drum programming sucks

[cdog]

See attatchment.

As both a player and programmer of drums for many years, I have to say programming drums Sucks.

Basically, it comes down to this. If you can play a beat or program it, 99% of the time if you play it the results will be more musical.

Thats my experience in a nutshell.

The better and better players you work with, the more this point is driven home.

Groove quantizing? tutt Try quantizing the clip and applying the "groove" to another quantized track, something tells me the results will not be as groovy.

There are things that can be programmed and cannot be played on a kit, such as some drum n' bass breaks, but for for almost any non-electronic type of arrangement, a real drummer, a good one mind you, is going to lend a vast musicality to the track which is vastly eluded by quantizing.

I realize this is a gross generalization but programming drums when there are so many talented drummers in the world strikes me a generally gross.

About the guy whos playing on this clip: an out of work studio drummer. His words: "protools killed my drumming gigs." Hes working mostly as a carpenter now.

[KBOY]

I agree whole heartedly.

Kelly

[MichaelT]

I totally hear you! As much as I can, I use a real drummer. When schedule or funds don't allow, and I have to program, I'll usually play the parts in realtime using a midi controller of some kind. I'll play to a click and just improvise with my hands and fingers for a few minutes. When I've played for a while, I'll pick out the measures that sound the coolest and loop them. I pay careful attention to timing but rarely quantize. I may move a midi note or two if one hit is off in an otherwise cool sequence. You can create a surpising amount of feel if you know what you're doing, but even at that, a solid drummer is always better.

I also apply the above method of programming very much when I'm doing film score type stuff for fun. It's usually hard to find some Taiko drummers around...let alone Taiko drums!

-Mike

[Douglas Whates]

While I agree with you in principal, a lot depends on who is sequencing and who is drumming. If you've got a great programmer vs. a poor live drummer, the programmed drums will come out on top. If you've got a poor programmer vs. a great live drummer, the drummer will win.

So - what happens when you've got a great programmer vs. a great drummer? Well, that would depend on how groovesome those particular individuals are and what sort of feel you are going for. Let's face it, Chad Wackerman, while undoubtedly a great drummer, is at times indestinguishable from a sequenced drum part - such is his mechanical feel.

As an example of, in my opinion, great drum programming check out the tracks at http://www.purevolume.com/ontotheblackhole, particularly "sex-octo". This drum part is entirely programmed and sounds pretty convincing. And it uses the free ns_kit7 (a mere 200MB sampled kit).

Still - given the choice of programming a drum part or hiring Peter Erskine for the day, I know what I'd chose...

Douglas.

[cajonezzz]

Amen brother.

btw. I'm available for sessions.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally posted by djui5



cdog...your boy is allright...but if "pro-tools killed his drum gig's" then there's something else going on......cuz trust me...pro-tools hasen't replaced a good drummer.

Yep. Protools will never replace a GOOD drummer. He is either not as good as some session drummers, or works in lower end gigs where people can't afford to pay him and go the easy way. Send him to Bolivia please.

[Kestral]

I think his medicre drumming killed his drum gigs. He wanks too much. As a songwriter/producer, I like drummers that play to serve the song, with a less is more attitude, your boy sounds like one of those went to jazz college and expects to get his ass kissed types.

[jho]

I've never programmed so much as play them live on the keyboard but how time consuming (unless you are that chinese guy in the advertistment video ! yikes). Then lots of fixing problems,e tc.

A few years ago I bought a zendrum , learned how to play it (harder than it looks to sound 'real') still learning, but I can do a really good midi drum track in one pass usually with just a groove quantize on certain areas afterwards.

You can play the fills and set up the pads so it has a real natural human 'playing it' sound to it...And now with 2Gigs for my DFHS it...rocks pretty hard..

www.zendrum.com

A picture of my actual zendrums are at the top of the catalog page, the ZX in tigerwood and the laptop.

Jeff

[mac black]

Its a well timed thread with the BFD looming on us

Its the first Instrument that allows you to create 100% live grooves (I've been messing with it for a little while Its as real as any live drummer if you know how to program it)
As far as live drummers for concerts, that should never change

mac

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Kestral:
As a songwriter/producer, I like drummers that play to serve the song, with a less is more attitude

And when you're a producer who wants to keep a strong sense of focus and coherence in the song's arrangement, programming the drums yourself is a great way to achieve this.

I like programming drums. It's a puzzle: you have to be persistent, know what you want, and know how to mix those samples together. Starting with good qualiity samples is key, along with having the ear for choosing which sounds will best fit the song and the mix style.

The cool thing about doing it in Pro Tools, is you are literally writing the drum parts like it was done in the old days on staff paper, but on the grid instead. Each sample represents a note, and you can fine-craft those notes into parts that fit the song's arrangement and enhance it in a pleasing and effective way.

There are tricks to getting the ever-elusive "feel" thing happening. Incorporating ghost hits is the first step, then nudging the ghost hits back and forth until your beat starts to swing with the overall groove of the song.

