$2000 killer vocal mic OR SM57 and vocal coaching?

[Kestral]

I agree. I've heard bad vocalists on a U47 -> 1073 -> 1176 chain and you know what? It still sounds bad!

[faeflora]

Originally posted by chessparov
A relatively forgotten factor is getting basic coaching so that a singer's voice is reasonably "placed", THEN select a mic.
(am assuming here the vast majority)

Well if the poor boy / girl can't sing what's the point of even recording them???

[chessparov]

Like Britney?

Chris

[maskedman72]

and william hung.

[TonyBelmont]

She'll probably sound worse then ever through a great vocal chain...

[Gregg Sartiano]

Coaching a singer on basic technique on "vocal day" in the studio is like trying to teach somebody (unfamiliar with) the rules of, say, basketball on game day. The individual may be a great athlete, but if he/she can't USE his/her gifts when it counts...

That's not to say little tips & advice can't be worked in along with the "pep talk." Actually breaking down their technique on the spot can make them think too hard which will kill the vibe on the track -- then tone is irrelevant. It'll suck anyway.

Seriously, here's how my existence plays out on a weekly basis. I think many of us have the same (or similar) "drill." TELL ME WHERE IN THIS SCENARIO THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO BREAK DOWN & BUILD UP A SINGER!

**********************************************

Sunday: Nothing's booked. Do drum editing and vocal tuning on song you're getting paid way too little for by artist who insists on laying bass tracks you could SLAY in half the time. Get visited by potential client -- he's FLOORED by your sounds but can't afford you. Go into "spiel" about how 'good enough' isn't good enough -- especially in this industry (add Britney joke or two to lighten the mood). He still can't afford you. Wonder to self why he doesn't pick up extra part-time job for two months and make smokin' three song demo of his best s&*t instead of trying to record ten songs on what you can only afford to do one on. "But THEY'RE looking for an album artist. What if THEY find something THEY like out of one of my other songs? I don't want to run out of material to send THEM." Decide that rest of the world actually thinks that A&R people (people...hah!) are faceless robots. You know some. They only SEEM like faceless robots.

Monday: Spend morning with singer/actress who makes extra $$$ babysitting so you can cut her demo/feed her ego about her voice. Proceed to listen to her muse about how she's gonna "bring you along" as her engineer (!) when her ship comes in. Go to home studio of semi-famous artist who had/has crappy deal and is paying you out of pocket so you can sit there, hit play, put in earplugs, and wait for him to write the next verse. Stay up way too late burning CD's for him.

Tuesday: Get blown off for half a day by idiot guitarist who forgot to tell singer it was HIS day to cut vocals. Have moral dilemma about how to bill them for wasted time which you could've spent in bed (after late night Monday) and spent on Gearslutz waiting for cell phone to ring. Go to Guitar Center and play vintage Marshall you can't afford, until cell phone finally rings. Your buddy with the "stage mom" and kid singer client needs you to mix their wack-ass beat (fixing the whole damn thing along the way) so he can cash the check (good money) and give you your cut (beer money). Go to buddy's show to tell him how great his band is and how they'll be "sign-able" if you do their next demo. Lead singer buys you a drink and asks how cool it is to work with semi-famous artist (Monday). They wanna do their CD at your place, but they certainly aren't reaching for their checkbooks.

Wednesday: Go to longtime friend's house in the morning to play...ummm...donate bass line to his dance song. Nod your head when he tells you how great it was when the synth-string arrangement "came together" for him...never mind that the parts are stale and the voice leading sucks, let alone sounds and articulation...your music degree and years of theory training don't stand a chance against his turntables and his wall of vinyl. That's why he's got a car that runs and can afford health insurance. Oh, yeah -- you spent too much time reminiscing, so dash across town to (finally!) work the SSL at "name" studio for your well-connected friend-of-a-friend who's in town. He's got a few beats to rap over, so load up the 2-tracks in PT, watch him smoke a blunt (is that why they booked this place?), and hit "record" on the rig. Get stiffed for $ and wonder why they didn't give you the money they gave to the "name" studio so they could be in the same room as that "sexy" SSL.

Thursday: Co-write with producer buddy to split studio fee for his R & B/dance/pop project which redefines the word "generic." Come up with trite cliches just for fun. Producer loves it. Band rehearsal tonight? Oops -- cancelled -- the drummer bailed, and you're not gonna get signed in this market, anyway.

Friday: Bring CD of current rock projects to "big studio" boss to keep visibility high and ask about current events. He skips past the bands and only raises his eyebrows when you play the auto-tuned generic girl singer stuff. "Is she signed? How old is she? Is she attractive? I know somebody who's looking for..."). Drink free, good coffee (for once) and listen to him mope about the industry and slashed revenues. Pass by 2" open-reel machines gathering dust while MPC sounds bleed into hallway from adjacent control rooms. Talk to girlfriend (who's bitching at you for your schedule -- "why can't you put aside ONE NIGHT?!?") about going out, and then cancel at the last minute when band offers to slide you extra money to make instrumental mixes of their stuff from two months ago so their new singer can write to it. Where were those CD's you backed their session up onto again? Girfriend is pissed off and goes out with HER girlfriends instead, gets smashed, and calls you as you're a half hour away from getting their mixes done. Decide to pick her up so she doesn't kill herself driving...band is screaming at you because their new singer was set to "meet them out" at the local joint to trade CD's. Apologize profusely.

