Professional Relations?

[KBOY]

Hello everyone,

I'm posting this thread in the hopes that some of you might help me to deal with a rather uncomfortable situation that I'm in.

I'm currently working with an artist/friend. In the past I have done other productions with him and they have went well enough that he wanted me to produce his self released album. The budget and my pay are pretty good. Mid budget, independent record company good. So with this we are trying to utilize any favors or friends that we have in order to up the quality as high as possible.

The problem is this. The artist has a friend that tried to produce a few songs for him a little while ago and it did not work out. The artist did not really like what he did for his music. But, the friend really knows what he is doing as an engineer. I tend to agree with the artist. The guy gets some great tones, and has a hook up at a major studio in town. The main tracking that I need to do in a real studio is the drums. At the same time I would like to track the bass player and the lead guitar player. So basically this friend of his would be tracking the heart of the music. Probably 4 to 5 full days tops. My plan is to track to 2" then dump to my DAW (nuendo rig/apogee converters).

This friend of his does nothing but bag on everything that I do. Tells the artist that my vision is dated and that he can totally kill the sound that I'm getting on the demos. (Which with the demos is totally true and which is why now that I have a budget, I will be utilizing what ever is best for the end product. I don't do half bad with the gear and rooms that I have. Man if I had the studio some have available to them for free...............) He has now started bashing the product that I use (nuendo) claiming that it is the year 2004 and how is he supposed to work with someone that is not up to date with his Pro Tools system. I feel that the system I use is of no consequence. Besides I'm tracking to 2", Whomever mixes will mix the way they want to mix. There is a lot more shit slinging but this is the jist of it. Next I will be in contact with this person to try and work things out. How do you guys suppose I should handle this person? Or should I just tell the artist that we need another 2,000 in the budget to cover what this guy would bring to the plate and just find another studio and engineer to do the work?

Thanks
Kelly

[max cooper]

So, I don't guess I really get it. On this project, is "Shitslinger" an engineer or producer or both? Will you be working independently from "Shitslinger" or will you be working together? I guess I understand that you'll have him do the basic tracks and you're going to do overdubs and mix, right? If "SS" doesn't produce the tracks, then who's going to? I'd say that whomever is going to produce the thing and the artist should put their heads together and make the call on the engineering. Or maybe I missed something.

[SpaceChild]

Personally, I would just ignore the guy, up the budget, and take my business somewhere else. Getting out of a destructive 'relationship' like that is much more valuable than the 2000 dollars you might need to spend in cash.

Do what you know you can do with the tools you have, and let that prove his comments wrong, if you feel the need. Success is the best revenge.

All the best,


Spacey

[Ruphus]

Tell the guys that you adore his HD rig that will probably be half the way already, then ask him for some advice and tips, that should make the rest. Finally make use of his tips and you got a much better deal than spending additional 2000 bucks for nothing.

Looks like he wants confirmation on his advanced level, so give it to him generously / pragmatically without necessarily shrinking yourself.

Be a taoist and make the best of the opportunities.

Ruphus

[max cooper]

...and BTW, what's the best thing for the project? I kinda think that should be the bottom line.

[dhughes]

Depends on what your definition of is is....just kidding

Ruphus got it right. But, wow is it hard to be like that. I'd probably tell him to go f*ck himself - and then I'd regret it later.

[mr.gefell]

ignore him.

[henryrobinett]

Hm. Ignoring him won't handle the problem, more than likely. It probably is a situation where he just feels under acknowledged, so I'd agree with Ruphus, Admire him or find something to admire about him and he'll more than likely melt away. If not I'd try to tackle him head on - not with hostility. Like, "Hey what's up?" Especially after you've lathered him up with admiration. But first and foremost let your client in on what you suspect is going on. The guy needs to be defused from his little game.

[DirkB]

I'd say if you're the producer, you're also in charges of "good vibes" which are mandatory for the best possible endresult.

If this guy is bashing you, have a talk with him. If he really is that good an engineer that you want him on the project, make it clear, but also make clear that YOU are the producer, cause that is what the artist is paying YOU for.
Make him understand that it will be a win-win situation if he does what he is good at and you do what you are good at.
If you feel he doesnt get the point, fire him and explain exactly why to the artist.

Good luck,
Dirk

[KBOY]

Thanks everyone. I hear you all. They are all good sugestions. I will try the professional one first. My only concern is that this is something regular that I will be dealing with, cause I thought that I nipped this one quite a few months back.

Kelly

[7rojo7]

Don't remind him of his allegged failure, it's likely that he'll attempt one on your time. Don't mix business with friendship, remind your client that there's a serious project involved here and that it has to be done with maximum creativity and efficiency.
Track and edit the basics with this guy, or with someone who gives a better price, and bother him about the price telling him you respect his work but the bottom line (total) rules.
Take the .BWFs and run. In any case, any engineer is going to leave his mark and try to steal the project from you if he can (dog eat dog) no surprise. If you have someone that you work with that you don't have this relationship with, so much the better.
Your friend values your artistic judgement no doubt, then use your judgement to do this project how you want.

