PT certification:Good or Bad?

[NIGHT'SCHILD]

I have been very interested in taking a Pro Tools certification course and I found a place online called the Pro Tools Training Center a Pro Media Training Co.

First off, is this a legit company or not? Will this help me to build a client base? Has anybody ever dealt with these people?

They seem pretty legit but the classes cost around $3K plus I would have to fly out to Dallas and stay somewhere. I just want to make sure I am doing the righ thing before signing up.

Thanks

[GPl]

Try looking into Berklee Shool of Music. They have certs online. Would be a lot cheaper than 3k.

[Tibbon]

Oddly enough, while Berklee may offer them online, they don't find it important enough to get their real students PT certified, and are actually pretty Anti-PT in alot of classes from what i've seen. I know in at least one class, any use of a DAW is an automatic failure for the final project (Sound-alike project).

It really freaks me out what Berklee actually teaches their normal students, vs the rubbish that they spew off on people online, and in most of their publically published books. Berklee might sell a few books on subjects, but most of them (arranging, harmony, ear training, and protools for example) they don't use in class at all (unless you are buying the looseleaf books from the bookstore on the 1000 block of Bolyston St in Boston. Most of their really slick looking books that are "Berklee Press" books that they sell at Barnes and Noble are NOT, let me repeat, NOT what Berklee uses for instruction, and looking over the Sylabuses for the online classes... it's also not anything like what the classes teach...

[six_wax]

Originally posted by Tibbon
Oddly enough, while Berklee may offer them online, they don't find it important enough to get their real students PT certified, and are actually pretty Anti-PT in alot of classes from what i've seen. I know in at least one class, any use of a DAW is an automatic failure for the final project (Sound-alike project).

apologies in advance for the digression...

While there's no requirement that students in any program at Berklee actually get PT "certified", production (MPE) students are required to take a 2-credit, semester-long, project-driven class that focuses almost entirely on Pro Tools. It is used frequently in other production classes as well, and every student is, in fact, *required* to own an PTLE rig.

Most of the Berklee MPE instructors I've studied with place a priority on teaching a genuine production-cycle --as opposed to "never actually deciding anything until final mixdown", which is a common affliction in the DAW-driven world. Linear (read: outdated) formats are good enforcers of decision-making process, and are intermittently required for that purpose.

And fwiw, the "Soundalike" project mentioned above requires that the student recreate as accurately as possible one of several well-known recordings made *before 1975* ...so it's pretty easy to see why using a DAW would be inappropriate...

[Tibbon]

The final few students who didn't enter under the "Must own Mbox" rule are just about to graduate.

But yea, alot of the teachers are strong proponents of the 'Make a Decision Now', esp M. Benoff (awesome guy).

Oddly enough, i've have a few MP&E kids come through the studio that knew jack about PT (mainly ones that were in before the laptop required program).

And also, oddly enough, i've met more than one that didn't know crap about how to run a 2".

It's all a mixture, and certainly with the transition to laptops in the program recently it's made a difference.

But I regress. You are right. Not all the classes ban PT, but they do smile about doing things in a more linear fashion (which I myself am a big fan of).

My main point I guess was that the books that Berklee tries to sell via Berklee Press and the stuff on their website, are by no means substitute and are a poor representation of Berklee IMHO.

For example:
http://www.berkleepress.com/catalog/...?category_id=8
The 'Business' category from the Berklee Press website. I personally am finishing up a a Business Major there, and I haven't used a SINGLE one of the books, nor been recomended, nor required, nor heard these mentioned by any of the faculty.

Same for the guitar books, none of my teachers have ever expressed that I should pick up any of those books, with the exception of Melodic Rhythms. I've even taken from some of the teachers that have written one or two of those books, and they didn't recomend them. In fact I've only been recomended two books throughout my guitar instruction at Berklee- One was a book on Drop 2 Method by Charlie Chaplan (who God I hope is ok after everything, Haven't heard in a while... need to go ask the guitar department about him), and the book Melodic Rhythms.