Saturday: Out of money, banks close at 1 PM -- start out making calls to people who owe you, then call people who were planning to do work ("I'll cut you a break if you let me drive over and get a check") -- it's not enough. Call people who were THINKING about working. Take girlfriend to dinner and movie you can't afford to make up for previous night. Think about how great it is to be working in the industry that brought to life some of the greatest moments in humanity: Are You Experienced?, Led Zep IV, Inner Visions, What's Going On, Van Halen I, The Unforgettable Fire, Back In Black, Master of Puppets, Dark Side of the Moon, Grace, Nevermind, Straight Outta Compton, Sgt. Peppers, and that dork you saw last week on SNL. Realize none of those dorks on SNL in the last five years are creating anything to the level of "Exile on Main Street" or even the first Boston album. Piss girlfriend off at dinner by only talking about music. Piss girlfriend off again by only talking about how popular music has "lost it" this decade.

Hometown friend calls you -- first time in months -- and asks how life is in the big city. "It must be great working with (name artist). And you do music all day and set your own schedule. Talk about a dream job!!!" Ask self why you didn't become a doctor -- the plastic surgeons in town are living like the rock 'n rollers you though were cool when you were a kid.

********************************************

Oops. Sorry. Got a little side tracked. Anyway, I'm not gonna be the one to coach somebody top-to-bottom on their vocal. I'll remind them of fundamentals. I'll psych them up and get 'em "in the moment." I'll create a good working "vibe" and keep the session moving. I'll "comp and tune" with them or without them. I'll make sure they have their best day and that I'm there to capture it. But I won't teach them singing.

[Gregg Sartiano]

I guess my response is that the singer is at a certain skill level regardless. If they're buddies with you, absolutely help them find coaching and give support to their quest. That's the long-term version. But as engineer/producers, we're hardly ever working on the long-term...maybe we have long-term clients, but we don't track their vocals every day.

So...about the mic:

No voice lessons. Get the hot mic & buy a book & CD to practice singing with. Besides, most of those dorks teach "Broadway" or classical and can't help you sing the way you want to, anyway. There are some good pop teachers in L.A., however.

Why the hot mic? Read my scenario above. The hot mic lets you

a) get more & better clients because your mixes sound GREAT and not just good (especially in the vocal dep't, which is all that "turn the vocal up" crowd cares about anyway. Don't lie to yourself -- those are the ones who pay your bills). Also, certain clients pay attention to the "arms race" -- the brand name on that mic gives you bragging rights.

b) have something to do when you're recording ANYONE sing. Recording a half-ass singer who cares more about her acting career? No problem...listen to that MONEY CHAIN, baby! Now what if I turn the hi shelf down a bit and back off on the compression...perfect vocal sound...practice makes perfect!

c) anyone who says "get the 57" has never tried to shop a record where the vocal sound is "covered" or "muffled." I REALIZE SOME LEGENDARY VOCALS HAVE BEEN RECORDED ON CHEAPER DYNAMIC HANDHELDS -- I AM REFERRING TO THE FACT THAT WE'RE IMPLYING HERE THAT THE ENTIRE CHAIN IS COMPROMISED.
Nevertheless, if you take THAT mix to the industry, 1) the artist will go NOWHERE in this music-biz climate (in which high production values are demanded of every demo), and 2) on the off chance they did go somewhere, your engineering/production would get left behind faster than you can say "we need a major league producer."

d) we're SLUTZ! DO WE REALLY NEED A REASON?

[chessparov]

Interesting points. (thanks Gregg!)

However...

Sorry if my post didn't seem clear.
This was directed at the singer and/or their producer vs. the engineering aspect.

In addition, didn't neccesarily mean we were tracking on a Behringer console vs. a SSL.

Also, as you indicated, there are many singers (like me) who can sing through a '57 and get high quality results.

The key focus was meant to be off myself.
I have a world class coach available though when wanted, so no excuses for me!

A gifted vocal coach, regardless of their background, can help with basic mechanics.
Ain't talkin' La Scala here.
Simple things like the vocalist actually EXPRESSING the song as if to a real person
can make a huge difference.

The singer's "cup" just needs not to be filled-
even on the day of recording IMHO.

Careful to say "coach" instead of instructor because of the potential technical issues of a
classically trained teacher working with a pop
singer (including rock/R&B/Country) BTW.
Not "lessons" for the 11th hour, simply some further guidance aka coaching.

When's the last time you saw a pro basketball,
baseball, or football team playing without their coach? And how many singers need direction in the same spirit?

Chris

[faeflora]

OMFG Gregg, that was wonderful! Thank you so much!

[Blast9]

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup Brilliant!

