Mic techniques for recording Heavy guitar tone

[johnjm22]

Okay I did a search and couldn't really find exactly what I was looking for. As most of you know from my last thread I will be recording some heavy guitar's in the upcoming weeks. So I'd like to get some opinions on specific mic techniques.

My current Mic locker:

3 SM57's
MD421
Beta 52
2 Rode NT-5's
3 Senn E604's

Amp:

Mesa Boogie Dual Recto through a Carvin Legacy 4 x 12 Cab.

I'm going for that modern heavy sound Taproot, Deftones (Around the Fur), Killswitch Engage ect.

Hears a link to a recording I did to let you know where I'm at with my heavy sound.

http://www.chrysalismusic.net/roughmix.html

Mic suggestions would be great as I'm willing to drop some dough to get a good mic. I've heard LD Condensers work well for heavy tone. But my main focus hear is mic technique.

Thanks in advance.

[djui5]

2 57's on the cab....one on one speaker.....one on another.......one speaker should have a little more upper registery....the other speaker should be more low end.....

If you have a nice big room...it wouldn't hurt to throw something at the back side of the room for some natural verb if you wanted it.....

The sound starts with the guitar player.....and goes from there.......


If it's not fat and heavy coming out of the cabinet in the room...then forget it....it's not gonna happen.

[stealthbalance]

i would use your 57 and 421 together , side by side and touchining each other.
tape them together if you like. so they look like this ll .
put them right up against the grill not straight on , but at an angle maybe between the center crease and the side . i usually have my second out there with headphones on slowly sweeping the mics and yell out when it sounds great.
first though , i'll have them roughly sweep each of the speaker cones to find which speaker in the cabinet sounds best. even 1/4 of an inch can make a huge difference from aweful to awesome. may i also suggest that you use a spliter after the gtr out so you can print a virgin di track - just in case you later decide that the tone you went for wasn't right for the song , you still have the performance you can always re-amp it or use amp farm or whatever.
hope this helps.

s

[max cooper]

Maybe you've read this thread in which Slipperman writes the book(s) on heavy guitar recording. If you haven't, I highly recommend it. He goes way, way into detail on some of the physics (or is it Psychics?) of speaker break-up, etc. Danged entertaining!

http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewto...order=&start=0




Soon to be a major motion picture.

[patsplat]

Originally posted by djui5
2 57's on the cab....one on one speaker.....one on another.......one speaker should have a little more upper registery....the other speaker should be more low end.....

yep...that's how I've been recording mine...two 57's pointed at the center of the two bottom speakers of a 4X12 cab,about 11" back.However what works for me might suck for you. A lot of people like em' right up to the grill,some say a little to the left or right of the dust cover,on axis,off axis-blah-blah-blah,you'll just have to play around with the mic positions till you find a spot you like the best.I read a post at another forum where a guy with a Mesa and a pair of nt5's said he was liking the sound he was getting with his nt5's more than his 57's.Couldn't hurt to give it a try since you have both. This might be a good place to check out if you haven't already... http://homerecording.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?f=27 ...good luck.

[patsplat]

Originally posted by max cooper
Maybe you've read this thread in which Slipperman writes the book(s) on heavy guitar recording. If you haven't, I highly recommend it. He goes way, way into detail on some of the physics (or is it Psychics?) of speaker break-up, etc. Danged entertaining!

http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewto...order=&start=0
.

Yeah...that is a good read...I ran across it the other night

[natpub]

Especially good in the old slippy thread is fletch's advice to get the cab up off the floor, like up on a padded chair--always helps tighten things up here.

[Gregg Sartiano]

2 SM57's -- one dead center, one just below it (almost touching) facing perpendicular to the angle of the cone...just off the grill cloth (again, almost touching).

Match levels, phase 'em out so if you invert phase on one, they (nearly) cancel. Move the mics to get them working together.

Then, when you pop them in phase, ka-POW!

...I agree it all starts with the player & amp tone. Don't forget strings, tuning, and tempo. If the drummer's pocket isn't happening, nothing will make the song sound "heavy."

"Distance makes depth" is for Jimmy Page -- not for James Hetfield. I always start with close mics and work from there.

[dreamaudio]

I've found that a 57 directly on grill at cone..with a AT 4050 below it about 6 inches back...off the cone works wonders. It's smooth smooth in the low end...and you can control the top end and bite with the 57

my 2 cents.

brian.