[dim light]

Trust your heart.

[doorknocker]

Originally posted by dim light
Trust your heart.

Amen.
The situation you described just spells disaster, I guess we all know (but sometimes won't admit 'professionaly') that bad vibes will kill any record, no matter what great gift to engineerhood that guy might be. Creative tension, fights over details? Yes. Bad vibes, blasé attitude? No friggin' no.

Andi

[henryrobinett]

Absolutely. You have to know how to choose your people, when you have the luxury to do so. If it were me, given the evidence and the choice, I'd 86 the guy if at all possible. If the stories are true he's more trouble than he's worth.

[KBOY]

I know that the best thing as a right now desicion would be to just get away from it and get someone else to do the tracking. But the artist would really like to utilize this guy somehow. I think because he might feel bad about the other situation with him not working out. I also think that the artist feels that there are contacts worth salvaging through this guy.

Peace
Kelly

[Jules]

One possible senario is to come up with a killer deal at another studio

- sell this idea to the artist and it's - bye bye grumpy engineer...

Rub the sum b!tch out of your production shedual, life's too short, you don't need that kind of BS in it.

Meanwhile, develop thicker skin to protect yourself, you will need it - when you drop that little bomb on him!

[RCM - Ronan]

Great gear plus shitty vibe = lame record.
So So gear plus good vibes = cool record with heart.

In the words of Don was, "fun gets recorded to tape" If this engineer guy is bashing you he is certainly going to try and use the sessions as an opportunity to prove to the client that you do not have as much tallent as he does. Get rid of the engineer. You do not even need to talk to shitslinger. Sit your client down and tell him straight up that the situation is a bad thing. If as a previous poster said, you are in LA, my god we have tons of great engineers in LA with decent studios that are fun to work with.

[KBOY]

Well, heres where it is guys. I have talked with the engineer and have laid it all out it seems hes game. I figure the only way the vibes will be shot is if I let the bad side of my ego or he lets the bad side of his ego loose. It is my job to keep things good. There is no reason why they should go south. If they do it is because I am not doing my job correctly.

The guy is a great AE and the combination of his talents plus the studio we will be going into for the money it will cost us is well worth me learning a thing or two about a thing or two. Most of our head to head conflicts are really silly things. Yes I am on a non professional standard DAW (nuendo) and I use a PC (tsk, tsk). I am getting an M-Box though just to be compatable.

Anyway I thank you all for you're help. It was exactly what I needed to get the chip off my shoulder. When the session is done I will post my after thoughts.

Kelly

[DirkB]

Originally posted by KBOY
Yes I am on a non professional standard DAW (nuendo)

Don't kid yourself: Nuendo is as professional as any other good working DAW. No need to sell yourself short here.

Good luck,
Dirk

[Hiwatt]

Chuck Ainley did the last four Mark Knopfler albums on Nuendo...

[KBOY]

I guess I must explain what I meant. Nuendo is not the standard, so many consider it non pro. Me, I could give to shits! The artist I'm working with runs pro tools and I'm about to get an M-Box to be able to open up digi sessions and I still don't enjoy working on it. There are aspects that I like. I must also state that Macs and there operating systems are damn sexy. I don't know what child designed the windows xp look but it's very un-sexy if you ask me. But I am used to it.

So, I am not trying to sell myself short. Thank you for the support though.

Peace
Kelly

[stealthbalance]

KBOY-

i would get rid of shitslinger so fast that his eyes would fall out of his head.

remember , a zebra never loses its stripes.


s

[RichT]

Originally posted by stealthbalance
KBOY-

i would get rid of shitslinger so fast that his eyes would fall out of his head.

remember , a zebra never loses its stripes.


s

and something about leopards and their spots?...

[Curve Dominant]

posted by KBOY:
Well, heres where it is guys. I have talked with the engineer and have laid it all out it seems hes game. I figure the only way the vibes will be shot is if I let the bad side of my ego or he lets the bad side of his ego loose. It is my job to keep things good. There is no reason why they should go south. If they do it is because I am not doing my job correctly.

TEN POINTS!

Courage, kid. You got it in spades.

When you dive head-first into the ego-management game like you're doing, you are really getting into the nitty-gritty path of becoming a successful producer. My hat is off to ya.

The one big thing you're doing right, is taking complete ownership of the process. It's a ballsy approach, as I suspect you know, but there's no better learning process than putting your balls on the chopping block. Which could very possibly be the very definition of "producer."

A tip: Let Mister Shitslinger AE have his ego.

Let him think he's THE MAN. Get him to do what he's good at, so you can get that whole phase out of the way, and MOVE ON.

My money's on you pulling this whole thing off as a smashing success, and you and Mr. Shitslinger AE end up working together again in the future. You don't truly know someone unless you've fought with them, and you guys have fought, so it looks like the beginnning of a lucrative partnership.