using delay to create space and depth

[Unknown soldier]

I've heard about and used this tried and true trick - sending a track to a delay set at around 40ms, then panning the return opposite to "widen" the sound. Mix to taste. I do this with lead guitar - dry panned around 10 oclock, return at 2. What other instruments/situations do you use this for? What is the best delay setting - 30, 40ms? Or does it depend on the mix? I'm looking to expand this technique if possible...

thanks

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Unknown soldier
I've heard about and used this tried and true trick - sending a track to a delay set at around 40ms, then panning the return opposite to "widen" the sound. Mix to taste. I do this with lead guitar - dry panned around 10 oclock, return at 2. What other instruments/situations do you use this for? What is the best delay setting - 30, 40ms? Or does it depend on the mix? I'm looking to expand this technique if possible...

thanks

It all depends on the tempo of the track in terms of the time

What helps is basically anything that replicates the sound of an instrument tracked with a pair of spaced microphones, time difference is the key.

Also a little modulation and pitch shifting helps for slight variation.

To take it further would include using reverb, which is a whole other topic on its own.

[drundall]

Hey Thrill, do you use a lot of timed (1/4's 1/8's, etc) mono delays in your mixes? I've stopped doing this but want to get back into it. Def takes some work to get it right.

[djui5]

Originally posted by drundall
Hey Thrill, do you use a lot of timed (1/4's 1/8's, etc) mono delays in your mixes? I've stopped doing this but want to get back into it. Def takes some work to get it right.

What takes time to get right?


If you need to calculate delay times....do this...

60,000 divided by the tempo of the song will give you 1/4 note delay times.....cut this in half for 1/8th notes...etc etc.....

IE

60,000 divided by 135= 444.44444444444444444444444

So..if you wanted 1/4 notes and the tempo of the song is 135 bmp..then you'd set the delay time for 444ms......if you wanted 1/8th notes....set it to 222ms......if you want half notes...set it to 888ms......

[karatemanjohnny]

This is a topic I'm interested in too. For lush R&B vocals, I usually have a really long pre-delay. It works for guitar and piano too. It's not quite the same, but the long pre-delay does the job for vocals.

I've heard some awesome mixes (Radiohead's "Gagging Order" comes to mind) where a little bit of delay on the voice makes a big difference.

I haven't been able to do a ton of delays on my tracks, because I'm using pro tools LE and I don't have enough processing power for all the reverbs and delays i'd want to use. Audiosuite comes in hand, though.

[Mike Tholen]

dotted notes?
triplets?
what's the calc for those?
I've become used to these variations...and have been able to work with these values well.
It's easy having a delay box to do this calc for you.

[Mystr Tiger]

One thing that might be fun to do for a (mostly) centered instrument or vocal, is to place one delay on the left channel, and a different delay on the right. For example, a 1/8 delay on left, and a 1/4 note delay on right. Or, 1/8 on left, and 1/8 plus a few extra millisecs on right. Or, very short delays on left and right. This idea fails to work sometimes depending on the density of the mix - just have to experiment to find out what works at the time.

[Cornvalley]

http://www.garone.net/anthony/delaycalc.html

It's an OSX app but if you search there are online calculators that do the job.

[pan60]

randy
this places the delayed sound in sync with the tempo, but would this be the same for creating layered imaging. if a guitar player is at a distance from a wall of say, ten feet, and a bass player is twenty feet ( examples ) would not their echoes be heard differently, not necessarily in sync with the tempo?

[djui5]

for dotted notes you'd multiply the delay time by 1.333


for triplets you'd multiply the delay time by .6 I believe..not sure exactly

I always just pull up echofarm if I'm not sure......

[Mystr Tiger]

Just found this with a quick search - have not tried it, but it might be of interest. Careful - I do not know the site (found 'em just now), and being a freeware download it is best to proceed with caution. Perhaps someone else knows who they are and can vouch for them.

http://www.analogx.com/contents/down...udio/delay.htm


There were several other hits too - just search on "delay time calculator".

[drundall]

Originally posted by djui5
What takes time to get right?

To blend it in properly so it doesn't sound ****ed. Not talking about the math.

[djui5]

Originally posted by pan60
randy
this places the delayed sound in sync with the tempo, but would this be the same for creating layered imaging. if a guitar player is at a distance from a wall of say, ten feet, and a bass player is twenty feet ( examples ) would not their echoes be heard differently, not necessarily in sync with the tempo?

No....for this you would need to calculate the time it would take the sound to travel from the source to the destination...



sound travels at a speed of 1130 feet per second.....

[Mystr Tiger]

Sorry Cornvalley - looks like you beat me to it.

[djui5]

Originally posted by drundall
To blend it in properly so it doesn't sound ****ed. Not talking about the math.

I see.....


I hope I didn't offend you.....wasen't my intention at all...




panning is your friend :)

[pan60]

just add reverb, compression, and mix
ah imaging.