[joelgtrnut]

If your going for that kind of huge metal sound then do what Andy Sneap does:

Take 1 sm57 and track 4 times. Works like a charm everytime I've done it. Most bad a$$ sounding guitar sound I've ever heard.

[jeronimo]

Originally posted by joelgtrnut
If your going for that kind of huge metal sound then do what Andy Sneap does:

Take 1 sm57 and track 4 times. Works like a charm everytime I've done it. Most bad a$$ sounding guitar sound I've ever heard.

If you have a great player... do it 4 times... 2 on each side... you gotta take it easy on the gain and on the lows... ´cause it´ll get... too much after 4 tracks.

[djui5]

Originally posted by dreamaudio
I've found that a 57 directly on grill at cone..with a AT 4050 below it about 6 inches back...off the cone works wonders. It's smooth smooth in the low end...and you can control the top end and bite with the 57

my 2 cents.

brian.

I've done this....57 at a 45 degree angle right next to a 414 that's right on the grill....with a pair of 4050's about 6' back for "room" mic's....when it's all in phase it sounds fine......I did 4 passes of each guitar line....only used the room's on 1 of the tracks...as using them on all of the tracks is way redundant and caused phase cancelations of grandiur(however you spell it)...but it came out pretty sweet sounding......

[jon]

Surprised no one has mentioned Royer 121s.

121s and 57s are very different sounds. Put 'em both up ... for the heavy big neo rhythm gits the 121s usually wins nowadays. You might need to add some presence on the amp or with an EQ to brighten them up, but they take EQ well. 57s are brighter, fizzier, more fuzz. Both are staples imho.

Preamp-wise, the TG2 is my favorite nowadays followed by a 1073.

[LTA]

Originally posted by jeronimo
If you have a great player... do it 4 times... 2 on each side... you gotta take it easy on the gain and on the lows... ´cause it´ll get... too much after 4 tracks.

You can get past the low end buildup by using open back-style cabs. A bit sacriligious if you think the only way to big heavy guitar sounds come only from a sealed back 4x12, but it works when you start getting up to 3-4 passes for a single guitar voice (with the same panning, of course). Keep in mind the law of diminishing returns, btw. You won't get the 4x12 bump with it, but you will have a tight lowend without having to do squats.

Elevating the cabinet off the ground works wonders with the low end too. If you leave the cab on the floor, try to tilt it back some to reduce the floor reflections.

[cdog]

I like a 421 about 8-12" back from the cab, sounds pretty natural to me...

[Tim L]

Don't let those e604's collect dust... put those suckers up! You may very well like what you hear. A lot of times I prefer them to the 57...

[dreamaudio]

OT---I've found u'll never need more than 2 mics....or at least for me...as long as you have the right 2 mics.

[jeronimo]

I havent tried the Senn e604 but I use the Senn 441 all the time. Shure SM-7 get some use too!

[Ahellam]

Definitely starts with the player.. but considering he is good, a large cap condenser on a 1x12 or 2x12 with a high gain amp with the volume turned down pretty low is what I do.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally posted by max cooper
Maybe you've read this thread in which Slipperman writes the book(s) on heavy guitar recording. If you haven't, I highly recommend it. He goes way, way into detail on some of the physics (or is it Psychics?) of speaker break-up, etc. Danged entertaining!

http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewto...order=&start=0




Soon to be a major motion picture.

Dude...I printed out SM's responses on this thread and read it at least 5 times. But it seems incomplete -- what's missing? For instance, he explains the whole "low end bloom" distance thing (cut a piece of twine to represent the distance) and then never gets into how to use that. There are a few things like that.

There was a link for a Word-encoded version, but it was a dead link.

Any info?

[norman_nomad]

Originally posted by johnjm22
[B
I'm going for that modern heavy sound Taproot, Deftones (Around the Fur), Killswitch Engage ect.
[/b]

Buy a royer 121!

I record mostly modern hard rock; I've grown to love the royer 121 directly on the speaker cone along with an sm57 at a 45 degree angle. Make sure signals are phase aligned.

It works.

Another thing to try is borrow a marshall head, and 1960av cab and split the guitar signal between your mesa and the marshall. Marshall = mid-range meat. Mesa = harmonic grit.

Have fun!

[Gregg Sartiano]

What do y'all use to split the signal? I'm concerned with keeping the signal as "dry" as possible -- especially on passive pickups -- so a Boss pedal is something I tend to avoid (O.K., personal tendencies, but I know a lot of people have the same approach).

[Sarsgaard]

421 and sm57 all the way.

I recorded some raw rock guitar today, and used a e602 and a sm57! different...

