The 10 thousand dollar question !!!

[ron florentine]

Sometimes I feel like I am in a cocoon in the studio and need some objective advice from some fellow gear sluts.I will be coming into a small amount of money from my father passing........about 10-12 k.............my question is would the money be better spent buy a new g5 computer setup and adding a Manley massive passive.My computer setup is old G3 350........and only limited outboard EQ ( I got a ton of Mic Pres and Comp) or would my money be better spent buy a used console such as an Trident or a neotek ....I currently am using a Soundcraft Ghost and track to a Alesis HD24 then transfer to DP for editing and then mix in the analouge domain.. I realize there is no right answer but would love to get some objective feedback.Thanks in advance for any advice!!!

Ron Florentine

[Hiwatt]

Buy a Radar?

[kittonian]

First of all, sorry to hear about your father. That is a dissapointing way to get new gear.

Secondly here's my suggestions.

1. Take the money and do something that will benefit you for a long time (investment, if you own a house pay it down, etc.). Buying digital gear with that money will good short term but eventually that gear will be worth next to nothing and unless you've made a whole lot more money than you've invested, everything your father left you will be gone. That's sort of sad to me.

2. If you must invest in gear, wait until after AES and take a look at getting a protools hd rig. Although a Radar is a great idea too (the S-Nyquist setup), ProTools is the most recognized name by artists and you have a better chance landing more business.

Just my two cents.

[manning1]

if you want something cheap with good sound for 600 bucks just
search under my name.

[mcguin]

second on the RADAR idea
dan

[ron florentine]

Kittonian- thank you for your condolences...definately a sucking way to buy gear. The amount of 10-12 k is what i alotted out of my inhretence to purchase gear , a larger part is going to paying off $23000 of credit card debt from buying gear.(yes i am doing something responable)............the PT HD is an interesting scenareo (I currently own PT LE).....I currently have a fairly reliable,very stable and a great sounding system between all my hi end mic pre and comp , outboard converters, Alesis HD24 and other gear yada yada............... I have not looked at the PT market in so long what are my choices..... Pro tools HD..........mix plus ????? And what am i looking at to get it up an running with adequate TDM plug in and complete system including new G5........My only other concern is down time, I am in the middle of 2 albums at the moment and I dont know how happy my clients would be with my down time and learning curve(though it may be worth it).............From reading many of GS post it seems like the trend is mixing into the analouge domaine and getting somewhat out of the box.Thats why I was considering jumping from my Soundcraft Ghost to a Trident or a neotek board to get all that nice hardware EQ to mix into.......Thanks again for all and any replies.

Ron Florentine

[jpaudio]

If you're content with tracking into the HD24 and editing in DP, i'd suggest the G5 as a good place to upgrade since your current computer wasn't even made in this decade. I worked on a G3 400 for a few years, using DP similar to your situation, and the jump to a G4 with over twice the CPU power and RAM was a huge difference for the better, even though i'm not using any plugs or much processing power. Protools HD could be a benefit if you wanted to skip the HD24 and use that as your multitrack and editor, affording you many more tracks (if necessary) and the additional processing and mixing capabilities, but that's personal preference and need. Buying a MixPlus rig at this stage of the game would be pointless IMHO. A RADAR system would certainly sound a good deal better than the HD24, and you'd have the option of editing within the RADAR as well, but you're still limited to only 24 tracks, and in my opinion, wouldn't be money well spent (doubt it would attract more clients either). It's a LOT of money for something which may not really be necessary for you. The console idea might be nice... Ghost is cool but an upgrade to something a little more 'pro' could benefit you sonically and *might* have an impact on potential clients. Massive Passive could be cool if you feel a definite need for it's sound in your work. I'd suggest trying one and seeing if it's worth the price to you personally. If you're doing a lot of overdubbing, a great ADC would be invaluable as a front-end to the HD24, something like Lavry Blue, Mytek, Apogee etc. Just some food for thought, grain of salt handy...

[max cooper]

Yes, Ron, my condolences as well. For a couple of years I've been assuming that I'd go the HD route when I could, but now I'm actually thinking about shopping the different native systems and using a Radar as well. I feel like an HD2 is kind of the minimum, and what's the resale on a system like that when the next HD batch comes out vs the same question re: the Radar.

For my purposes, I get pretty good sounding stuff mixing ITB, but I'd love to do my summing in the analog domain. For me, the cost of summing externally (and mainly the number of great sounding D/A channels I'd need to justify it) makes it not one of my top 3 priorities.

