questions for a mix engineer

[MichaelT]

I'm about to start recording my own album and have been looking ahead at a particular mix engineer. My budget will probably end up being around 10K-12K for about 10-11 songs. I'm not sure if I should mention the name of the mix engineer I've been looking at, but he's someone who I really respect not only in the records he produces, but also the records he's mixed (stuff you've probably heard). I called up his management group and talked to his "agent." She told me there's never a specific rate he has, because every project's negotiable (between rates and points, etc...), also depending on how much he likes what he hears and believes in the project.

Let's assume that he likes it. This is probably an unanswerable question apart from him, so let me direct this to you guys just to get an idea: You've worked on some very successful albums, you probably make about $2.5-3K per mix, yet someone comes along with my budget to mix an entire album. What goes through your mind? I'm basically just looking for thoughts on how a mix engineer on that level thinks when "smaller" projects knock on the door. In the same breath, taking less pay, how willing are you to put as much work into it as stuff you've done for considerably more pay, and even do a recall for a couple songs if I find that tones are good, but I wanted certain instruments louder or softer? BTW, you have your own studio that you produce and mix at, so going to an external studio is not in the agenda. Yet, for everything the budget is 10-12K. Any thoughts? I hope I made sense! Thanks, guys!

-Mike

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by MichaelT
I'm about to start recording my own album and have been looking ahead at a particular mix engineer. My budget will probably end up being around 10K-12K for about 10-11 songs. I'm not sure if I should mention the name of the mix engineer I've been looking at, but he's someone who I really respect not only in the records he produces, but also the records he's mixed (stuff you've probably heard). I called up his management group and talked to his "agent." She told me there's never a specific rate he has, because every project's negotiable (between rates and points, etc...), also depending on how much he likes what he hears and believes in the project.

Let's assume that he likes it. This is probably an unanswerable question apart from him, so let me direct this to you guys just to get an idea: You've worked on some very successful albums, you probably make about $2.5-3K per mix, yet someone comes along with my budget to mix an entire album. What goes through your mind? I'm basically just looking for thoughts on how a mix engineer on that level thinks when "smaller" projects knock on the door. In the same breath, taking less pay, how willing are you to put as much work into it as stuff you've done for considerably more pay, and even do a recall for a couple songs if I find that tones are good, but I wanted certain instruments louder or softer? BTW, you have your own studio that you produce and mix at, so going to an external studio is not in the agenda. Yet, for everything the budget is 10-12K. Any thoughts? I hope I made sense! Thanks, guys!

-Mike

If the guy is used to making double what you are offering than he'd probably recommend to have him mix some of the cuts at his normal rate(singles, crucial tunes on records) and have someone else mix the fillers.


That way you can stretch out the budget and get the project done.

You have to understand, he has to pay himself, the agent(or lawyer/manager) and an assistant.

That's what i would do(or have done in the past).

Also for me personally, i hate to say this but having to haggle with people on a budget is the worst.

I rather just be payed for the service and not deal with their financial issues or worries.

[EngineEars]

Mike

I do records for your budget all the time. For me one of the main differences between mixing a record with a major label budget vs. one with a much lesser is:

- the use of outboard gear
- the amount of versions I can print
- the use of an assistant.

“For me” my ITB mixes don’t sound as good as my OTB mixes, which take longer. On the flip side, ITB recalls are a Godsend and the lack of having to recall and patch outboard efx, eq’s and comps really speeds things along. There’s not a mix in the world that didn’t need a tweak here or there, regardless of the budget.

Also if you need 5 to 8 versions of each song, that will take a whole day to print, of a full length CD. Wouldn't you rather have better versions of the main pass? Let’s say you spent just two more hours on your four best songs, instead of a day printing acapellas, instrumental, TV, etc. If you need them then you need them, but if you don’t your CD will sound a lot better.

There’s not an OTB mix I’ve done that hasn’t benefited from the use of an assistant, but if the budget isn’t there what do you do? Like Thrill advises, do your singles or best songs with the money guy and hire “me” for the rest!!!

