Recording set-up advice

[Kmotr]

I'm completely new to recording. I'm trying to decide on what my recording set-up should be. I'm into old-school hip hop and would like for my recordings to have that sound. It seems that a computer set-up is pretty much what most people choose these days, but I know that most of my favorite albums were recorded on analog tape.

I haven't decided on what to get (a lot of conflicting information out there) because I have no experience with recording and can't draw my own conclusion based on what I read. All I have at this point is MPC60, SP1200 and Tascam M-320 mixer. I'd like to achieve the sound of early to mid '90s albums. As an example, think Wu-Tang's first album "Enter the Wu-Tang 36 Chambers".

What do you guys think I should do?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Kmotr
I'd like to achieve the sound of early to mid '90s albums. As an example, think Wu-Tang's first album "Enter the Wu-Tang 36 Chambers".

What do you guys think I should do?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Get an Ensoniq ASR-10(which was used all over that album).

All of the Wu had them back then(and still do).

[Kmotr]

Thanks for your advice. I've been thinking about getting ASR for some time, but do you think that if they used the same ASR-10 samples, but everything was recorded in software, the album would sound the same?

I suspect that the recording methods are as important as the actual samplers. I like the sound of my SP1200 and MPC60.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Kmotr
Thanks for your advice. I've been thinking about getting ASR for some time, but do you think that if they used the same ASR-10 samples, but everything was recorded in software, the album would sound the same?

I suspect that the recording methods are as important as the actual samplers. I like the sound of my SP1200 and MPC60.

Its both actually.

They didn't call Rizza Bobby Digital for nothing.

All of the Wu used ASR's even their smaller clans and i worked with them all(and i could share some stories).

Basically that and maybe an Akai S950(for the filter) or an SP1200, but mostly ASR.

The ASR has a certain feel to its quantization.

Soundwise to me it was ok.

Back then stuff was done on analog and Adats.

It was a while ago, but i do remember tracking stuff to Adats.

Some stuff was dumped to analog and some stuff was mixed directly of adats.

You'd be surprised how many of the 90's rap records were done on Adats.

In my opinion that was their best album and everything else has gone downhill from then.

They got the fancy studio with a 9098(which they hated to death), which was like a boat anchor around theirs and Ameks necks.

Ugh..the stories.

[Kmotr]

In my opinion that was their best album and everything else has gone downhill from then.

I agree 100% with you....

So what do you suggest I do? Everyone I asked about ADAT's told me to stay away from them. If I track to ADAT, what's the next step? Could you break it down for me? I'm brand new to recording....

I also heard about people combinig analog and digital. They track to tape and then they dump everything into software for editing. What do you think about that method?

Did you actually work with Wu-Tang?

Ugh..the stories.

Feel free to share

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Kmotr
I agree 100% with you....

So what do you suggest I do? Everyone I asked about ADAT's told me to stay away from them. If I track to ADAT, what's the next step? Could you break it down for me? I'm brand new to recording....

I also heard about people combinig analog and digital. They track to tape and then they dump everything into software for editing. What do you think about that method?

Did you actually work with Wu-Tang?


Feel free to share

I would never suggest working to Adats.

That kinda torture i only reserve for my worst enemies(or clients that get on my nerves).

I love analog for Rap, only problem is lack of tracks.

Also the days of syncing up an analog machine with a computer and a Drum machine have passed me by.

I posted in another thread that alot of the techniques that are used today in the modern production and mixing techniques, guys who were tracking and mixing rap were doing long ago.

This whole movement of getting stuff right going in we were doing back in the day to squeeze whatever fidelity out of lowly drum machine samplers back in the day(SP1200's especially).

Also since the early stuff was tracked to analog we were processing synth tracks through all kinda gear to make mixing easier.

This is when engineers actually took pride in their tracking(even synths) and passing the project to the next guy.

You never knew who was listening on down the line and alot of times some of the mixers would hire you track projects they were going to be working on.

This was your chance to work closely with a great mixer and learn some tricks and have them critique your stuff.

I worked back then with some really great guys and they even through some smaller mixing projects by my way(and we are talking about lesser cuts on people's albums).

As well as all of the splits and mults you had to do when mixing, to squeeze and seperate the kick,snare or bass out of a sampled loop.

Have i worked with the Wu family?

Yes i have.