I'd personally consider moving to an HD or Radar before I'd consider setting up an LE rig for analog summing. For you it might make perfect sense, though. Also, I think there are a lot of HD systems running like champs on dual processor G4's and they're getting really cheap. I got a G5 because I'm running LE.

I have a rule that if I've got a large chunk of money, I consider the things I can do only when I have that much all at once, as it's a much rarer occasion. It does seem like a shame to drop a third of it on something like a computer that takes a value nosedive over five years. If you're system is working right now, how about sitting on the money for six months and thinking about it?

...sure would be nice to have the UPS guy show up with a Massive Passive and an Ibis, though!

[Hiwatt]

Is you studio a commercial facility? Or is it a hobby, something you do in your spare time and if you make money that's great, kinda thing? Forget HD it's gonna take too much money to make it sound good IMHO. It sounds like you dig analog so I would suggest going somewhere in that direction. A new analog console maybe? You should upgrade the computer as well, dosn't necesarily have to be a G5 but maybe a dual G4 or a dual proccesor 3ghz pc?

[Brad Lunde]

Ron: So sorry to hear about your Dad. A sad time indeed. Both my wife and I's parents are still around but they are in the upper 70's.....it worries me what we will both do when that time comes.

I can't think that spending ANY of he money on gear is a good idea. Its a once in a lifetime gift and it ought to spent on once in a lifetime things-real estate, a house, something you'll ALWAYS have. Digital gear-it'll be dead no matter what it is in under 10 years. If I really felt motivated to buy audio, the only audio I can think of that would qualify as an "investment" is very high end mics. Its about the only thing that has increased in value and is still usable after 30 years. Not to mention that its quite likely that future audio systems will be mics and speakers and the latest and greatest computer in between!

I think the Brauner VM1KHE is the best candidate to be a future treasure, the SoundField, the higher end Soundelux, the Deidrik (spelling?), the Korby? Did I forget a new mic? I can't think of any others. Maybe a perfect example of a highly desirable vintage mic might be good 30 years from now? Vintage mic reliability is a problem long term and could affect their usability (but not their collector value).

So if you must buy audio with the cash, buy mics.

Brad

[jpaudio]

On second thought, i'm with Brad on this one... those types of funds should be put into something that you can look at for the rest of your life and remember your father. It's easy to blow it all on gear, i'm sure it's the first thing any of us would think of, but you may very well regret it.

[ron florentine]

Boy!!!!! What kind of gearslutz are you guys....your trying to talk me out of buying gear and save my money!!!!!! Now how ridiculous is that!!! All kidding aside i do here what your saying about putting into something you will have the rest of your life.Like I said before I am taking 23K and paying off all my credit card debt which leaves me with 10-12k....we dont own a home yet but in my nieghbor(San Diego,CA) 10 k isnt even consider a down payment......the avarage homes in our average track house sterile community is about 750-800K....now thats insane!!!I am definately take what you guys are saying into account......So far I am tending to lean into upgrading my computer rig and getting the massive passive to track and to put on my mixbuss.thats should be somewhere in the 7-8 k range....now I have a little change to put into savings.................The upgrading console idea scares me a bit..... maitenace issues on older console......getting new Mogami snakes to work with my set up to the board is another big expense.I am seeming to get great sound with my current board thats why I thought strapping a Massive Passive to the mixbuss would bump me up soniccally a bit without buying another console.Thanks for everyone insights so far it is giving alot to consider.

Ron Florentine

PS someone in a previous post ask if I do this as a hobby or a proffessional.......My studio is built into 3 seperate rooms in the house ...one large control room....2 medium size tracking rooms and I Produce/engineer full time for a living.Its been over 10 years now!

[jpaudio]

agreed Robert... we all know what debt feels like, but $23k of it means you're doing something VERY wrong.

[djui5]

Originally posted by RobertPhilbeck
Ron,
I don't know exactly what your needs are that lead you to feel that you need this crap, but your post really depressed me.

You're over 20k in debt from buying gear! You have to pay it off with an inheritance! You do not own a home. Shouldn't you be paying off your investment with the work it's bringing you? Why are you in a situation where you have to mix personal money with business money? I'm sorry my friend, but what you need is a financial advisor.

You've got Brad Lunde, who makes a living selling gear, advising you not to purchase gear. You don't even have to read between the lines to figure this one out.