Looking over the Productions books, I don't think that any of those books are on the required lists (although I could be wrong about that). Isn't mainly the SSL Manual, and a few books like Behind the Glass required reading instead of 'Producing in the Home with Protools LE'? Books like the Complete Guide to Film Scoring are an insult to every person that is in that Major (which in NO way can be encompassed in a single book)

I could be wrong for a few of these, I haven't taken every class, nor looked at Every sylabus, but I have a pretty good idea what's on the back shelves for the required/reccomended reading on the back shelves, and what's up front for 'everyone else'.

[Tibbon]

Originally posted by six_wax
a..... which is a common affliction in the DAW-driven world. Linear (read: outdated) formats are good enforcers of decision-making process, and are intermittently required for that purpose.

Shudders, and I can't stand it when people call linear methods and formats outdated (stares my beautiful JH-24 that I love working with and sounds better in the bass at 15ips that PT ever will). I could give up the Apogee and Benchmark convertors, but I don't think i could give up the sound of tape, nor the workflow of it.

[six_wax]

Originally posted by Tibbon
Shudders, and I can't stand it when people call linear methods and formats outdated...

caveats for analog tape, definitely! DA-88 otoh...

damn straight on the low end at 15ips. even a precocious naive like me can hear that!

[Kestral]

I just spent the weekend engineering a recording session for a top tier producer/engineer (who has killer Pro Tools chops) who also happens to be a songwriter/musician. He needed someone to run the Pro Tools (and man the mixing board and be the producer when he was in "artist" mode).

Learned more this weekend than any Pro Tools certification course will ever teach.

PS: I love how drums and bass sound at 15 ips.

[djgout]

as somebody who is currently in berklee (no i didn't fall under the mbox requirement but i've had one since they came out) i can tell you that it doesn't matter what program or format the classes teach at berklee or any other school. the kids with the talent and motivation are going to already know how to use the equipment probably atleast as well as the teacher because they'll do everything they can to get as much time using it as they can and reading about it too. there is a semester long protools class, which is also kinda made worthless by the kids who have never done anything with it, it sucks having to sit there eachweek and learn the basics of a program that you've spent hours getting really deep into for your own creative experience. enough of a rant though.

to throw in my 2cents about the topic, i don't think the berklee protools certificate is gonna be that much cheaper than anywhere else. it's a digidesign instructional program. the info about it is on the digi site. basically at the end of the courses provided you pass the tests they'll allow you to use their logo on your flyers and business cards and say that you are certified. if you're the type of person who can't sit down with the manual and mess around with the program it'd be worth it i think to have the structured classes, it'll just be boring if you've ever gotten into it in depth before.
-justin

[Bob Olhsson]

Certification won't get anybody a job. What it will do is make schools qualify for federal student loan programs.

[GPl]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
Certification won't get anybody a job. What it will do is make schools qualify for federal student loan programs.

How true.

I never went to Berkelee, just for some reason, I keep getting e-mails from them even after I un-subscribed and they are pushing the online certs hard(my son was checking it out, but passed on it)! Personally I went to Trebas back in the 80's/early 80's.

[Tibbon]

I'd have gone to BU if i'd know better, or some other business school. My roommate out of MIT at least can apply for real jobs I don't know of a single studio that is actually advertising Engineers Needed! but yet for some reason Robotics Engineering Majors seem to be able to grap a pretty good mint. My friend at Harvard doesn't seem to be concerned for paying off student loans, etc afterward (nor is anyone at harvard that I know of), but yet Berklee's came close to losing accredidation a few times.... (at least that's what i've heard pretty directly through the grapevine)

Edit:
And some of you might say "Do what you love, not what makes the most money", but at the same time... If i could have gotten a phat job right outta school, and gotten my loans paid off... i'd be one step closer to being able to have an SSL in my living room (average Harvard grad i think makes over 250K/yr after 10 years, while Berklee refuses to publish ANY statistics on how much their Alums/Grads make... with money like that coming in... I could buy up some of these studios going southward and put them in my living room, but going to Berklee, at best i'll work for one of the ones going south)