[crypticglobe]

Originally posted by Gregg Sartiano
Coaching a singer on basic technique on "vocal day" in the studio is like trying to teach somebody (unfamiliar with) the rules of, say, basketball on game day. The individual may be a great athlete, but if he/she can't USE his/her gifts when it counts...

That's not to say little tips & advice can't be worked in along with the "pep talk." Actually breaking down their technique on the spot can make them think too hard which will kill the vibe on the track -- then tone is irrelevant. It'll suck anyway.

Seriously, here's how my existence plays out on a weekly basis. I think many of us have the same (or similar) "drill." TELL ME WHERE IN THIS SCENARIO THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO BREAK DOWN & BUILD UP A SINGER!

**********************************************

Sunday: Nothing's booked. Do drum editing and vocal tuning on song you're getting paid way too little for by artist who insists on laying bass tracks you could SLAY in half the time. Get visited by potential client -- he's FLOORED by your sounds but can't afford you. Go into "spiel" about how 'good enough' isn't good enough -- especially in this industry (add Britney joke or two to lighten the mood). He still can't afford you. Wonder to self why he doesn't pick up extra part-time job for two months and make smokin' three song demo of his best s&*t instead of trying to record ten songs on what you can only afford to do one on. "But THEY'RE looking for an album artist. What if THEY find something THEY like out of one of my other songs? I don't want to run out of material to send THEM." Decide that rest of the world actually thinks that A&R people (people...hah!) are faceless robots. You know some. They only SEEM like faceless robots.

Monday: Spend morning with singer/actress who makes extra $$$ babysitting so you can cut her demo/feed her ego about her voice. Proceed to listen to her muse about how she's gonna "bring you along" as her engineer (!) when her ship comes in. Go to home studio of semi-famous artist who had/has crappy deal and is paying you out of pocket so you can sit there, hit play, put in earplugs, and wait for him to write the next verse. Stay up way too late burning CD's for him.

Tuesday: Get blown off for half a day by idiot guitarist who forgot to tell singer it was HIS day to cut vocals. Have moral dilemma about how to bill them for wasted time which you could've spent in bed (after late night Monday) and spent on Gearslutz waiting for cell phone to ring. Go to Guitar Center and play vintage Marshall you can't afford, until cell phone finally rings. Your buddy with the "stage mom" and kid singer client needs you to mix their wack-ass beat (fixing the whole damn thing along the way) so he can cash the check (good money) and give you your cut (beer money). Go to buddy's show to tell him how great his band is and how they'll be "sign-able" if you do their next demo. Lead singer buys you a drink and asks how cool it is to work with semi-famous artist (Monday). They wanna do their CD at your place, but they certainly aren't reaching for their checkbooks.

Wednesday: Go to longtime friend's house in the morning to play...ummm...donate bass line to his dance song. Nod your head when he tells you how great it was when the synth-string arrangement "came together" for him...never mind that the parts are stale and the voice leading sucks, let alone sounds and articulation...your music degree and years of theory training don't stand a chance against his turntables and his wall of vinyl. That's why he's got a car that runs and can afford health insurance. Oh, yeah -- you spent too much time reminiscing, so dash across town to (finally!) work the SSL at "name" studio for your well-connected friend-of-a-friend who's in town. He's got a few beats to rap over, so load up the 2-tracks in PT, watch him smoke a blunt (is that why they booked this place?), and hit "record" on the rig. Get stiffed for $ and wonder why they didn't give you the money they gave to the "name" studio so they could be in the same room as that "sexy" SSL.

Thursday: Co-write with producer buddy to split studio fee for his R & B/dance/pop project which redefines the word "generic." Come up with trite cliches just for fun. Producer loves it. Band rehearsal tonight? Oops -- cancelled -- the drummer bailed, and you're not gonna get signed in this market, anyway.

Friday: Bring CD of current rock projects to "big studio" boss to keep visibility high and ask about current events. He skips past the bands and only raises his eyebrows when you play the auto-tuned generic girl singer stuff. "Is she signed? How old is she? Is she attractive? I know somebody who's looking for..."). Drink free, good coffee (for once) and listen to him mope about the industry and slashed revenues. Pass by 2" open-reel machines gathering dust while MPC sounds bleed into hallway from adjacent control rooms. Talk to girlfriend (who's bitching at you for your schedule -- "why can't you put aside ONE NIGHT?!?") about going out, and then cancel at the last minute when band offers to slide you extra money to make instrumental mixes of their stuff from two months ago so their new singer can write to it. Where were those CD's you backed their session up onto again? Girfriend is pissed off and goes out with HER girlfriends instead, gets smashed, and calls you as you're a half hour away from getting their mixes done. Decide to pick her up so she doesn't kill herself driving...band is screaming at you because their new singer was set to "meet them out" at the local joint to trade CD's. Apologize profusely.

