Is getting a studio job nearly impossible these days?

[Jules]

I can see MANY folks caught between a home set up and wanting a full time professional 'paid' studio job...

with the industry "hurting" so much

Are there ways forward?

New ways of thinking for a new era?

What's to be the future?

[Bowisc]

I don't know anything.

My advise is "don't put all your eggs in one basket".
Diversify yourself.

[RhOdEz]

Now thats tough question ,and to complicate things even more sometimes full time professional 'paid' studio job can suck much more then being freelance guy or have no job or whutever .Being surrounded by egoistic paranoid maniacs "I know it all" guys/girls whose shit you have to swallow "to keep vibe goin' " is not my idea of fun damn it .Pressure and drama with ppl who 're sucessfull artists and are making/investing more money can be enormous ,and almost always they're the ones causing problems who's outcome endsup at your hands .Not to mention ridiculous schedules ,all possible computer session /setup nightmares they can give you ,and expecting world class results NOW while you're busy saving their mistakes ,now thats smth to think about .
But then money is important ,right ? Yes it is ,but sometimes i think i'd rather work on oil platform or smth ...
And there's a bad side of things also ....

Anyway i admire ppl who suceeded to merge bussines with pleasure ,in most cases its more bussines= less pleasure
or maybe i just need to sleep it over eh

[djui5]

There's still studios out there looking for good people.....that will never change..

I do think with the closing of a lot of studios the chances for all these studio college grads has slimmed to almost nothing.....

I could be wrong though...


I do think it's harder to get a job without having an "in" than it used to be.......studios can't afford to take as many risks as they could before...


I'm just glad I'm a freelancer.........it's great....

Wish I had more work but that will come with time....

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by djui5

I do think it's harder to get a job without having an "in" than it used to be.......studios can't afford to take as many risks as they could before...

Randy,

You must be young.

When i started out in the mid 80's it was way worse.

It was very exclusive and very competitive.

But it made everybody that much better.

If you got in, man did you earn it.

Staying there...that's a whole other story.

Honestly i hope with the downsizing the men get seperated from the boys in this field(not meant to be a sexist comment by the way).

I think its too watered down,vanilla, too robotic in some ways.

At times stale and boring.

Everybody thinks they know everything.

The youngins say they want to learn, but to be honest they just want to be doing their own thing faster.

Hey i guess to each his own.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Jules
I

Are there ways forward?

New ways of thinking for a new era?

What's to be the future?

Yeah there is...

Why does everybody have to be music recording engineers?

Here in NYC there is such a big boom in independent film making, that guys that can work with films on a budget are greatly needed.

And some of these budgets while small compared to a major, pay pretty well.

Also there are tons of commercials and jingle work.

And also music design for video games.

Not to mention the fancy rings on todays cell phones.

Basically in order to survive, you have to think outside the box.

The box is pretty small as it is and by taking up space in a place you don't really belong is going to hurt you and everybody in the long run.

[covert]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Yeah there is...

Why does everybody have to be muisc recording engineers?

Well, I don't have to be. I also do live sound, sound design for theatre, and any number of other jobs. I do prefer to be around music, and I like recording.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by covert
Well, I don't have to be. I also do live sound, sound design for theatre, and any number of other jobs. I do prefer to be around music, and I like recording.

Is your goal to work at a major "sound motel" one day?

To do exclusively music recording?

My point was just that the recording field is just not limited to music alone and there are other industries that need engineers.

One of the fastest growing one's are the guys that do the Forensic stuff for the law enforcement agencies.

Also a lot of books are now being commited to DVD's.

Somebody needs to do these jobs.

Why limit it just to one field?

[TonyBelmont]

There's work out there if you don't mind working for peanuts for a couple of years...

[Troy Hightower]

Originally posted by TonyBelmont
There's work out there if you don't mind working for peanuts for a couple of years...