[StefanColson]

What Berklee really needs is some sort of partnership with a real school, offering a joint AE and EE degree. I'm there right now majoring in Film Scoring and MP&E (Music Production and Engineering), and the lack of basic electronics knowledge from almost all of the students is appaling. If you are going to go to the trouble of getting a Bachelors degree, you should be able to read schematics, and atleast have some basic electronics theory under your belt. The way things are now I'm probably going to have to get a masters in EE so that I don't end up starving (atleast I have a backup to engineering... Oh wait, it's composing, or even worse: playing the trumpet...).

[Tibbon]

Wow. I figured i was the only one ever at Berklee that cared a bit about EE and similar. Most students i know would hate it, and oppose the very idea, because they might have to know more than Algerbra I and simple Geometry (remember that Joke of a math prof test?)

I think all of us Berklee Gearslutz should get together for lunch one day, and swap cards, trade stories, and perhaps kick each other a litle work.

I'm normally the overdressed guy around Berklee who looks like he spent too much on his clothes, and not enough time on his Eatraining

[Sharp11]

During my years at Berklee, 1975-1979, the studio (which was located in the basement under the Performance Center) was 8 track analog, the electronic music lab featured patch cord synths and long nights were spent copying (and transposing) parts for real musicians to play.

There was no such thing as PT or any DAW for that matter, but the knowledge gained from such wonderful teachers as Ken Pulig, Tony Texiera, Bob Rose, Bob Chestnut, Keith Copeland, Gary Burton, Paul Schmelling, Mike Gibbs ,etc al; in the art of traditional composition and instrumental mastery has given me a leg up in my world of PT and the daily grind of composing and producing music for network television.

Because those guys taught me to think, adding a DAW back in the early 90's was a piece of cake (and a no-brainer).

I haven't been back to Berklee in awhile, but if their PT course is of the same high standard as their arranging/harmony and private lessons/classes were, I'd highly recommend taking a look.

[Sharp11]

Originally posted by Tibbon
I'd have gone to BU if i'd know better, or some other business school. My roommate out of MIT at least can apply for real jobs I don't know of a single studio that is actually advertising Engineers Needed!

And that's the way it's always been. Very few musicians and engineers "walk" into jobs right out of school, you have to "make" your own career.

You might very well be at that point where many of us found ourselves while at Berklee (Beserklee), I recall almost dropping out at the end of year two.

Talk to your advisors, Berklee is a place you go to learn. Period. It's not comparable to Hardvard/Yale etc., those schools ain't going to show you how to voice an upper structure triad or how to reharmonize a tune ----- backwards!!!

[Curve Dominant]

posted by NIGHT'SCHILD:
[b]NIGHT'SCHILD:
I have been very interested in taking a Pro Tools certification course...

Will this help me to build a client base?

Maybe when there are snowballs in hell, but even then, don't count on it.

Here's how to build a client base:

1) Make a recording of an artist which does something to help their career. (Expect to recieve little or no financial compensation at this phase.)

2) Find ways to communicate news of that success to other artists, and the music industry at large if possible.

3) Make recordings of more artists which help their careers.

4) Communicate news of those successes to artists and the music industry.

5) Go back to step #3, and continue the cycle.

It really is that simple.

Certificates on the walls of doctors', lawyers', and accountants' offices, are there to reassure their clients that they are recieving a service which is bound by strict rules.

In contemporary music production, however, rules are the enemy. Innovation must be a perpetual endeavor, and success always speaks for itself.

I have an extremely valuable certificate hanging on the wall of my studio, but it doesn't come from any school or company or training resource.

It is a poster of my latest client, inscribed and autographed by her with an endorsement which no certificate could possibly match, and no advertisement could possibly buy.