I've recorded out of their studio also.

What was it like?

The guys as individuals are great.

They are all unique and have their own thing.

That was never the problem.

Now dealing with the smaller Wu clans...uhh...

Lets just say, just make sure everything in the studio is bolted to the floor.

Make sure nothing can suddenly grow legs and walk away.

I just know there is a reason i retired from working with rap and some of those days just helped speed the decision along.

[Kmotr]

Well, you're another person telling me to stay away from ADAT. Since that's what was used on the albums I like, what should I substitute it with?

I sent you a PM....

Thanks!

[Kmotr]

Anyone else?

Thanks....

[King Tubby]

That sound of the Wu's first album was the crunchy old Peavy console at Firehouse NYC.Rza use ta love recording ta Adats...at 1 point he had about 12 of them at various locations. As far as them hating the Amek 9098 "Which was giving us a headache" That was because we couldn't get support fast enough for the as I see it "prototype"
That Rza purchased. Thrill if ya rememba...Rza brought that console off the aes floor way b4 they were out...and to top it off had it in storage for 2 years. No matter where the Wu record they are always after that grunge demo like quality they are known for...they might ask for that "as I have heard them say" Bad Boy Big Sound ...but always end up having da Grunge....Plus for a long time 12 bit and 16bit sample was the norm for dem....Do some bit crunching on yer sounds and tons of filtering and layering of samples and then "f" it some more and there ya go Wuish sounding ish!


Tkae

[Kmotr]

Thanks. I mean I love that Wu sound, but I used it only as a reference.....

Since my samplers are 12bit, I think the sound coming out of them should be fine.

I have an old Tascam M-320 mixer, which is no Peavy console. Do you think my Tascam might "help" the sound?

What do you suggest I do as far as recording my stuff? Tape deck, DAW?

[Your Add Here!]

Any old shitty digital equipment should do.

[Kmotr]

As I said earlier, I have no experience with recording, but I doubt that "old shitty digital" equipment wil give me this sound.

I think it was actually the analog gear that contributed to the sound, but I don't know for sure .....

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by King Tubby
That sound of the Wu's first album was the crunchy old Peavy console at Firehouse NYC.Rza use ta love recording ta Adats...at 1 point he had about 12 of them at various locations. As far as them hating the Amek 9098 "Which was giving us a headache" That was because we couldn't get support fast enough for the as I see it "prototype"
That Rza purchased. Thrill if ya rememba...Rza brought that console off the aes floor way b4 they were out...and to top it off had it in storage for 2 years. No matter where the Wu record they are always after that grunge demo like quality they are known for...they might ask for that "as I have heard them say" Bad Boy Big Sound ...but always end up having da Grunge....Plus for a long time 12 bit and 16bit sample was the norm for dem....Do some bit crunching on yer sounds and tons of filtering and layering of samples and then "f" it some more and there ya go Wuish sounding ish!


Tkae

KT is right on.

Back in the day, the way we got samples to be so tight on the SP or any of the older samplers/drum machines was we filtered,compressed and gated the sh*t out of the records. This is because the 8 bit technology and lower sampling rates would eat up all of the fidelity. You'd juiced up the hi's on the record,sampled it and when you played it back the samples had instant fidelity.

I remember learning about this concept when making samples for people for the old Ensoniq Mirage.

KT, i could never figure out why Yoram at Firehouse had so much cool outboard, and everybody would come to record there, but was too freakin cheap to upgrade the Peavey?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Kmotr
.

I think it was actually the analog gear that contributed to the sound, but I don't know for sure .....

It was the guys themselves.

Hey the RZA beats sounds like the RZA.

Premier beats sounds like Premier.

Mobb Deep beats sounds like Mobb Deep.

KRS One beats sounds like KRS One.

Everybody uses turntables(1200's),ASR's,SP1200's, MPC's or S950's.

But all of their tracks sound different.

Its not just the samples they lift either or live parts that are added, its the feel that each brings to their productions.

That's something you are just born with.

[Kmotr]

So what you guys are saying is that the recording device doesn't have that much to do with the final sound? It's mostly the samplers and the way the sounds were processed?

I always thought that the recording medium was equally important....

PS: I got back to you through a PM too.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Kmotr
So what you guys are saying is that the recording device doesn't have that much to do with the final sound? It's mostly the samplers and the way the sounds were processed?