Is there a greatest posts of all time section?...cuz this qualifies.....


Also....can we start GSA?


Gear Sluts Anonymous? (I think I spelled that right).

[jpaudio]

If i spent my old man's hard-earned $$$ on my credit card bills, he'd come back to haunt me for the rest of my life... probably by continuing to knock on the door during sex til i'm 60

Seriously though, all kidding aside... debt like that is why you take a second job. Inheritance is something that the deceased would approve of and be honored to help pay for, not an easy way out. If your current source of income can't handle that, you need to reconsider things bigtime.

[C.Lambrechts]

I have to second these motions. Read Brad's and Robert posts again .... if you're not convinced .... read them again ... and again ...

[catfish11]

sorry about your dad
this is what i own for digital stuff
protools hd3, lots of plugs, a control 24
this "investment'' is approacing 25,000
not including analog gear
on the otherside i have samplitude and sonar and a emu
1820m running on a 3gz pc
this investment cost maybe 2500.00
and there are great small developers making new great vst plugs
the pc is more stable, the programs are better, w/ superior cost features by far
vst instruments run better on the pc
latency is around 2ms
if you are not opening a commercial facility forget
protools, it will destroy you finacially
in my opinion unless you are willing to sink even more money into
conversion outboard gear is a detriment to use once inside the "box", reconverting sucks the sound out bigtime.
i own protools because i have a viable business, own my studio space and home and have other income
i could probably make equal products on both rigs
i have invested close to 80,000 in my studio, probably more
and it makes money, protools can make money
but i am in a great market, maui
and i own probably the best digital studio here
my business needs to generate about 1000.00 to where i am breaking even
that is VERY good, no rent, no payroll, work when i want
and read gearslutz
what are your goals for this 35000.00
investment, do you get paying gigs on a regular basis
if you unfortunatly do not own property what is the rent on a space, how is this space acoustically, do you have a WORTHY space to record in - this is the most important thing, period.
no amount of good equipment can make up for a poor space
can you swing a hammer, read plans, saw wood?

how is your market, how do other studios do
35,000 ain't no hobby it is a business
i have one rule financially
if it is not a asset (making money) it is a liability (losing money)
you have 25000.00 at least invested right now- does it make you money?
think about it.

[Exmun]

Originally posted by jpaudio
Seriously though, all kidding aside... debt like that is why you take a second job. Inheritance is something that the deceased would approve of and be honored to help pay for, not an easy way out. If your current source of income can't handle that, you need to reconsider things bigtime.

I'd agree BUT, just counting dollars-and-cents, Ron would be in a better situation just paying off the $23k in credit cards and being done with it. There's no point in having $35k in the bank or invested making 2-10% interest annually when you've got credit cards costing you 15-27% interest each year. He'd be going into the hole each moment that he doesn't retire that debt. Consider this your Dad buying you financial freedom with the inheritance gift. IMO, financial freedom counts as a 'priceless, once in a lifetime' gift.

Watch the Suze Orman show to help you deal with the 'root cause' of why you got into that kind of debt anyway. I can't advise on what to buy or not to buy. My only point is that paying off the credit cards is just as respectable as buying a lifetime asset like a house for someone in your financial situation.

[atticus]

I'm with the majority here. Pay off the debt, save the money, and have something to pass on when you pass on. Gear buying can become an addiction, so I say get yourself into a good financial position and then make educated choices as to what gear to buy when the money is good. Thanks.

[ron florentine]

Wow I havent been slapped around like this in a while......thanks guys i really needed your input and my first plan is to pay off all my credit card debt become debt free and put the rest in savings and start saving for some real estate. I have justified my gear buying habits as a personal business expense..........hell....i make a living doing what i love to do....I just did my taxes and in the last twelve months i have spent close to 20 K on gear.....I do make a respectable living producing/engineering but after i pay my monthly nut anything extra goes to buying gear.............maybe your right... there should be a gearslutz anonymous.............Thanks for the intervention.....this place really does seem like family!!

Ron Florentine

[zimv20]

i second (or third, i've lost track) the financial planner suggestion.

there are many kinds of investment opportunities (i agree that owning property is high on that list) and you owe it to yourself to learn about them.