My only problem with doing lower budget projects, other than making less money is, my name still appears on the CD and I wish to represent my best work at all times. Bottom line is this is a question of money vs. art. The never ending quest for excellence that torture the best of us, both technical and creative. I hope some of this helps and good luck!!! Post your results when your project is finished.

[juniorhifikit]

Agree with above.

The less money that's available, the more the mixer is personally investing in the future of the project. If I like a project and think it will fair well, I'll take points and less money. If there's not much money and the material doesn't speak to me (or worse, I think it's not special at all), I'll pass.

With that budget, the name brand mixer is going to gobble up most of it - leaving almost nothing for the B - team mixer. Maybe dig a little deaper and find someone who is unknown and hungry, but kicks ass. They're out there.

[Henchman]

I agree with juniorhifi.
I see people makig this mistake all the time. They think that spending 2 weeks in a facility that is worldclass will give them a better record.
They don't understand that it's time that can be more important, not the space or gear.

Don't overextend your budget theyw ay you are. 10k to mix an entire record by an a-list engineer is pushing it IMO. And usually what will happen is, he'lll mix 2 songs a day. You'll get what you get. No recalls or input.

[MichaelT]

Thanks guys for the replies so far. In terms of a world class studio, this guy has gear, but does most work out of his house. I'm basing my decision to try to get him because when I listen to stuff he's done, it makes me go "Wow, I love this music, and I also love the way everything blends together." I lot of my favorite drum sounds come from his albums. In the end I feel like I would trust him with my music, and I can be very picky and protective when it comes to my stuff so that's a big step for me!

I've been spending a lot of time considering what my needs are with this project and afterwards. I have some good gear that in the end I could sell and move the mix budget up to about 20K, but I have to really think about what my needs will be production-wise after my project. Example: Will I miss that compressor? Will I miss that reverb? Or can I get by for now with just this comp for this and this plugin for that, etc.?

This project is my dream, my baby. I've gotten a whole lot of third party compliments on my songwriting and everbody always asked me how my albums coming, being anxious to buy it...it's very humbling! In the end I think I'll come to some compromises that will treat it right, and hopefully be able to keep some good gear around for future stuff! Thanks again for the input!

[Henchman]

I also just noticed you want to record your own album.

Are you an experienced engineer?

What about producing? Lot's of experience ther as well?

A great record is made nby a great team.

Good engineer, Good producer.

Without the previous 2, a great mixer won't do much good.

[MichaelT]

Yeah, I should have clarified that! I'm producing along with a very talented co-producer friend of mine. The engineer is also a friend of mine here in Orlando. Both of my cohorts are extremely talented, just not well known...I say that with a big YET!

I can't really comment on my personal talents as a producer and engineer. I've gotten great compliments for both (from people who know what they're talking about)...more so for producing than engineering, but for both.

When conceiving doing this project, I put a lot of thought into who would be good enough to make it happen, and I was fortunate enough to not have to look terribly far. Even with an unlimited budget, these guys would still probably be my first choices...I like working with them that much!

[MichaelT]

Hey Randy, I sent you a PM.

[stealthbalance]

Originally posted by Henchman

A great record is made nby a great team.

Good engineer, Good producer.

Without the previous 2, a great mixer won't do much good. [/b]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

or just the opposite , and will save the album and make the hacks look like geniuses.

s

[chap]

I mix and produce for major labels and small artists all the time. I use the 'intuitive' billing method. This usually works but if the artist doesn't understand it - it blows.
I need an assistant and most mixers do too.
You should expect that your guy will want his assistant. It's like having great gear. The assistant can keep things moving because he knows my habits. He has great ears and will get my back if I miss something ("Uh, there's no snare drum").