THAT is a certificate which will help you build a client base. Get enough of those, and you will be turning clients away.

[rr1073]

Sharp11:
I totally agree with you. I graduated from Berklee in 1975 and also studied with the aforementioned people. (Don't forget Herb Pomery) I'm in the studio every single day and I constantly utilize the things I learned from them.

[NIGHT'SCHILD]

Well, I am not sure what to do!

I have been using Pro Tools seriously for a few years and I know the program really well, but I want to give my clients the confidence that I really know my stuff and I am serious. How else do you get just anybody off the street to believe you a a good engineer?

As for Curve Dominant's statements I have worked with many artists whom have had success like Slum Village from Detroit and they have given me lots of business via word of mouth. I need to attract the common man walking down the street, or people I meet at shows.

I am not worried about getting word of mouth customers I want to be able to draw new customers with confidence. Like somebody said earlier I want to be able to put the Pro Tools Certfied logo on my business cards and use it as ONE of my selling points for my studio.

[Sharp11]

Originally posted by rr1073
Sharp11:
I totally agree with you. I graduated from Berklee in 1975 and also studied with the aforementioned people. (Don't forget Herb Pomery) I'm in the studio every single day and I constantly utilize the things I learned from them.

How could I forget Herb?

I believe he retired just recently.

Nice web site you've got there.

[Curve Dominant]

As for Curve Dominant's statements I have worked with many artists whom have had success like Slum Village from Detroit and they have given me lots of business via word of mouth. I need to attract the common man walking down the street, or people I meet at shows.

Why not just list some of those names on your business card?

Successful reccording/production means understanding the artist's needs, and then doing whatever you can do to serve those needs.

There is NO certificate which guarantees someone can do this. Pro Tools courses do not teach you how to listen.

[rr1073]

Thanks, Ed. Herb certainly paid his dues...man he was tough! But I loved it...

[Sharp11]

Originally posted by rr1073
Thanks, Ed. Herb certainly paid his dues...man he was tough! But I loved it...

I never took Herb's line writing course, opting instead for Tony Tex's backwards reharmonization technique.

At the time, I felt the two techniques arrived at the same place, essentially allowing one to write five independent lines as a soli.

I liked the freedom and speed of Tex's technique.

Herb's class had all the prestige, though, and I often wish I had it under my belt, however, a good friend of mine did take it and really liked what we were doing in Tony's class.

I only had time for one or the other, so......

[StefanColson]

Herb's not teaching line writing anymore (or any classes for that matter), but he started leading a student band again last year (a reduced big band). There really isn't anything like the line writing class anymore (or the reverse reharm). Infact, I don't think Berklee is quite the monster writing school that it used to be. There's still a lot of great stuff here, but there really isn't anyone kicking your ass like there used to be. The school is populated by a large percentage of hack musicians that can't really play (and don't really play), don't have a good harmonic foundation, and sort of skate their way through school (or dropout). There are still some really dedicated, talented musicians, composers, etc, but they're getting to be few and far between.
The school is still the best place around for a contemporary music education, but there are some definite issues that could stand to be addressed. MP&E has been a dissapointment, but it seems like they are working on it and things are getting better. Jaczko seems like he really cares, and things look to be moving in the right direction. And there's finally an electronics oriented course starting up next semester (Principles of loudspeaker design), being taught by a former Bose-Mackie-KOI engineer (Mike Abraham). The course is aimed at designing a passive monitor from scratch and having each student build a pair by the end of the semester. I just hope the students in the class have (or will seek out) the basics before we start so that half the semester isn't spent on "This is a resistor...".
The harmony classes are really good once you get past the required Harmony 1-4 stuff. The traditional stuff is great too (again once you get past the requirements), and there are some great ensembles to play in (and some great performance faculty). Plus the atmosphere is what it's about, being able to make connections with so many people that are trying to get into a music career.