Saturday: Out of money, banks close at 1 PM -- start out making calls to people who owe you, then call people who were planning to do work ("I'll cut you a break if you let me drive over and get a check") -- it's not enough. Call people who were THINKING about working. Take girlfriend to dinner and movie you can't afford to make up for previous night. Think about how great it is to be working in the industry that brought to life some of the greatest moments in humanity: Are You Experienced?, Led Zep IV, Inner Visions, What's Going On, Van Halen I, The Unforgettable Fire, Back In Black, Master of Puppets, Dark Side of the Moon, Grace, Nevermind, Straight Outta Compton, Sgt. Peppers, and that dork you saw last week on SNL. Realize none of those dorks on SNL in the last five years are creating anything to the level of "Exile on Main Street" or even the first Boston album. Piss girlfriend off at dinner by only talking about music. Piss girlfriend off again by only talking about how popular music has "lost it" this decade.

Hometown friend calls you -- first time in months -- and asks how life is in the big city. "It must be great working with (name artist). And you do music all day and set your own schedule. Talk about a dream job!!!" Ask self why you didn't become a doctor -- the plastic surgeons in town are living like the rock 'n rollers you though were cool when you were a kid.

********************************************

Oops. Sorry. Got a little side tracked. Anyway, I'm not gonna be the one to coach somebody top-to-bottom on their vocal. I'll remind them of fundamentals. I'll psych them up and get 'em "in the moment." I'll create a good working "vibe" and keep the session moving. I'll "comp and tune" with them or without them. I'll make sure they have their best day and that I'm there to capture it. But I won't teach them singing.

Wow.... you sound bummed!

I dunno... my life isn't EXACTLY what I invisioned it to be when I was 16 either.... and I have my share of ups and downs.... but I wake up each day and DECIDE to have fun with it regardless. Thus... I have no complaints. Life is grand.

I just hope it is for you too... and you were just venting. Doesn't sound so bad to me....

[Gregg Sartiano]

cryptic, I'm actually not bummed at all -- let's face it, I don't have to keep a crappy day job & I get to make sounds all day, often with really talented people. I was gonna delete the 'rant' part, but you cut-'n-pasted it, so I guess it's here for posterity now.

I'm glad you're having fun every day. In between all of the good, bad, and indifferent things, I have fun all day, every day, too.

But, let's face it: there hasn't been a worse time for the music industry in the last 50 years -- creatively or financially -- particularly here in Los Angeles. There IS great music out there, but it VERY seldom hits the charts or truly gets in the public eye. I hate to say it, but where will the VAAAAAAAAAST majority of 1999-2004's charting records be in 30 years? With very few exceptions (Coldplay!), they don't have a chance at long-term relevance. Engineers are earning WAY less than they used to, session playing for a living is a joke -- because talented musicians/sound makers are competing against the MBox/POD people/MPC programmers (yes, I love MPC's too, actually!), and since CD sales are down by 20-25% over the last four years, A & R's are hardly signing, and if they do, they're not taking a chance on ANYTHING -- no development budgets anymore...last A & R meeting I had, the rep told me that the sister of (insert VERY famous young actress/singer here) was in the day before trying to get a deal. In the era of Auto-Tune, who's gonna get the deal?

The music part's great. The business sucks. Wake me when A & R's are signing and the general public starts listening with their ears (and not with their eyes) again.

The industry is in a drought, and I know a lot of talented people dying on the vine.

[ROBB007]

I agree with Greg's profound statements *I was there {Hollywood}81/82/83 there was a great vibe and lots happening /Motels /madame wongs the lingerie club ect***I was so appauled with the scene in L'A 8 years later that I moved back to Canada[Vancouver}there seems to be a re surgence here in a place over the port mann bridge just like Los Angeles in the 80's the music is coming out of the burbs not the city!!!!I believe there is a small dry spell kinda like takin out the old garbage{S

[anodecathode]

Originally posted by Gregg Sartiano
Proceed to listen to her muse about how she's gonna "bring you along" as her engineer (!) when her ship comes in.

I don't know how many times I've had to listen to this line. Its like... what do ya think I'm gonna cut you a break on the rate cuz your kissin my arse. NO! you pay just like the rest of the client scum!


Gregg, great read!

thanks
scott

[adam_w]

yes, the parable you're looking for is a bird in the hand is worth dinner from sainsburys !

[crypticglobe]

Originally posted by Gregg Sartiano
cryptic, I'm actually not bummed at all -- let's face it, I don't have to keep a crappy day job & I get to make sounds all day, often with really talented people. I was gonna delete the 'rant' part, but you cut-'n-pasted it, so I guess it's here for posterity now.

I'm glad you're having fun every day. In between all of the good, bad, and indifferent things, I have fun all day, every day, too.

But, let's face it: there hasn't been a worse time for the music industry in the last 50 years -- creatively or financially -- particularly here in Los Angeles. There IS great music out there, but it VERY seldom hits the charts or truly gets in the public eye. I hate to say it, but where will the VAAAAAAAAAST majority of 1999-2004's charting records be in 30 years? With very few exceptions (Coldplay!), they don't have a chance at long-term relevance. Engineers are earning WAY less than they used to, session playing for a living is a joke -- because talented musicians/sound makers are competing against the MBox/POD people/MPC programmers (yes, I love MPC's too, actually!), and since CD sales are down by 20-25% over the last four years, A & R's are hardly signing, and if they do, they're not taking a chance on ANYTHING -- no development budgets anymore...last A & R meeting I had, the rep told me that the sister of (insert VERY famous young actress/singer here) was in the day before trying to get a deal. In the era of Auto-Tune, who's gonna get the deal?