Most guys will use the triangle and the triangle can benefit you if you're patient.
Here's the triangle: price, quality, time.
You get to choose any two of those three.
If you want all three, I go out of business.
If you're willing to be patient and can catch this guys ear, he can use your project to plug in little holes in his schedule and you benefit by getting quality mixes at a reasonable rate. You may get last minute cancellations because the mixer can make 2 or 3 times what you're paying him. If you're cool with that, he'll appreciate your patience and you'll get more time.
The other thing is that you mentioned his drum sounds. Remember, he's mixing your drum sounds. He may have some signature tricks but if the tracking isn't well done, all those tricks won't help so track as good as you can and ask him how he likes to get his tracks before you start recording.
good luck!!
chap

[dave-G]

Mike,

I think you're getting some really good responses above. I also mix for a living, and from the perspective of my humble position in the "food chain", your situation is not at all uncommon, and I see your thinking as being on the right track. I hate to haggle too, but sometimes if I feel strongly about a project, or the person behind it, I will work for a reduced rate in exchange for above-average points (or sometimes even a small sliver of publishing or other sales/use driven revenues), until I recoup an agreed upon, attributed value for my services; what you "would have" paid me at full-rate. Handled properly, this approach can also defuse some tension, converting "underpayment" into "investment".

As to wondering whether mixers who have agreed to work for a cut-rate will do cut-rate work, I dunno, but I think there's usually something in the personality-type of a mixing engineer that would prevent it! Maybe some defective gene -- we care too much . I bust my ass even on the spec'est of the spec, either because I just can't turn off the switch that makes me care about how things sound... or simply on the off-chance that it might become a serious calling card.

Hey, I'm not far from you! I say this not necessarily to pimp my services to you, but if you want to bounce any ideas around or discuss the process further, I'm around! I've PM'ed you my contact info.

Good luck with your project, however you end up doing it!
-dave

[jlotto]

check ur PM

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by dave-G
I will work for a reduced rate in exchange for above-average points (or sometimes even a small sliver of publishing or other sales/use driven revenues), until I recoup an agreed upon, attributed value for my services; what you "would have" paid me at full-rate. Handled properly, this approach can also defuse some tension, converting "underpayment" into "investment".

-dave

Dave quick question for you(and other guys can chime in also)...

I personally have stopped doing projects based on getting less upfront and more on the back end(points and publishing).

The reason being there is no guarantee the album will see the light of day anymore(even if its on a major), nowadays albums get promoted heavily for around 2 weeks and if nothing major shows up on the soundscan its basically put on the shelf.

Also if the artist is independent what are the chances they will move enough units for you to recoup your expenses?

I know the truth is by working this way you get less upfront but at least its guaranteed money that you can see(and paybills with).

Are you guys thinking like this these days or is ot just me?

To be honest when i meet a manager/producer or artist and they start talking getting points in exchange for mix work i cringe.

Its tough to say no because they take it as an insult.

Its like to them you are saying "i don't believe in your work enough that it will sell" which is not really true, but i think you guys get the point.

[Henchman]

Originally posted by dave-G


As to wondering whether mixers who have agreed to work for a cut-rate will do cut-rate work, I dunno, but I think there's usually something in the personality-type of a mixing engineer that would prevent it! Maybe some defective gene -- we care too much . I bust my ass even on the spec'est of the spec, either because I just can't turn off the switch that makes me care about how things sound... or simply on the off-chance that it might become a serious calling card.


-dave

That's why i'm glad I have my main Audio-post gig. I don't have to take gigs based on the budget. I take them based on wether I like the project and the artist.

[juniorhifikit]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
... there is no guarantee the album will see the light of day anymore(even if its on a major), nowadays albums get promoted heavily for around 2 weeks and if nothing major shows up on the soundscan its basically put on the shelf.

Also if the artist is independent what are the chances they will move enough units for you to recoup your expenses...

Are you guys thinking like this these days or is ot just me?

To be honest when i meet a manager/producer or artist and they start talking getting points in exchange for mix work i cringe.

Its tough to say no because they take it as an insult.

Its like to them you are saying "i don't believe in your work enough that it will sell" which is not really true, but i think you guys get the point.