[djui5]

Originally posted by ron florentine
Wow I havent been slapped around like this in a while......thanks guys i really needed your input and my first plan is to pay off all my credit card debt become debt free and put the rest in savings and start saving for some real estate. I have justified my gear buying habits as a personal business expense..........hell....i make a living doing what i love to do....I just did my taxes and in the last twelve months i have spent close to 20 K on gear.....I do make a respectable living producing/engineering but after i pay my monthly nut anything extra goes to buying gear.............maybe your right... there should be a gearslutz anonymous.............Thanks for the intervention.....this place really does seem like family!!

Ron Florentine

[David R.]

Ron, sorry about your dad. Never a good time for that.

Best use of the $$ you wanted to spend, I would spend a few hundred on the upgraded converters for your HD24. It's not a RADAR - so what. They sound great. You are already using it and know how to transfer files.

Don't give any money to Digidesign.

Keep the Ghost.

Get a new Mac. It will improve your life and make you feel like you bought something. Buy Excel or some financial tracking program and keep track of where you are spending your money.

Talk with a real estate agent about a house. You don't have to buy one now, but learn the rules of the game. Who knows, you might even be able to play sooner than you think.

Good luck, and let us know what you do.

[jpaudio]

man, i really hate to sound like a prick.. but if it weren't for that credit card debt, $10k COULD be enough for a down-payment if you knew the right mortgage banker. A good friend of mine runs his own lender's bank here in NJ and the one thing he always tells me is that good credit can get you just about anywhere with next to nothing down. I'm a novice on the subject though, so I might be telling you something you already know.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally posted by jpaudio
man, i really hate to sound like a prick.. but if it weren't for that credit card debt, $10k COULD be enough for a down-payment if you knew the right mortgage banker. A good friend of mine runs his own lender's bank here in NJ and the one thing he always tells me is that good credit can get you just about anywhere with next to nothing down. I'm a novice on the subject though, so I might be telling you something you already know.

Awful lot of studios are in houses these days......It'd be nice to get away from rent for a studio...that would pay off LONG after the gear is bought, used, then sold or retired......

In another life I used a small inheritance from my Grandma to buy a duplex in Milwaukee for myself when I was 19. Rented the upstairs, lived down. The value of it never went up, but having low rent that never changed was a wonderful thing. Always was proud that her money made something significant happen.

Brad

[David R.]

Robert, personally I think the Ghost sounds fine. Not to open a can of worms, but I am not the biggest fan of ITB. What would I do with my racks of stuff if I were?

He could buy new stuff, Dangerous etc., but not at a fraction of the price of something he already owns.

Besides, with a mixer you can do all kinds of headphone mixes and inserts and analog tom-foolery. And, if you want, you can still mix ITB.

JP - with the cost of houses where Ron lives, I would not reccommend buying for no money down because the mortgage would be a huge nut to crack every month.

There are other ways, you just have to be creative.

[Bosco]

I am a Mortgage Broker and my wife is a Realtor with 10K you can buy property for sure but you have to have the credit to back it up.I put people in a $300,000 piece of property with 3k out of pocket all the time.Realestate is the best investment you can make in our country at the moment.

As far as debt go's if it excedes 10% or your yearly gross income you have to make some changes.If you make $100,000 a year and have 10k in credit card debt you can dig out it's up to you.Now if you have 23k in cc debt and make $50,000 a year you are in trouble.

I have been in the recording game for well over ten years and at times the gear can kill ya financially,but always try and pay the debt off your money can go into much worse holes in the world we live in.

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by David R.


JP - with the cost of houses where Ron lives, I would not reccommend buying for no money down because the mortgage would be a huge nut to crack every month.

Actually suburban Bergen County NJ is one of the most expenses places to live/buy property in the country. SD can't possibly be THAT much worse, if at all. But it can be done with some smart planning

[David R.]

Not meaning to turn the thread into a real estate one!

Some people think the only way to buy is no money or as little as possible down, keeping as much as they can to buy other stuff.

Ron had said the prices were in the neighborhood or $750-800k. Can you imagine the monthly payment on that?

Great way is to buy a multi-unit place and have the tenants help you out on the mortgage. Like our friend Brad. Or myself.

[zimv20]

Originally posted by jpaudio
SD can't possibly be THAT much worse, if at all.

san diego, like much of CA, has a crazy-high housing market. i'm not familiar w/ bergen county, so i won't compare, but i don't think i could buy in SD what i have in chicago right now. and the market here is pretty hot.

i'm just glad i got in when i did ('96).