Then there's the mixing of those beats, where you have the opportunity to make the sound carry it past the effect of it being a synthesised element. Incorporating mixing techniques like using the parallel compression trick can add a lot of "grease" to your beat, and make it "sound" like a "real" drum mix. Bear in mind that, to the average listener, the realistically mixed sound of a programmed beat will fool them into not thinking it's programmed, because people tend to be much more seduced by the way something sounds than by the way it's played.

I love great drummers and would prefer to have them on staff all the time, along with the great rooms and high quality recording equipment and the talented engineering staff to record them. Unfortunately that's not always a realistic option, so Plan B means breaking out DFH and moving those puzzle pieces around on the grid. Knowing how to do that effectively means offering a valuable service to your potential client base. Not knowing how to do that well means it's gonna suck, no doubt.

Happy hunting.

[stealthbalance]

i love bfd. i dont need drummers anymore. or rooms or mics or attitude or overtime or drumkit rentals or or or

s

[Curve Dominant]

posted by stealthbalance:
i love bfd. i dont need drummers anymore. or rooms or mics or attitude or overtime or drumkit rentals or or or

Jeez...you said in one sentence what took me 6 paragraphs.

[toolskid]

I think there needs to be a distinction made between programmed drums that are intended to be synthetic sounding and those that are attempting to recreate real kit playing. Despite me being a session drummer for many years I feel there is definitely a place for the synthetic form of programming in many areas of music (I'd have to admit that I've been hired for my drum programming+editing for the last ten years) BUT I would love to hear any programmed drums that actually convince me I'm listening to a real sympathetic, experienced. cooking drummer!

Saying this I can definitely see the benefit of BFD or DKFH or Scarbee etc.. to the low budget project studio.

re:natural studio - I feel that a lot of the production in that genre of music, with triggering and masses of PT editing, tends to make live playing sound fairly programmed anyway. I was unconvinced especially by the cymbals. (which now will probably turn out to have been played live
)

Can anyone post their soloed real drum playing programming - curve? stealth? I'd love to be convinced... A variety of genres would be interesting.

re: attitude, kit hire etc.. I can only say you're working with the wrong people, there's many drummers I know with open minds, masses of experience, great gear and are a great guys to boot. IMHO dealing with the rooms and mics etc are the some of the best bits!!!

all the best anyhoo

[bellehard]

I agree totally. I'm doing rock / alternative music and I must say they have not YET managed to develop a product that will give you the same sense of creative sparkle as you would get being in front of a drumkit....

which is mainly due to the fact that most drum samplers seem to be a bit technical to work with, and programming or playing drums on a keyboard is not quite the same as the real thing....

however, as someone said earlier, this is true in general although of course it depends on the creative ability of the person in front of the computer... but it's definitely not my favourite part of sequencing...

[deft_bonz]

i'd like to say in before that i do mostly electronic music. but i do agree with you in a certain way.

i HATE quantized percussion tracks in any way. there is only one sound i quantize: bassdrum on 4 on the floor beats. but all the rest i play them (of course over midi) until the sound groovy. i record from 1 to 16 bars (depends on the rhythm pattern and sound) plus fills, breaks etc. and loop them. but i will NEVER quantize again because that sounds awful and dead.

i'd like to record an acoustical drum or record an electronical drum (because of the sound possibilities for electronic music) with a REAL human behind it. but until now i've hadn't the room and mics to do this. this will gladly change soon

regards deft:::

[crispy]

My mate wuz producing a track for last years Eurovision Song Contest.

He was in a sweat because the dealine for submissions was a couple of days away and he hadn't finished mixing it, let alone having it mastered & sent off by courier.
Of course, he had programmed the drums and had taken nearly five weeks to get it sounding as natural as possible (only it didn't because he's not a drummer).
His face fell when I told him I could have done it inside of three
hours on a proper kit, which obviously would have left him a shed load of time to finish it without the panic & stress..

Problem with programmed drums is, whatever sample you use, someone else is also using them, be it single hits or loops.

At least with recording a real drummer, it is going to sound unique to that song.
Everytime I set up a kit for recording, it's going to sound different from the last session.

There is also the creative spark that you get from someone doing something improvised or off-the-cuff that just lights things up, unplanned, unrehearsed, totally spontanious.

And that's what makes live drums special....

[deft_bonz]

Originally posted by crispy

At least with recording a real drummer, it is going to sound unique to that song.
Everytime I set up a kit for recording, it's going to sound different from the last session.

There is also the creative spark that you get from someone doing something improvised or off-the-cuff that just lights things up, unplanned, unrehearsed, totally spontanious.

And that's what makes live drums special....

amen.

programmed stuff can be so boring, or it will take you days or even weeks to get it half way right. i'm even at a point where i record percussions like live over midi for the whole track. from the beginning to the end and then overdub places where needed. this gives me a much more lively feeling and the funny thing is that even hitting only the midi keyboard i put in some spontaneous fills or variations.

[Douglas Whates]

Originally posted by toolskid
[B]re:natural studio - I feel that a lot of the production in that genre of music, with triggering and masses of PT editing, tends to make live playing sound fairly programmed anyway. I was unconvinced especially by the cymbals. (which now will probably turn out to have been played live
)

Can anyone post their soloed real drum playing programming - curve? stealth? I'd love to be convinced... A variety of genres would be interesting.

