The Juggernaut VS Mono Gama...MP3's!

[James Lugo]

Nathan's Juggernaut didn't make it to the 500 series shootout in time so I just did a mini version for you'all.

Female vocals into TLM49, both pres in 2 modes.

[James Lugo]

female vocals

[James Lugo]

Diezel>57

[James Lugo]

gtr

[Lunatic]

Thanks, James!!

[James Lugo]

No problem. Any thoughts?

[zvenx]

many thanks, downloading now.
rsp

[PheelTheMusic]

As always - thanks for the clips!

To be fair I haven't listened in the studio yet but on my good headphones the Mono Gama kicked some serious butt! I need to get that pre into my place to demo...

7/1/08 EDIT: For the record I wasn't stating that the Mono Gama kicked the Juggernaut's ass but just that I though the Mono Gama clips rocked in their own right!

[NathanEldred]

Just some of my own personal observations (to my ears, after listening on Grado RS-1 and Klein and Hummel 0300's through Lavry D/A conversion):

1) Neither one kicked the other ones ass, they both are creating nice sounds. They are quite a bit different, especially the iron input on the Juggernaut to either of the Gama's settings. The iron sounds very colored and darker. The nickel input Juggernaut and the Gama are more similar in comparison but still different.

2) The Juggernaut has more coloration, the Gama is cleaner in general. The Juggernaut has more soft mid emphasis on it's iron input. The nickel input on the Juggernaut sounds more open and cleaner. FWIW, I've found that the type of input transformer used on a preamp yields more of a difference in tone than what is used on the output (Juggernaut has switchable input and output, Gama has switchable output).

3) The Juggernaut sounds more different from it's own iron to nickel setting, than the Gama does from it's own steel to nickel setting.

4) The Juggernaut de-emphasized the girl vocals sibilance, while the Gama let her sibilance pass more noticeably.

Also, there are only two settings for each preamp represented, where the Gama has one additional setting (transformerless, which I assume would create less coloration), and it isn't clear what setting the Juggernaut is at. +THD on the Juggernaut creates more harmonic distortion and a bump in the lows, and there is a huge sweep on the impedance input which greatly changes the frequency response. At a MINIMUM there would have to be 12-16 different recordings of the Juggernaut to show what it can do because of all the transformer, +THD, and impedance permutations.

Here is a graph that our Japanese distributor did that measures distortion and frequency response. Note this is only one fixed impedance setting (out of 41) and only with stock iron output xfrmr (input xfrmrs are shown switched).

[Todd K]

Thanks for the clips James. Hopefully I will be purchasing the Juggernaut soon.

[NathanEldred]

thumbsup

[cortisol]

Female vocal rated:

1st place. Juger Nickle - very real and being there (which is usually my preference)

2nd place. Mono Steel - love the tone, makes me want to listen but needs a touch of de-esser (I could live with this very studio and vibrant)

3rd place. Mono Nickle - very good and real but not quite as good as Juger Nickle and needs de-essing

4th no medal for ye. Juger Iron everything sounds like it's fading in and out of the clarity zone like a singer moving about whilst tracking but without mic technique. Disappointing. Makes the singer sound smaller and more amateur in places.

As far as gtrs go some interesting textures from the mono gama but the jugger sounded more focused and punchy and this applies to both setting on both pres.

Awesome guitar tracking and performance by the way. Liked it alot.

Peace,
cortisol

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by cortisol

1st place. Juggernaut Nickel - very real and being there (which is usually my preference)

4th no medal for ye. Juggernaut Iron everything sounds like it's fading in and out of the clarity zone like a singer moving about whilst tracking but without mic technique. Disappointing. Makes the singer sound smaller and more amateur in places.

Thanks for the thoughts. Not sure why this would be on the iron input, it doesn't do that in real life. I wasn't there for the recording of the tracks, so I can't confirm consistency of performance or mic technique. I'll eventually (soon) do my own tracks with higher end mics and .wav files. Probably do a film of the singer (or at a minimum some pics) so people can see where and how the mic was positioned, with a more detailed report of the settings on the preamp. I have no idea if this was with +THD on or off, or the impedance settings. Keep in mind this was 2 settings out of 328. The iron is different from the nickel, and sounds a bit more mid emphasized and 'warmer' as compared to the nickel inputs 'reality', but it's not a step up or down in quality IMO, just different flavors.

[cortisol]

The more I read these 500 form factor threads the more tempted I am to join in and buy into it!

It's got a lot of goodies and both the Jug and Gama are harmonically rich and sonically involving pres. And with different qualitites from one another.

Thanks for these comparisons James.

NathanEldred - some kind of youtube demo and some .wavs would be a great way to present the Jug. Cool idea.