I'm lately doing the lower paying gigs to fill in holes in the schedule, and ask that they be patient. I'm also limiting the number of recalls. Even though I'm doing quite a bit inside ProTools and the recalls are a breeze, I can't be chasing after the "what if's" at a low rate.

[drew]

Originally posted by Henchman
That's why i'm glad I have my main Audio-post gig. I don't have to take gigs based on the budget. I take them based on wether I like the project and the artist.

but how do you do the work if/when you get it when you're 9-5ing it? I've been self employed for 13 years and couldn't have it any other way.

I agree with Thrill about the points stuff. Managers and label guys use that all the time as a way to beat you up on the upfront price. They think it's a carrot they're dangling, I'd call it a steaming turd!!!!

[dave-G]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Dave quick question for you(and other guys can chime in also)...

I personally have stopped doing projects based on getting less upfront and more on the back end(points and publishing).

The reason being there is no guarantee the album will see the light of day anymore(even if its on a major), nowadays albums get promoted heavily for around 2 weeks and if nothing major shows up on the soundscan its basically put on the shelf.

Sad, ain't it?

Also if the artist is independent what are the chances they will move enough units for you to recoup your expenses?

Part of the contract I use has a section with different proportions for independent sales, since it's no longer based on a piece of 15%. But even still, it's most often wishful thinking, and it's pretty damn rare to have an artist whose independent sales bookkeeping is done well enough to actually get your payments.

I know the truth is by working this way you get less upfront but at least its guaranteed money that you can see(and paybills with).

Are you guys thinking like this these days or is ot just me?

It's not just you. It used to be that I would be willing to work out a deal like I mentioned every once in a while, but I've been noticing that the ratio of bill-paying work to wishful-thinking work is not where I'd like it to be. It's easy to get stuck in this mode--repeat clients come back expecting a similar deal, the "bigger project" that the cut-rate gig was supposed to become now becomes another cut-rate gig with "bigger upside"... uggh.

Nonetheless, I often find that the lower dollar gigs I've been involved with are more creatively satisfying than some of the full-rate gigs, and become the stuff I show-off more proudly... Baah!

To be honest when i meet a manager/producer or artist and they start talking getting points in exchange for mix work i cringe.

Its tough to say no because they take it as an insult.

Its like to them you are saying "i don't believe in your work enough that it will sell" which is not really true, but i think you guys get the point.

Completely. The other part of the problem is how every artist and every producer is now at least moderately DAW-savvy and equipped to the point that they're doing their own engineering ... so, when you try to hold fast to your rates, they'll often do the "B" mixing themselves and only bring you on for a few songs ... Then, regardless of whether or not they're good at it, you might become even less a part of the picture for their next project. After all, now that their budget has "forced" them to mix some of their stuff, they're becoming interested in learning/growing as "mixers" themselves!

Mastering: the final frontier!

-dave

[chap]

I agree with you thrill.
That's why the triangle seems to work.
That, and being upfront about the time you can afford to offer at a lower rate. Many times I'll be into a project and the client will be there at a discount. There have been several times when I've been dressed down by some manager going to law school or a client who just 'knows' this is a hit if we make such and such a deadline. They get uptight when I say "next Wednesday is out because I've got a corporate gig". Then you get subjected to the art vs. commerce lecture.
If all of this is explained beforehand, I just hold up the triangle (I keep one at the desk) and that's usually enough. Most people are good natured enough to realize when they've crossed a line.
peace,
chap

[Henchman]

Originally posted by drew
but how do you do the work if/when you get it when you're 9-5ing it? I've been self employed for 13 years and couldn't have it any other way.

If someone has a buddget that justifies me taking a leave of absence for a couple of weeks, then I'll do that.

But usually they don't. they work 9-5 jobs themselves, so it's pretty easy to do the work. Especially the mix part.As I'll do 90% of the work at home on my Nuendo system, then go into the studio for a day or 2 to do the finals.
Then the artists can listen to it for awhile, and I can still easily do small tweaks after the fact without evr going back into the studio.

It really is quite cost effective for those on a li,ited budget.