The music part's great. The business sucks. Wake me when A & R's are signing and the general public starts listening with their ears (and not with their eyes) again.

The industry is in a drought, and I know a lot of talented people dying on the vine.

Hmmmmm.... I hear what you are saying... but... I don't let the "business" keep me from making music I like, or working with people that I think are great. I don't need to be the "man behind Britany Spears" (or even rich) to feel successful or fulfilled. (And yes... you can make all the jokes you want about being "behind Britany")... but you know what I meant.

And I certainly don't blame you for ranting a little bit... but ..... I also encourage you my friend. If you don't like the business... change it. If you think you can't.... you under estimate yourself. A motivated man can do anything he wants... if he doesn't give up.

[BattleAngel]

Wow, some really brilliant and insightful posts in this fun thread!

Can I give you some feedback as an artist/vocalist/not-a-professional-engineer that I think you might find equally insightful?

I learned enough about the process of engineering a record (from philosophy, to psychological stresses, to the technical aspects of doing it) to be able to sympathize and work efficiently in a professional environment with people who do this for a living and who don't need extracreative stress to deal with when trying to capture performed art :-) What I did to prepare was the following:

1) Record demos using the most bottom-end means possible. Over the course of a few years (I've been singing original music for 4, and I'm 21), I've learned how to make my vocal performances really slay people, especially when I tell them I used a computer dictation mic.
2) Own and learn to operate nice gear, so I can tell what my voice really sounds like :-) Combining these two skills (not that I've mastered the high end stuff, but I'm an undisputed king of lo-fi computer recordings) has allowed me to really train my voice, mind, and work ethic for any kind of recording performance involving whatever I might myself, and gives me insight into how to produce tracks that I wouldn't be able to perform (really funky drum passages, or a string section, for example).

I think if artists these days would learn to really master demo-making, and be very critical of themselves, we'd all be in a better place musically, and I do think so much of the burden is on the artist/client because the professional engineer obviously needs to be able to finance their existance and largely isn't responsible for the "creative" (note the use of quotes) part of music making.

But I do think there is an anti-artist, or at least not a pro-good artist sentiment that we client/artist types feel. Certainly I can understand that as there are so many of us and many don't have a clue about making music. I feel bitter about it in the same way many of you do- I'm genuinely not a cocky person, but I have to say that I haven't met more than maybe five or six "singer/songwriters" in my city (MANHATTAN) that are on my level (and I'm not Ray Charles), let alone above it. That has instilled a bitterness in me whenever I go somewhere and see a horrible act, or am approached by some horrible female guitar player/singer for help on a song. It's a bitterness I am working hard to get past, because I've become a noticible asshole whenever I go to check out a local open mic in an attempt to find someone cool. Sometimes I feel like Mr. Glass from Unbreakable ;-)

I'm obviously a young guy, I don't have any hits under my belt yet (I'm working on it), and I honestly don't know much about the technical/professional past of recording, but it seems to me that there is a divide between engineers/producers and artists. Many artists view you guys as an extension of The Man, who obviously has "no soul," (they obviously haven't had to engineer a singer/guitarist who has a clear vision but has a very hard time technically reproducing the performance they envision) and many engineers seem to view artists as a necessary evil (which makes absolutely no sense when you think about it), as if all there was left in the world to eat was rat meat =P

So, for artists, I don't think an investment in vocal lessons OR a sick vocal mic- I hope to god that artists start investing in a sense of humility, a desire to push music forward and out of the confines of pop nonsense (it's not like this format is yielding 'Can't Help Falling in Love With You' anymore), a critical ear for their own songwriting, and a little insight into the recording process. No teachers needed, just need to get some good songs you love, study them, reproduce them with a radioshack mic, write your own music, and learn to make it sound cool as shit while spending under $100 to do it.

For engineers... it's tricky. It's hard to make brilliant work happen when you're not working with an artist who is brilliant or capable, let alone competant and somewhat talented.

But if you want to know what would get guys like us, and I think I count as a client who brings a lot to the table, to want to work with you- what to 'invest in' is making great, cutting edge records, with really cool sounds. People say there is no more room to explore, a lot of kids my age think rock music is dead, I know for a fact that there is more to explore and completely different methods to be employed when it comes to creating and capturing music. I think engineers need to work on being able to give a client what they want, extracting the best from their performance and recording it in a way that will please the performer, but beyond that- we need more engineers experimenting with new techniques for shaping a songscape, and advertising to forward-thinking clients.