[djui5]

print this out if all else fails


http://www.saecollege.de/reference_m...eatimes%20.htm

[max cooper]

There's a cool blurb in Mix (AES issue, I think) about MW and Fletcher recording King's X. Some stuff about locating the kit between two buildings to get the slap timed right. It was a good reminder as I forget to use the physical world for this stuff sometimes.

[joeq]

http://www.wiseguysynth.com/larry/convert/bpm_table.htm is a nice table of BPM to milliseconds to Hertz conversions

I keep a copy of the page on my desktop

don't forget to try pushing and pulling the tempos. The exact values are not always the best sounding

[Drumsound]

I almost always set my delay times by ear. I have a couple reasons for this. First I don't' have a brain for math, second I can usually find what I’m looking for, and lastly I use a PCM 41 a lot and there's no readout for exact delay time.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by drundall
Hey Thrill, do you use a lot of timed (1/4's 1/8's, etc) mono delays in your mixes? I've stopped doing this but want to get back into it. Def takes some work to get it right.

Once in a while i do it but in general i do it by ear these days.

Makes things more randomn and less predictable.

Kinda what i'd like my life to be these days.

[picksail]

I recently, posted this very simple example of the Haas technique elsewhere on this forum:


I introduce the Haas effect into almost everything I mix. It works wonderfully on vocal tracks, as long as you ensure the source remains focused and with mono capabilities. It helps to create or simulate a more 'natural environment'. It can be used on multiple sources and helps to separate intruments without introducing false depth ie. reverb. And more importantly, no repeats.

My incredibly consice explanation of the Haas effect would be described as: Any delay between approximately 5-40ms.

1 ms=1 ft

Assuming the above equation is accurate, one could effectively simulate a room size of up to 40 ft without any echos.

This is the way I set it up (within ProTools):

1) Create a mono track
2) Create a stereo aux channel (set at Unity)
3) Assign the aux input to buss 1/2
4) Assign the aux output to Analog 1/2
5) Assign mono track to buss 1/2
6) Instantiate a stereo delay to the aux channel
7) Set the left side at 16 ms and the right side to 32 ms ( 100% wet, no feedback, depth, echo...nothing but delay in ms)
8) Adjust the track buss level/pan to taste

**This is a very simple example and not to be construed as the only way to apply this technique.

This also, works well with instruments panned hard with the delay panned to the opposite side.

I have actually, applied it to HH with a 10 ms delay. HH at 1 or 2 o'clock and delay panned hard left. Raising the level from infinity to the desired level. Just enough to where you hear it open up slightly on the left side. More or less just a perception of depth and space.

Give it a shot. Just remember to use this carefully and continue to check for phase coherency.

[joeq]

Originally posted by picksail


5) Assign mono track to buss 1/2

so the mono track is not directly going to analog 1/2 at all? just thru the delays?

[withintheflux]

[i]
Give it a shot. Just remember to use this carefully and continue to check for phase coherency. [/b]

generally if you were to find some phasing, how would you normally counter it?

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by withintheflux
generally if you were to find some phasing, how would you normally counter it?

Move it around until it sounds good.

Ah, the physical world- a reflection off a wood surface is a special kind of delay. A sweet reflection path (a long path) in a room with sufficient dimensions can induce pure pleasure and wellbeing in a way no canned delay can.

[Cornvalley]

Originally posted by picksail
1) Create a mono track
2) Create a stereo aux channel (set at Unity)
3) Assign the aux input to buss 1/2
4) Assign the aux output to Analog 1/2
5) Assign mono track to buss 1/2
6) Instantiate a stereo delay to the aux channel
7) Set the left side at 16 ms and the right side to 32 ms ( 100% wet, no feedback, depth, echo...nothing but delay in ms)
8) Adjust the track buss level/pan to taste

Also try lowering the side with the longer delay time about 6db. More natural representation of an actual space ... or so I've been told.

[jayremixer]

one nice trick is to pan the original signal to left, send it to a mony delay (pre) panned to the right. set the delay at 33ms, and put it out of phase. nice and wide, and still works in mono.

[chadly]

How strange this topic came up, I just pm'ed Jay Kahrs on this. I've always been looking for a way to get that super huge guitar sound.

My initial experiments yield this modern-rock lord-alge sort of thing. Do other people find that this is the ticket?

You've really got to watch the phase though . . .

[Bob Olhsson]

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hike!

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by Mike Tholen
dotted notes?
triplets?
what's the calc for those?
I've become used to these variations...and have been able to work with these values well.
It's easy having a delay box to do this calc for you.

For a dotted quarter it's a quarter plus half again. For triplets it's more complicated. For quarter note triplets it's the half note time divided by three. And so on.

I like using the dotted rhythms. Doesn't cloud the track too much but isn't so on-the-nose.

-R