Peace,
cortisol

[wildpark]

james thanks for the files


for me the shadow hills gamma mono

fits better in the overall picture espacely for her voice,

also the mono gamma have no iron mod wich is exclusive for gamma4 units,

and sound way better as the iron posted here imho.

thx patrick

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

female vocals

[AMIEL]

Interesting..I have the Shadow Hills pre with the Nickel, Steel and the Iron option...
I guess must be the mic ...because me being familiar with the Shadow Hills Pres.....I think the SH characteristics sounds very different to me specially on the vocal clips...!

So having that in perspective I think the Juggernaut may sound great !and yes both pres are very cool.

But may need to check the Juggernaut!! maybe is what I am looking for!!

thanks James for your time and the clips!

[Saxon-of-a-son]

On guitar: the nickel of both preamps was most pleasing to my ear. Didn't care for the iron or steel. Nickel was warmer. Jug had deeper lows, gama had more mid. I have to give the gama nickel first place--I like the aggressiveness of the mids. Because of the mids, there seemed to be more detail in the growl. But it only beats the Jug by a nosehair. And only on this tune with no vocal. A vocal might sit in the Jug better. I'd love either preamp equally. If I had to get only one, I might have to make my decision based on the knobs! thumbsupthumbsup

[NathanEldred]

You can change the relative midrange character quite a bit with the impedance on the Jugg FWIW...it's definitely not a static sound.

[Saxon-of-a-son]

No doubt. The jug is a great preamp. Since I'd rather run everything through an eq anyway, I would be very comfortable with what the Jug is sending out. Not a 500-guy, though. Have to wait for the 19".

BTW, what eq would you use with the Jug, Nathan? How about the Avedis?

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by Saxon-of-a-son

No doubt. The jug is a great preamp. Since I'd rather run everything through an eq anyway, I would be very comfortable with what the Jug is sending out. Not a 500-guy, though. Have to wait for the 19".

BTW, what eq would you use with the Jug, Nathan? How about the Avedis?

Avedis definitely sounds excellent. Buzz Tonic also sounds easily just as good to my ears (maybe better on vocals, acoustics, and overheads, just a hint 'creamier'), and costs 20% less FWIW.

[Rednose]

James I really dig your voice on the samples I've heard.
What 500 pre to you prefer for your voice?
And if you don't mind me asking, what is your prefered signal chain for your vox?
I do a boat load of Male rock singers, so it would be nice to know.
Matt

[BBoylan]

I was hoping James would tell us what his exact settings were on the Juggernaut clips, there are a plethora of settings. Impedance makes a big difference, was +THD on or off, I guess it's been too long since these were posted, I doubt that they were written down. He was strictly using the iron output on these clips, since we hadn't provided the nickel output. The Juggernaut is not nasally, it doesn't add nasal frequencies.
The Juggernaut with +THD off is ruler flat. So the nasal frequencies are from the mic or the source. Perhaps the Juggernaut is just not covering up, i.e. compensating for, existing nasal qualities from the source. Whereas the MG is somehow dipped. With +THD on, lows are boosted and mids are slightly dipped (see Nathan's graph above). It's a shame this wasn't presented (we suspect these recordings are with +THD off).

The Juggernaut sounds less sibilant to me. The MG is very sibilant to my ears. Reductive EQ or placing the mic closer to the singer for more proximity would be an easier option than reducing sibilance. YMMV.

In the future I think when we get some of our own clips together we'll post them in the forum as a blind test.

[Glenn Bucci]

I have been interested in the Juggernaut and these samples were enjoyable to listen to. On this particular voice, I like the nickel sound better than the iron. It just sounds easier on the ears. However I love the iron on the guitar when the focus of a song is based on the guitars. It sounds great on the nickel as well though. It almost sounds like your adding compression to the track as it has a big full sound that we hear on the radio. The only difference is with the Juggernaut you don't squish the dynamics, it's still there. If radio stations want big and loud, they should just have every studio use the Juggernauts and leave the dynamics alone. By the way the Juggernaut is one of my favorite super enemies (in the comic books). He gave the X men a real hard time.

[James Lugo]

I don't remember the exact setting on the Juggernaut, sorry man.

As far as what I like, I don't own a Juggernaut so i can can't include it in this topic but of what I own and use the LaChappell and Montessi Blue are my fav by far. The LaChappell 583s is one of the best pres I've ever heard. For rock my main pre is a vintage 1073.

Personally I think it's a game of inches most all the current high end 500's sound fine and will work fine. To me mic selection makes a bigger difference when tracking vocals.

[rhodesp04]

i thought these were the best:

VOX: mono gama nickel

gtr: juggernaut iron