Another thing that should be mentioned- I honestly feel that with my intimate knowledge of recording my own songs and voice, combined with my knowledge of gear, and my few friends who can really engineer the hell out of a track, I can invest in pro audio gear and record a stunning album in my own home. If I can do it, and a few others do the same, this is going to be a big burden for both massive commercial studios as well as little cottage industry type things. I would personally rather spend my money recording with a talented engineer/producer at a great, inspiring studio than building a super high-end, but not-quite-professional if you know what I mean, studio at home. But its hard to justify the expense on a middle ground facility even if it's run by someone with great ears and a respectable track record successfully producing independant records. Maybe stupid thinking on my part, but the money is still not flowing there, and I imagine that many artists who are developed enough to know how to craft not only a great song but a great performance will sooner spend 20k at a great studio or go for free or super cheap with a friend or even on their own, sticking to stock home recording stuff. I may be wrong, but it's something to think about.

[BattleAngel]

Rereading my post, I have to emphasize how much I blame my generation for how bad music sucks now. I'm not writing my generation off, because we don't have anyone to look up to among our own (come on, Radiohead and even The Shins all look like they're in their mid 30s and are writing about stuff kids these days may not be able to relate to), but we've done and settled for a lot of bad.

I often get static for saying that I have a vision for not only my own music, but for popular (ie. listened to by a lot of the population) music in general. But really, this is just the kind of attitude I want to see more of (and so should you) in kids my age. The record industry, if what we're getting now is what we are going to be getting more of, is going nowhere and FAST, and if no one does anything about it- if no one has any vision for how to change not only the music, but the distribution and the money making aspects of it, the only thing left to listen to is going to be shit you hear kids making for free and distributing on the internet, and that is eventually going to fizzle out. I'm even thinking about making an album, coupling it with really sick flash movies, and distributing it for free online. I may not make a ton of money (although there are ways to do it), but it will be a "popular" success.

I don't know what the other aspects of the industry are going to do about the drought, but I know that I'm not relying on the 'industry' to ever support me to the level where I can get my ideas done.

[max cooper]

Gregg, I didn't want your post to end. I think you are exactly the kind of writer we're looking for. There's just the small point of these minor changes we'd like to make...




BTW, I spent a couple of years taking weekly voice lessons with Gloria Bennett at her studio down by Wilcox & StaMonica and I wouldn't trade that experience for anything. The funny thing is that at the time I made a relatively good amount of progress, but in the intervening years my singing has improved by leaps and bounds because little by little I discover what she meant by things I thought I understood then. There will suddenly be an epiphany and I'll have a huge improvement overnight.

The really cool thing is that she was seventy or so at the time, and although she was the daughter of an opera singer (she didn't teach "style", just technique) she had some rocker clients. I used to take her to shows to see her students perform since she couldn't go by herself. I remember taking her to one of X's reunion shows at the Palace (OMG, am I ever a HUGE fan of X!!!!) and she was treated like royalty. Really a wonderful person.

Also took her to a RHCP show among others. I felt I had to be so protective of her, because she'd try to get closer to the stage and I'd be afraid a really crazy pit would break out. But I always loved it when I'd see people I'd know and I'd have Gloria with me. Certainly kept 'em guessing.

I think I can sing now, too.

[chessparov]

Thanks for all the posts guys, keep 'em coming...

Chris

[BattleAngel]

Oh well. Just call me Mr. Cellophane =(

;-)

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally posted by BattleAngel
Oh well. Just call me Mr. Cellophane =(

;-)

BattleAngel, I'm trying to join Nowhere Radio so I can listen to your stuff right now. So hold your horses! Nobody's ignoring you!

I don't think engineers believe artists are a necessary evil. I don't even think that most truly believe that artists are necessarily evil...

Seriously, most engineers are/were artists at some point, anyway. The lines have been blurred over the years -- division of labor (songwriter, producer, engineer, artist, A&R/business) isn't what it used to be, particularly in the rap/R & B crowd (how many rappers do you know who plan to run a label, be an artist, produce & mix their own beats/tunes, produce other artists, etc. etc.?). I actually think that's a bad thing -- I've had to repair my share of shoddy engineering work before mixing.

As for the adventurous soundscape concept, I have to be honest here -- most Thom Yorke wanna-be's are (in my experience) either:

a) Way too poor to pay anybody to creatively engineer any of their stuff (something about the Lou Reed vibe...). I mean, go to Highland Grounds (L.A.) on a Wednesday and watch all 40 or 50 of the Sarah McLachlan, Indigo Girls, Thom Yorke, and John Mayer wanna-bes and see how many have bus passes or student I.D.'s. Do you really wanna spend a month with any of these people so some A&R can hear your 'pet project' and say, "I don't really get what you're going for here." ???

b) Way too into their own 'trip' to let you get creative. I mean, I've actually had an artist pull the plug because he didn't trust where I was taking him creatively -- this was an artist who wanted me to get creative, and then didn't like the rough mixes. So his CD comes out -- complete with gallons of reverb, messy doubled vocals, and some 10-20k resonance that...well...whatever. Then he asked if I could play bass in his showcase. Ummm...no. I'd rather stick to nu-metal or diva pop, thank you.

Bring me an indie deal and I'll make Dark Side of the Moon with you. You be the artist, I'll be the producer/engineer. No problem.