I always thought that the recording medium was equally important....

PS: I got back to you through a PM too.

Its a little bit of everything actually.

Like i said earlier, i love the sound of rap coming of tape.

The drums and bass sound huge.

But sometimes huge is not what's called for believe it or not.

The sounds of a lot of mixtape productions is bright,small and brittle(probably because of all the DAW's in the studios).

Yeah, alot is in the processing and the sample choices.

Also who ever is putting the track together and mixing has a lot to do with it also.

[ttauri]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
syncing up an analog machine with a computer and a Drum machine

Double

Peece,
T. Tauri

[King Tubby]

First things first......Thrill, call me KT one more time and I'll Blast ya! "Just keeping it hip hop ya understand" got ta keep up appearances...

At the time all these great rap records came out, NYC had a few studios that were Ghetto in comparison to other World Class Facilities..The thing they had going was vibe and the same clientel and stylewise engineers. This contributed to that Unique sound that each studio was known for....D&D,Unique's,Firehouse,Quad and many more...had the same repeat offenders. Primo credits his sound to D&D, as cornball as I believed that studio to be...That is why I believe Yoram never changed that Peavey...it had that certain and for lack of better words "Funk" With todays battle for loudness that old school sound just doesnt fit with,I'm sorry to say radio format. Sure listening to those same old records on radio sounds great...but it aint the fidelity we are awstruck by...it's the nostalgia...Damn memba when this joint came out? damn man I was hustling during them days I was paid ...and all those other memories attached to those cuts. Same goes for any other genre of music...I might get flack from everyone around here for this statement but "f" it....When things are recorded and mixed right nowadaze, I like it better than any of the so called greats of the past. Beatles Sgt Pepper or Radioheads Hail?. hummmm.....Pet sounds or Ready to Die hummmm again....well it's just me..


Lata
Tkae "Sometimes KT" Mendez

[Kmotr]

I was hoping I could get specific advice on what to get for recording....

As I said earlier, I mentioned the Wu-Tang album not because I wanna copy their sound. It was more as a reference.

Thanks anayway.

[King Tubby]

Sorry for turning your question into something else...here ya go as I best can put it.....



This may be a bit of a shocker so grab a seat!
The best best best thing to get to achieve your goals of a (can I call it vintage style) is a very modern DAW...anything from Logic all the way to Protools. It is way easier to take a clean audio and flavor it up via comp,eq and efx than to take a dirty not so well recorded audio and spiff it up. And to top it off the best piece of gear you have are hanging to the right and left of your head. Use those 2 puppies and I am sure no matter what the gear you get (old or new) you will accomplish your goal...This all maybe vague to you but it's da best a never finished school always been inta music bastard like myself can do....Hope some of this will help...


Lata

[Hiwatt]

I've got a Peavey AMR 2400 for sale if your interested...

[Kmotr]

Sorry for turning your question into something else...

No worries, thanks for your suggestions.....


Hiwatt, I first need to get a recording device. I have a mixer that I'll stick to using for now. Thanks....

[Kmotr]

Originally posted by King Tubby
Rza use ta love recording ta Adats...at 1 point he had about 12 of them at various locations.

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
I can tell you back then we tracking through really hi end stuff.

I know we used Summits,Tubetech,Neve's stuff to warm up the synths.

I just wanna make sure I understand you guys correctly. You would run the ASR or SP1200 through the high end stuff and ....... record to a 2" tape? Where does the ADAT come into the picture?

Or would you run the ADAT's individual tracks through the high end stuff and mix to a tape?

What would you do if you got the beats already recorded on ADAT?

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
In order to get the samples really full on the SP1200 we processed the records heavily, a lot of EQ and compression and at times some gating.

You mean you would process the records BEFORE they were sampled into the SP1200?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Kmotr
I just wanna make sure I understand you guys correctly. You would run the ASR or SP1200 through the high end stuff and ....... record to a 2" tape? Where does the ADAT come into the picture?

Or would you run the ADAT's individual tracks through the high end stuff and mix to a tape?

What would you do if you got the beats already recorded on ADAT?


You mean you would process the records BEFORE they were sampled into the SP1200?

Bringing up the Adats is asking for trouble around here.

Its like a Harry Potter Movie mentioning the name you shouldn't mention.