Hey Tibbon, we should definitely get together for lunch some day. I'm always into going to that little Indian buffet next to Supremes. Shoot me an email. Are there many other current Berklee students here?

[Poutine]

Originally posted by NIGHT'SCHILD
I have been very interested in taking a Pro Tools certification course and I found a place online called the Pro Tools Training Center a Pro Media Training Co.

First off, is this a legit company or not? Will this help me to build a client base? Has anybody ever dealt with these people?

They seem pretty legit but the classes cost around $3K plus I would have to fly out to Dallas and stay somewhere. I just want to make sure I am doing the righ thing before signing up.

Thanks

To return to your question for a moment, (no offense all you Beantown vets!!)
If this is the Digi certified program; here's my opinion
Went to Flint Mi. (now I know why Mike Moore is obese & bitter) took the 2 advanced courses only, to evaluate program for an employer:
I've used PT for multitrack album production since '97. Have teaching exp. too

Instructor was very good: Legit Nashville credits: Dixie Chix, etc.
Knew his stuff, could communicate clearly and had good personality

Room had about 7 HD systems; most Mac, one or 2 PC, with about 4 Control 24 units: Roughly 10 students, who ranged from rank beginner to somewhat experienced, older musicians:

Long days with 1 lunchbreak
Each component was demo'd with large screen projector shot of instructor's system, then ea. student went through exercise while instructor circulated, explaining and helping

Would help if you had basic prior engineering concepts
Good accompanying documentation/workbook for ea. course level
You could prob teach yourself IF:
your were really motivated,
knew what all the stuff was you had to learn
had solid workbooks to follow
could rely on an experienced PT/engineer person to answer questions

The certification is done online: their tests are very thorough; most don't pass first try. I think you have to renew it annually.

NOW - will all this get you gigs??

This is a biz based on your connections getting people into your room or your foot through their door: Once inside, you walk the talk, or no framed paper on your wall is gonna do a thing...
Some institutional employers might give the certification credence (corporate culture issues) but in most cases, I think a potential employer is gonna sense within about 10 min whether you are worth hiring. Ditto for experienced potential clients:
For the rest, b-s baffles brains everytime, so the cert. won't matter either whichway.

good luck

[Tibbon]

I'd say if the class was ACTUALLY worth taking online from Berklee, that they would gladly give students credit for taking them...

However, Berklee will give students NO credit for classes they take online, unlike at many other colleges that offer online classes for credit.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by NIGHT'SCHILD
How else do you get just anybody off the street to believe you a a good engineer?

Studios and engineers are booked almost 100% by word of mouth. Fletcher put this the best I've ever heard, "it's all about who knows what you know."

I've been engineering for 40 years and I still get work from two of the musicians who played on the very first session I visited in 1963! I can't emphasize the importance of interning enough.

[Tibbon]

Originally posted by Sharp11
And that's the way it's always been. Very few musicians and engineers "walk" into jobs right out of school, you have to "make" your own career.

You might very well be at that point where many of us found ourselves while at Berklee (Beserklee), I recall almost dropping out at the end of year two.

Talk to your advisors, Berklee is a place you go to learn. Period. It's not comparable to Hardvard/Yale etc., those schools ain't going to show you how to voice an upper structure triad or how to reharmonize a tune ----- backwards!!!

Actually, Harvard has a pretty kick assed music program (also see that Harvard Music Dictonary on your shelf?). Not sure about Yale.

[HudHudson]

The Yale School of Music has some outstanding composing and performance instruction programs and has graduated some amazing musicians (Sharon Isbin, Anthony Davis, Eliot Fisk, Jane Bloom, to name a few; I got my undergraduate degree there but not in music). And New Haven is also the hometown of Michael Bolton (sorry, I digress...).

[dreamaudio]

I actually took the Pro Media course...but not online...and am now certified...

I thought overall it was a good class, with a great trainer(some big guy from Nashville, forgot his name)....

don't know if it was worth 3k...but it was worth my time.

brian.