[BattleAngel]

Haha good points Gregg and they are noticable problems. I'm fortunate enough to have access to the funds and physical space to make it happen (I hope ). I actually just recently watched the movie Barton Fink for the first time, and if any of you are familiar with it, it really adresses the question of the aspiring "genre bender," someone who thinks he has messiah-like powers to change the industry for the benefit of the 'common man' and it is indeed just as dime-a-dozen a dream as any Maroon 5 wannabe.

I don't think you need to join nowhereradio.com to listen to the stuff, I've enabled an all user download of all the clips on there :-)

Anyway, I hear you re: Yorke wanna-bes, but I also don't think Thom Yorke is the only game in town so I don't know why he should get the monopoly on innovative genius ;-)

[drundall]

As far as the original question, one of my favorite CD's right now sounds like the singer used a 57 or SM7. The performance, though, is great. I agree that one time coaching in the studio might be less effective, but assuming one's producing a band the vocal lessons can start during preproduction, and possibly would continue for a couple of weeks. Most young kids lack control over their voices and when they gain that they gain confidence which can lead to a vocal take with more conviction, and hopefully less processing...

[Jay Lee]

I'm sorry but I don't agree on Britney being a bad singer. Okay, maybe they have to record take by take, and use a lot of protools, autotune and such...but I think her vocals translate very well on record...Like Everytime, is a very well done vocal. She's not the strongest singer, but the package is more important when you're a pop act than just a voice. Even Christina Aguilera has to strip down to her panties that her records would sell, even though they are very good music.

Mariah just loves to strip down...Celine tries to be her own age...and next we probably see coked up Whitney flashing her silicone torpedos trying to sell albums.

I think a good vocal is about trying to get that magic something by any means necessary...of course it's easy when a singer like Toni Braxton just comes to the studio, sings a take or two and says bye. I think it's a nice challenge trying to turn shxt to gold. But that's just my opinion.

[bogeyeater]

hiya gearslutz

great, great thread - i've lurked here for ages but this has inspired me to register and weigh in

battle you sound very much like me albeit 15 yrs younger - keep that energy, keep that vision - if you walk it like you talk i'd be very curious to hear your stuff. i certainly wasn't as suss as you at 21. i've recorded stuff on pretty rudimentary gear and had it released in the world. it didn't do very well so me & record co. parted company. yes, of course the industry is in a farkin' parlous state and i'm thankful i've got another way of making money outside of music. it just reminds me that so much great stuff goes out and gets lost under the radar.

gregg, that sounds like hell on earth man but it's great writing and you should be doing a column somewhere.

maiden post woohoo. my gs claim to fame is that in 2000 i was hired as a labourer by one mr standen to help build a new studio facility in green lanes. my soul is in that studio, my sweat is in the very mortar - hi jules, howz u doin?

[Rednose]

Funny stuff mang... sounds a bit too much like my saga though, hA!

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Coaching a singer on basic technique on "vocal day" in the studio is like trying to teach somebody (unfamiliar with) the rules of, say, basketball on game day. The individual may be a great athlete, but if he/she can't USE his/her gifts when it counts...

That's not to say little tips & advice can't be worked in along with the "pep talk." Actually breaking down their technique on the spot can make them think too hard which will kill the vibe on the track -- then tone is irrelevant. It'll suck anyway.

Seriously, here's how my existence plays out on a weekly basis. I think many of us have the same (or similar) "drill." TELL ME WHERE IN THIS SCENARIO THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO BREAK DOWN & BUILD UP A SINGER!

**********************************************

Sunday: Nothing's booked. Do drum editing and vocal tuning on song you're getting paid way too little for by artist who insists on laying bass tracks you could SLAY in half the time. Get visited by potential client -- he's FLOORED by your sounds but can't afford you. Go into "spiel" about how 'good enough' isn't good enough -- especially in this industry (add Britney joke or two to lighten the mood). He still can't afford you. Wonder to self why he doesn't pick up extra part-time job for two months and make smokin' three song demo of his best s&*t instead of trying to record ten songs on what you can only afford to do one on. "But THEY'RE looking for an album artist. What if THEY find something THEY like out of one of my other songs? I don't want to run out of material to send THEM." Decide that rest of the world actually thinks that A&R people (people...hah!) are faceless robots. You know some. They only SEEM like faceless robots.

Monday: Spend morning with singer/actress who makes extra $$$ babysitting so you can cut her demo/feed her ego about her voice. Proceed to listen to her muse about how she's gonna "bring you along" as her engineer (!) when her ship comes in. Go to home studio of semi-famous artist who had/has crappy deal and is paying you out of pocket so you can sit there, hit play, put in earplugs, and wait for him to write the next verse. Stay up way too late burning CD's for him.