No - the cymbals weren't live - but you couldn't be sure, right? As I was saying, this is only a 200MB sampled kit, hence the often unexpressive nature of cymbals - cymbals really need at least 20 velocity layers to sound convincing.

Not sure what you mean by "soloed real drum playing programming" but you can check out the ns_kit7(free) demos here - http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/nskit_demos.html - Some are played in with v-drums, others are a mixture of live triggering and sequencing.

Douglas.

[toolskid]

Originally posted by naturalstudio
Not sure what you mean by "soloed real drum playing programming" but you can check out the ns_kit7(free) demos here - http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/nskit_demos.html - Some are played in with v-drums, others are a mixture of live triggering and sequencing.

Douglas.

I think these samples perfectly demonstrate some of my concerns....

[heinz]

I realize the sampled multi-velocity approach is fine for pop or other simpler music on a grid. But for Rock I think a good drummer off the clock is unbeatable. Machines, by nature, do not rock.

[lukas]

I`ve never heard really cool programmed drum sounded like live drums

I have bfd and didnt get any cool results out of it - maybe its me... still recording drums with session drummers

any bfd pros around? would love to hear some mp3s...

[dim light]

I suck! But I have tried BFD here;

http://www.evileyedcherry.com/musik/...n_version2.mp3

Don't be cruel...

[Jose Mrochek]

What's BFD ?

[JohnMcD]

Have any of you considered Drum Mapping? I use a simplistic version within my Cubase VST 32 5.0

Basically, if I need a ghost note, I just make a "off" mark within the map, regardless of the type of rhythm marked 1/4, 1/8 etc. Just listen to the whole rhythm, and decide where you want some shuffle or any other form of rhythm. I don't know about this quantizing stuff. I usually associate the word quantize with error correction within beats. Maybe that is why it seems so mechanical.

I have once dipped into Propellerheads Reason, but didn't like the drum programming the way it was set to work. So I jumped over to my old Cubase, and continue to Drum Map with the colored diamond gems for my own artistic projects. I find that it gives me what I want, minus the headache.

Later,

-John

[5down1up]

POWER TO THE PEOPLE stike

if u could programm what a cool drummer took 20+++++ years to practice that would suck
sad enough that most ears are already used to that click click click crap .

( and how did that sound ? ohhh on bar 12873 you were a lil late )

1 , 2 , 3 , 4

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Toolskid:
Can anyone post their soloed real drum playing programming - curve? stealth? I'd love to be convinced... A variety of genres would be interesting.

Toolskid,

There's a pretty wide variety of genres posted on my website, but bear in mind that convincing Gearslutz that it's "real drums" was not the purpose of those recordings.

Also bear in mind that all my clients have final approval over the final mixes. They all play with "real" drummers, and they all gave final approval of those mixes. Moreso, they actually liked my drum programming more than their drummers' playings.

And be aware that you will listen to those recordings with predjudice, knowing it's programmed and not "real."

A lot of posts on this thread suggest that programmed drums are boring compared to "real" drumming. The overwhelming majority of my clients feel the opposite: They are bored with what most drummers play, and find programmed drums a more desirable alternative.

It's not whatcha do, its the way thatcha do it.

[toolskid]

I have no interest in whether the percussion elements are real or not, I'm not some kind of ridiculous purist. I was under the impression that this thread was concerned with whether real playing on a real kit was generally superior to attempts to get programmed drums to replicate real kit playing. Now I don't know what you aim to get from your drum tracks, but in very basic terms I'm looking for something complementary to the other instrumentation, the song and the sound. I dont give a monkeys whether its played or programmed, triggered or edited to f**k, as long as it works. My experience is that when its meant to be real live drums, programming never quite matches the original and best!

Curve..I'm not going to get into a slagging match, but I would be concerned about the ability of your clients drummers....I couldn't find anything on your site (I checked several songs) that would convince me that programming drums would be better than a great drummer playing live. Are there any specific tracks that you could suggest I could check out that would be a good example of a great 'live sounding' programmed beat. I think thats what this thread is about anyhow. To reiterate, I have already voiced my approval for programmed drums in context (and I am sure that this approach suits many of the tracks that I heard on your site). Still looking for a really convincing display of real sounding programmed (or even played on V-Drums) sampled kit....

All the best to you anyhow.

[cdog]

Of the many drawbacks to programmed drums vs. a real drummer playing a kit is the sound, which I'm suprised no one has talked about.

Aside from the musical aspects of a real musician interacting with his lifelong instrument, the seemingly infinite dynamic and rhythmic nuances, is the pure sonics of skins, wood, and muscle all interacting as they have for thousands of years.

Every drummer plays the drums and cymbals differently.
Every hit sounds different.
Every kit sounds different.
Every room sounds different.
Every mic array sounds different.

For me, recording live drums is the essence of what recording music is all about. The interaction of all these unique elements captured as a discrete moment in time.

Recording drums is more challenging than programming them, but the results are unique and can be much more satisfying, especially when you're working with a great player.