[planet red]

Id also try and borrow another setup and split the signal.. Usually I'll spend some time using time adjuster till the sound is super smooth and sounds like one dense sound.... instead of the sound of two amps.

A 5150II (on low gain) with a tube screamer in front of it sounds really good mixed in with a mesa.

As for miking try setting up all 3 57's on one speaker and see which mic position sounds the best.. then leave that one and move the other two.. then choose the best one again and keep going.. eventually you'll have it in the perfect spot..

[Ross]

The old Eddie Kramer trick works most of the time. 57 at 45deg at the edge 421 on the driver and a 414 3' to 6' away mix to taste. Or you could put ae604 right on the grill

[Gregg Sartiano]

Sorry...gotta ask again (this is not a "bump" -- this thread is active).

How do you split the signal coming out of the guitar?

I've tried Boss pedals (the buffered gain structure takes away some of the "spank" from the sound), Line 6 Echo Farm (which actually SEEMS to be passive(?) -- if it's unpowered, it'll still pass signal through, unlike the Boss), and the Morley A+B (which seems to suck out high end & gain, but that's only one experience).

I know there are splitters & buffer boxes -- I want some specifics if possible (thanks!).

[toledo3]

Originally posted by Gregg Sartiano
Sorry...gotta ask again (this is not a "bump" -- this thread is active).

How do you split the signal coming out of the guitar?

I've tried Boss pedals (the buffered gain structure takes away some of the "spank" from the sound), Line 6 Echo Farm (which actually SEEMS to be passive(?) -- if it's unpowered, it'll still pass signal through, unlike the Boss), and the Morley A+B (which seems to suck out high end & gain, but that's only one experience).

I know there are splitters & buffer boxes -- I want some specifics if possible (thanks!).

You are definitely right about the Morley...ugh.

You should check out this box, it is the best on the market, bar none, in my opinion....



www.radialeng.com/di-jd7.htm

[brendondp]

Originally posted by stealthbalance
may i also suggest that you use a spliter after the gtr out so you can print a virgin di track - just in case you later decide that the tone you went for wasn't right for the song , you still have the performance you can always re-amp it or use amp farm or whatever.
hope this helps.

s

I concur. Re-amping can really be your friend in a situation like this. By spliting your signal, say with a Lehle, Morley, Palmer (etc) ABY box (to answer your other question - there are quite a number of companies who offer such a device which offer a buffered signal and don't suck your tone) as stealthbalance has suggested, you can do the first take getting your basic Recto tone, and then with re-amped takes add (or subtract) pedals, a bit of clean sparkle, greater bass, heft, saturation, or whatever you fancy. My opinion is that great (heavy) tone comes from a mix of different tones blended together, as trying to get everything from one amp in one take usually means that you end up pushing the amp too far.

Also, a Royer certainly wouldn't hurt and you gain another versatile mic to boot.

Good luck,

bdp

[brendondp]

Originally posted by Gregg Sartiano
Sorry...gotta ask again (this is not a "bump" -- this thread is active).

How do you split the signal coming out of the guitar?

I've tried Boss pedals (the buffered gain structure takes away some of the "spank" from the sound), Line 6 Echo Farm (which actually SEEMS to be passive(?) -- if it's unpowered, it'll still pass signal through, unlike the Boss), and the Morley A+B (which seems to suck out high end & gain, but that's only one experience).

I know there are splitters & buffer boxes -- I want some specifics if possible (thanks!).

Sorry, you wanted specifics...

http://www.axess-electronics.com/

http://www.lehle.com/frameset.php?co..._Link=products

http://www.palmerdirect.com/pga01.htm

These and the Radial toledo3 mentioned and the Little Labs (the Redeye or PCP) are probably the best.

Cheers,

bdp

[mpr3]

I like a Royer 121 up on the grill, centered on the cone, but at near 45 degrees angled downward (elevate the amp off the ground). With the angle I hear less stress on the ribbon at louder volumes and the tone sounds just as good as straight on it.

Then a SM57 (or 421 depending on tone) on a different speaker at the outer edge pointing 45 degrees towards the cone.

The Royer usually gets a Vipre and the SM57 gets the Phoenix DRS-2 followed by Little Labs IBPjr. Sometimes I will throw the E49 into the DRS-2 as a third mic (distant room). But I haven't been needing it lately as the direct sound of the Fuch's cabinet has been awesome.

I use the Little Labs PCP for all splitting and DI recording. It is a great piece of gear that I will probably never get rid of.