Tuesday: Get blown off for half a day by idiot guitarist who forgot to tell singer it was HIS day to cut vocals. Have moral dilemma about how to bill them for wasted time which you could've spent in bed (after late night Monday) and spent on Gearslutz waiting for cell phone to ring. Go to Guitar Center and play vintage Marshall you can't afford, until cell phone finally rings. Your buddy with the "stage mom" and kid singer client needs you to mix their wack-ass beat (fixing the whole damn thing along the way) so he can cash the check (good money) and give you your cut (beer money). Go to buddy's show to tell him how great his band is and how they'll be "sign-able" if you do their next demo. Lead singer buys you a drink and asks how cool it is to work with semi-famous artist (Monday). They wanna do their CD at your place, but they certainly aren't reaching for their checkbooks.

Wednesday: Go to longtime friend's house in the morning to play...ummm...donate bass line to his dance song. Nod your head when he tells you how great it was when the synth-string arrangement "came together" for him...never mind that the parts are stale and the voice leading sucks, let alone sounds and articulation...your music degree and years of theory training don't stand a chance against his turntables and his wall of vinyl. That's why he's got a car that runs and can afford health insurance. Oh, yeah -- you spent too much time reminiscing, so dash across town to (finally!) work the SSL at "name" studio for your well-connected friend-of-a-friend who's in town. He's got a few beats to rap over, so load up the 2-tracks in PT, watch him smoke a blunt (is that why they booked this place?), and hit "record" on the rig. Get stiffed for $ and wonder why they didn't give you the money they gave to the "name" studio so they could be in the same room as that "sexy" SSL.

Thursday: Co-write with producer buddy to split studio fee for his R & B/dance/pop project which redefines the word "generic." Come up with trite cliches just for fun. Producer loves it. Band rehearsal tonight? Oops -- cancelled -- the drummer bailed, and you're not gonna get signed in this market, anyway.

Friday: Bring CD of current rock projects to "big studio" boss to keep visibility high and ask about current events. He skips past the bands and only raises his eyebrows when you play the auto-tuned generic girl singer stuff. "Is she signed? How old is she? Is she attractive? I know somebody who's looking for..."). Drink free, good coffee (for once) and listen to him mope about the industry and slashed revenues. Pass by 2" open-reel machines gathering dust while MPC sounds bleed into hallway from adjacent control rooms. Talk to girlfriend (who's bitching at you for your schedule -- "why can't you put aside ONE NIGHT?!?") about going out, and then cancel at the last minute when band offers to slide you extra money to make instrumental mixes of their stuff from two months ago so their new singer can write to it. Where were those CD's you backed their session up onto again? Girfriend is pissed off and goes out with HER girlfriends instead, gets smashed, and calls you as you're a half hour away from getting their mixes done. Decide to pick her up so she doesn't kill herself driving...band is screaming at you because their new singer was set to "meet them out" at the local joint to trade CD's. Apologize profusely.

Saturday: Out of money, banks close at 1 PM -- start out making calls to people who owe you, then call people who were planning to do work ("I'll cut you a break if you let me drive over and get a check") -- it's not enough. Call people who were THINKING about working. Take girlfriend to dinner and movie you can't afford to make up for previous night. Think about how great it is to be working in the industry that brought to life some of the greatest moments in humanity: Are You Experienced?, Led Zep IV, Inner Visions, What's Going On, Van Halen I, The Unforgettable Fire, Back In Black, Master of Puppets, Dark Side of the Moon, Grace, Nevermind, Straight Outta Compton, Sgt. Peppers, and that dork you saw last week on SNL. Realize none of those dorks on SNL in the last five years are creating anything to the level of "Exile on Main Street" or even the first Boston album. Piss girlfriend off at dinner by only talking about music. Piss girlfriend off again by only talking about how popular music has "lost it" this decade.

Hometown friend calls you -- first time in months -- and asks how life is in the big city. "It must be great working with (name artist). And you do music all day and set your own schedule. Talk about a dream job!!!" Ask self why you didn't become a doctor -- the plastic surgeons in town are living like the rock 'n rollers you though were cool when you were a kid.

********************************************

Oops. Sorry. Got a little side tracked. Anyway, I'm not gonna be the one to coach somebody top-to-bottom on their vocal. I'll remind them of fundamentals. I'll psych them up and get 'em "in the moment." I'll create a good working "vibe" and keep the session moving. I'll "comp and tune" with them or without them. I'll make sure they have their best day and that I'm there to capture it. But I won't teach them singing.

[lawrence_o]

Originally Posted by Kestral

I agree. I've heard bad vocalists on a U47 -> 1073 -> 1176 chain and you know what? It still sounds bad!

You're so right.

Been recording a record with guys who can't sing at all (but are famous though) and it is really a pain having to face how another dude, one who is a master in singing, can produce better results with nuendo on a frakkin PC, than me with a G5Quad, PT HD7.1, an SSL, a Focusrite Mic Pre Red7, a TubeTEch CL1B and a chinese Mic that outperforms any Neumann...

I can really concur: if the singer sucks, the vocals will suck...

Cheers

[lawrence_o]

All this about coaching, I dunno how it goes around you guys, but where I'm from, people come, can't sing and you as a producer/engineer are expected to make heroes out of them and it all has to be finished yesterday...

Am I making any sense?

Cheers