Movie Theater Sound-- How to get it?

[EBGB]

I saw both Indiana Jones and Iron Man in theaters this weekend and the sound was awesome-- "hyped" is how I would describe it-- thick and cutting.
That applies to the music, sfx, and dialogue.

Cut to Monday's sound mix of a short film I scored, and I was not hearing the same size to the mix.

Yes the Hollywood films were
--in surround sound
--on large theater playback systems
--mixed on million dollar consoles
--mostly full orchestras
--best musicians and instruments

But how can I get my work to sound more like theirs? What else accounts for the differences-- especially things I can work on? Is this a question of "mastering" the sound more. Thanks!

[bcgood]

It's kind of hard to say without hearing a sample of your work. Could you post a 30 second to one minute clip? That would help a lot in giving you advice.

[T_R_S]

Originally Posted by EBGB

I saw both Indiana Jones and Iron Man in theaters this weekend and the sound was awesome-- "hyped" is how I would describe it-- thick and cutting.
That applies to the music, sfx, and dialogue.

Cut to Monday's sound mix of a short film I scored, and I was not hearing the same size to the mix.

Yes the Hollywood films were
--in surround sound
--on large theater playback systems
--mixed on million dollar consoles
--mostly full orchestras
--best musicians and instruments

But how can I get my work to sound more like theirs? What else accounts for the differences-- especially things I can work on? Is this a question of "mastering" the sound more. Thanks!

Sound for those films cost millions for a reason...
Nothing good is easy.

[EBGB]

I'd be glad to post mp3s if you tell me how

Or PM me your email and I'll send them to you

I probably should post/send 2 examples:
This film has kind of textural electric guitar stuff
and electronic dance music... I hate it when samples sound too Casio!
(not that mine do)

Thanks!

[EBGB]

Ok I figured out how to post clips

I believe these short clips show the 2 main styles in the film

I do however fear that the sound has already degraded in the conversion from 24 to 16 bit, 48k to 44.1, and then to mp3

But hopefully they give you a sense. What do you think?

bcgood?

[BLUElightCory]

I'm sorry, but the clips you posted don't sound ANYTHING like the scores for the aforementioned films. I'm not referring to the sound quality, I'm referring to the music itself.

It's a bit like trying to make a jazz trio sound like the Black Album by Metallica, you know? They're so different musically that it's practically impossible to compare them, let alone try to make one sound like the other.

[audiovisceral]

wtf? if you want loud and heavy you gotta COMPRESS, LIMIT waaaaaaaay more.

ever hear a rock song in a movie? they always seem to layer on more compression than the cd just like radio/commercials. eg. snatch was LOUD to my ears .. layer cake too

[sonicdefault]

Mix while wearing ear muffs


-SD

[dbbubba]

First, go buy a good book on film/TV sound.
Tomlinson Holman (THX) has a good book that is called Sound for Film and Television.

Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more Sound-Film-Television-accompanying-audio/dp/0240802918 - 196k -

There are just SO many differences in CD release music mixes and film/TV music mixing.
Do some research and it will surprise you how different it is.

Truthfully, most scores are recorded in stereo and mix fairly close to how music CDs are mixed.
The music is the closest to what music mixers already do.

The EQ alone is a different game.

[Full Clip Audio]

Also, trying to make your mixes in your control room sound like those scores in a theater is insane. There are too many variables. Until you hear your mixes in the theater you have no idea whatsoever how much of that "hype" is the theater system! Since playing your stuff on a theater system is pretty far fetched you should go get some DVDs and play them in your control room.

[dbbubba]

There are more differences than you'd ever imagine and until you enter the world of film mixing or read and digest a few good books you won't know of these differences.

Example:
Music mixing control rooms are rather small and dead spaces.
Theaters are large and fairly live.
The ambient reverb in a theater is a big consideration in film mixing.

[bcgood]

I was hoping to hear longer clips with dialog, ambient sound etc. At any rate don't listen to the person that said to compress and limit that is not what you want to do.

There really is too much to cover. There are some very good mixers out there that still wouldn't even consider mixing a film unless they interned, read many books on the subject and just plane listened critically during a movie and had lots of years of experience. Just for fun I think I'm going to take an spl meter to my local THX theater next time I go. Maybe I'll go see Iron Man again, I really liked that one.

[dbbubba]

In Hollywood style feature film sound mixing the music is mixed at a music studio and then delivered to the film mixing room as an element.

There are generally three individual mixers mixing DME which is Dialog, Music and Effects at one large console.

The DME stems are used to create the Print Masters.
There could be as many as ten print master versions.

The Video Print Master will usually have a different mix than the theater release because the intended audience will be in their living rooms or other rooms that are small in comparison to a theater.

The sync and timing of the picture and sound are even different for theater and video releases because of the average distance between the viewer in an theater versus a home setting is completely different.
In a theatrical release the sound is one frame ahead of the picture which puts the "in sync" point at 47' from the screen.
One frame is noticeable by many people and two frames is noticeable by almost everyone.
Video releases do not have the sound "pulled up" in most cases.

[SK1]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

First, go buy a good book on film/TV sound.
Tomlinson Holman (THX) has a good book that is called Sound for Film and Television.

Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more Sound-Film-Television-accompanying-audio/dp/0240802918 - 196k -

There are just SO many differences in CD release music mixes and film/TV music mixing.
Do some research and it will surprise you how different it is.

Truthfully, most scores are recorded in stereo and mix fairly close to how music CDs are mixed.
The music is the closest to what music mixers already do.

The EQ alone is a different game.

Nice, Danny. Thank you.

Can you think of any other points of reference on the subject other than the aforementioned book?

[j-madd]

Also, film mixes are at a much lower RMS than the stuff mixed for a CD. This allows for more dynamics and power in the end product. It's nice for a song to have headroom (I think sound for film is mixed to an average of -20 dbfs being equal to 83 db's on an SPL meter). It's NOT CRUSHED!!!

Justin

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by SK1

Nice, Danny. Thank you.

Can you think of any other points of reference on the subject other than the aforementioned book?

That is the only book I have on the subject.

I am certainly no expert on film sound, but I did have to teach a class on film mixing at a recording school.
Don't get me started...
The place actually had a decent film dubbing studio and had done some film work.
I was maybe a week ahead of my students as far as film mixing knowledge went.
I DID know how to patch the room and do the sessions because I had done ADR work.

I do find it interesting and it is MUCH more complicated than mixing a record or radio/TV spots like the bulk of my past work has been.

I did once do "quite a bit" of ADR.
There were a few "stars" who lived in the Dallas area and I somehow became the guy that did the ADR sessions for a few years.
Record with sync to video and an ISDN or phone patch going on.... it made you wear your thinking cap!

The whole field of film mixing is not rocket surgery, but it is quite different from music mixing for music CD type release.

For one thing... film mixes are not as reverberant as records.
Listen and you'll see that they are much drier sounding.
The theater is a BIG space with reverb of it's own, so they don't mix in as much reverb.
Obviously this doesn't apply for existing music sources (from recording artists) included in movies.

[EBGB]

Originally Posted by bcgood

I was hoping to hear longer clips with dialog, ambient sound etc. At any rate don't listen to the person that said to compress and limit that is not what you want to do.

Hi bc

I don't have all those final elements
I'm not the one doing the sound mix, just did the music mix

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone

I'm still amazed at how even a single instrument can sound massive in the theaters