system just to get an idea. I found that most people who listen to CD's in there car turn there bass knob up anyways, so a little bass roll off won't hurt anything.

[Henri]

When you say roll off between 30-35 htz, are you Q-ing (if so, how wide) it or shelving the bass?
Henri

[MASSIVE Master]

They're referring to an (x)dB/Octave or elliptical rolloff.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by MASSIVE Master
They're referring to an (x)dB/Octave or elliptical rolloff.

Yah, generally 12, 18, or 24dB/octave slope on a HPF.

What do you mean by 'elliptical rolloff'?

[MASSIVE Master]

Elliptical filter perhaps?

100+dB/octave with a bit of a ripple.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by MASSIVE Master
Elliptical filter perhaps?

100+dB/octave with a bit of a ripple.

An ellliptical EQ/filter is a filter which sums the LF to mono at a set x-over point (for vinyl). Basically, everything below the freq selected was summed to mono, everything above it was left stereo.

Never heard of an 'elliptical filter' with 100+dB/oct slope, however.

[karatemanjohnny]

I'm referring to a bass-cut / hi-pass filter, with a really narrow q, that I use during mastering. I try and get the rolloff as steep as possible, unless i'm going for a specific effect. Otherwise, I'd really hurt the bass.

I usually cut at 25-35 Hz, but usually around 28 Hz. I find that a steep rolloff at around 28 Hz helps the mixes translate more. But, like has been said before, each song has a specific set of needs. After listening to some test tones that go from 100 to 20 Hz, I've really realized just how freakin low 20/25 Hz is.

I was just interested in getting some feedback from the fine people on this forum.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by karatemanjohnny
I'm referring to a bass-cut / hi-pass filter, with a really narrow q, that I use during mastering. I try and get the rolloff as steep as possible, unless i'm going for a specific effect. Otherwise, I'd really hurt the bass.

I usually cut at 25-35 Hz, but usually around 28 Hz. I find that a steep rolloff at around 28 Hz helps the mixes translate more.

Exactly - if that's what's needed, it can really help. It can also thin stuff out to where it doesn't sound right if it's unnecessarry - which was my earlier point...

[MASSIVE Master]

Originally posted by Brad Blackwood
An ellliptical EQ/filter is a filter which sums the LF to mono at a set x-over point (for vinyl). Basically, everything below the freq selected was summed to mono, everything above it was left stereo.

Never heard of an 'elliptical filter' with 100+dB/oct slope, however.

Yeah, I had it the first time. Elliptic rolloff.

It's 115dB/octave with a ripple.

[karatemanjohnny]

Massive,

Thanks for sharing that graphic. It's cool.
I'm gonna look more into that, pretty interesting.


Brad,

I was definitely referring to your earlier post when I said that. That's a good point, always good to be reminded of.

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by MASSIVE Master
[b]Yeah, I had it the first time. Elliptic rolloff.

It's 115dB/octave with a ripple.

HOLY CRAP that ripple is ugly!

12-24dB/octave should be fine...

And elliptical EQ/filter (as I described above) can be useful in audio - I cannot imagine a filter of 100+dB/oct being useful except in ADC's...

[wwittman]

I RECORD most things (almost everything except bass guitar, bass drum and the like) with the desk filters set to roll off below 25Hz or 50Hz.

So i never NEED to do it in mastering.
And never do.

[Timecode]

I'm in the unusual position of mastering a lot of stuff that primarily gets played on big outdoor rigs. I used to HPF almost everything to clean it up and to get more useable level, but I found that many bigger outdoor rigs handle that low stuff quite well (no room accoustics helps) and the tracks sounded like they were missing some weight when I rolled off the really low sub. Obviously I still do it sometimes when called for, but it's no longer my default. With programmed dance stuff the low sub also tends to be less 'junky' - it's the bottom end of the kick or bass, rather than trains going past or anything like that.

I think another problem with low sub is it's very difficult to treat - I have just over 5m between two walls = 32hz standing wave which I'm having a really hard time getting rid of - I have large bass traps in all corners that sort out most of the rest, but that one is still an issue. It's not normally a problem but it does make judging low sub a problem sometimes and I think that's the main reason I used to default to the hpf.

Cheers
Matthew

edit: Eish, I got here from a link and did not see that this thread is from 2004...

[Gonzalo]

Originally Posted by Brad Blackwood

HOLY CRAP that ripple is ugly!

12-24dB/octave should be fine...

And elliptical EQ/filter (as I described above) can be useful in audio - I cannot imagine a filter of 100+dB/oct being useful except in ADC's...

A 110Hz 7th Order (42dB/Oct) Elliptical Low Pass Filter is used in LFE channel for 5.1 reproduction, according to Bass Management standards.

Cheers