Yes we ran the midi keyboards through all kinds of hi end gear(AND STILL DO) on the way to tape or Adat.

If the stuff was tracked to Adat first we would either dump to 2 inch if it was availble or processed the living daylights out of it to squeeze any dimension we could.

There were a lot of boxes developed for this process.

The only piece of gear that i have ever liked from TLA was the stupid 8 channel tube warming thing.

Inward connections also made an 8 channel warming device that worked wonders.

Yes processing before was and still is the norm if i were going to make samples on an SP1200 or MPC60.

[Kmotr]

Thanks a lot for the clarification .......

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Bringing up the Adats is asking for trouble around here.

Haha, why is that? As I said, I'm brand new to the game, so pardon my ignorance...

I'm not saying I'll use one just 'cause RZA did. I'm just interested in how one of my favorite albums was recorded.

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Yes we ran the midi keyboards through all kinds of hi end gear(AND STILL DO) on the way to tape or Adat.

Anything specific I could run the signal through in my future home set-up? Or is the whole piont to run it through "high end" gear? In case I ever go to a big studio, what should I look for?

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Yes processing before was and still is the norm if i were going to make samples on an SP1200 or MPC60.

By processing you mean EQ on the mixing board? Or did you use a lot of outboard gear? If so, could you name some? Would you mind sharing some "tricks"?

[King Tubby]

Ahhhh! those was di daze ...when we usa ta struggle to take a sample and make it thump...Nowadaze the music is cavin in on itself...where when u use a sample it's from a sample of a sample that has already been sampled with plenty of Eq and juicyness ta last for 10 more resamplings.....my job is so easy...in a year or two I will be able to ask a client what mic and preamp and samples and keyboards he or she used...and type in a preset and "presto" It's a wrap ! Mix Done....Slot machine mixing. Taco Bell fast food style...Hey but ima still charge what I charge....



My Man go make a track.. work on it till it sounds like your sound and there ya go...wait on no one to tell You how get what you want to hear...I might go left wit something that you might go right with... and we both beez right...

[Kmotr]

What's up King Tubby

I don't know man ..... imagine that you see a piece of furniture that you really like and there is this carpenter who built it. You never built anything in your life before, but wanna give it a shot anyway and try to build "something like that" yourself. You ask the carpenter what materials and tools he used, right? You might ask for advice on how to build the damn thing too, right? You would likely ask these questions BEFORE you go to Home Depot and spend money on stuff that might turn out to be useless, right? Now, if the carpenter tells you what kind of wood to buy, what tools to get and describes how he built the thing, it doesn't mean you'll end up with the same identical piece of furniture. But at least you're not gonna end up buying a jackhammer, a chainsaw, 1" thick steel plates and wondering how come you can't build a bookshelf..... I mean you put your own twist to it, you might add something here, you might do something different there, but you'll still need the same tools and you still start by cutting wood and not by painting, right?

Is it so unreasonable to ask questions to get an idea how shit is done?

[ttauri]

Originally posted by Kmotr
Is it so unreasonable to ask questions to get an idea how shit is done?

Nope. But you know, it's a process. You try. Fail. Try again. Fail better (to paraphrase Samuel Beckett).

First recordings I did, back before the DAW/home studio revolution, in studios competantly stocked with plenty of gear, still sounded like junk. It's always going to be something that comes with experience, trial & error. And more trial, more error...

What do you think is the biggest problem you currently have compared to the sound you want to get?

Peece,
T. Tauri

[King Tubby]

Is it so unreasonable to ask questions to get an idea how shit is done?

No Sir it's not...my point is if ya wait for the carpenter......yer house might be furnitureless...

If ya try SOMETHING ya might be Frank LLoyd Wright...

[entropy]

Just to chime in, it's a ****ing great album all round! You can smell the sweat on it, it's so grimy, the production was spot on and the tunes are banging! I personally always though it sounded of S-950/ Ensoniq and Cubase on the Atari, I guess I was almost there. Regardless, it's an excellent piece of work.

I'm kinda betting that that the 9098 arrived around the Wu-Tang Forever period. Again, it sounds to me that on that project, they were coming to terms with loads of new things, prolly gear, fame/infamey, I'm guessing.

My take on the "sound/production" for 36 chambers is that RZA maybe did'nt have the best gear out there, but he took care in choosing his sounds/samples and maximized the tools he had around him at the time.