Peanuts is right! The music industry has had to rebuild itself. The days of big budget projects is a thing of the past. Pro Tools and other digital studio software has made it possible to record in the comforts of your house. The internet is the way of the future for the music business. For all you guys wanting to be recording engineers and mixers. Do yourself a favor and learn how to save your projects properly!

Peace,

Troy Hightower
www.hightowerproductions.com
Home of "Mix By Mail"

[kevinc]

I think it`s a good thing for guys like me that want to run a REAL studio but also want to be the boss. I`m too old to take orders from people and bring them ****ing coffee. I took enough orders when I was working for other people in my early 20`s. I`m the boss now and I`m sure as hell not going to demote myself to servant boy once I`m doing audio for a living.


I hate to say it but it might be a good thing for the industry if more and more studios like mine start adding more to the music that`s being listened to out there. It`s kind of a middle ground between the big studios with the super sound and the home studios with the crappy sound.

Bands/people that have TALENT but can`t afford to go to an outrageously expensive place to whip out a demo or something can go to my place and theoretically get the same sound quality.

If it`s just me and possibly even a helper I can keep my fees low enough to give everybody that comes in the "all star treatment" like the bigger studio would only give to it`s highest paying clients.

I can take the time to make them comfortable and get solid performances out of them which wouldn`t be the case if they were being charged $100 an hour or more.

You can probably get a decent couple rooms together with a decent PT system and some nice mics and pres for under $50,000 these days. Why on earth would you forego that and go work for somebody for 5 years for shitty money ? If your running your own show for a living you`ll get up to the experiance level you need to a lot faster because that`s your meal ticket.

I`m just sorry I waited so long to tell the truth. Theres a lot of studios around here that are doing well with the kind of equipment I upgraded from 7 years ago.

[djui5]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Randy,

You must be young.

It's so obvious isn't it?.....

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by RhOdEz
Now thats tough question ,and to complicate things even more sometimes full time professional 'paid' studio job can suck much more then being freelance guy or have no job or whutever

so very true... especially since most studios don't have much of a hierarchy. Not much staff engineering happening at 'sound hotels', so you're either an intern for no money or an assistant for little money. How long can someone survive on an assistant salary? You can only make so much and take so much shit before you start to realize you want to accel by doing your own projects, and if your studio is too expensive for your personal level of clientel to afford, how is the acceleration ever gonna happen? I left a staff position to do my own thing, and i'm not making much more on my own but I am handling projects from start to finish and gaining more from my daily experiences than I did being demoralized and unappreciated for a pitance of a salary. I understand that it's part of the business, but it's still a very shitty practice when someone is busting their ass for you 24/7 for years. IMHO, studios did themselves in, in many ways. However, I needed those years of experience to give me the background to run a business, and I feel thats what sets me apart from most of the other schmucks out there. I also think recording schools have all but ruined things, and if I ever ran a professional facility, i'd want AEs with EE backgrounds preferably and at least an associates degree in a practical field that will make them an asset to my studio/company, considering an AE degree holds about as much value as a cocktail napkin and you gotta start at the bottom anyhow. It's not right that kids go to these ripoff schools, come out thinking their ready to track the next metallica CD, get a 001 for christmas or whatever and think they're an AE, but at the same time, its not right the way studio owners/managers handle their staff and conduct hiring practices for the most part.

[Ahellam]

This thread makes me sad.

[strauss]

Originally posted by kevinc

You can probably get a decent couple rooms together with a decent PT system and some nice mics and pres for under $50,000 these days. Why on earth would you forego that and go work for somebody for 5 years for shitty money ? If your running your own show for a living you`ll get up to the experiance level you need to a lot faster because that`s your meal ticket.

I wouldn't underestimate the experience and knowledge someone can gain from being an intern/assistant.

I've interned/assisted more than a year at a nice facility and in that time I have learned lots of stuff from watching (and listening with) seasoned engineers and producer's which probably whould have taken way longer to learn by myself, IF I would have ever learned the stuff that way.
And yes I have done a 4 year audio program where I definitely didn't learn the real life stuff I'm talking about (I have learned some other nice stuff there, though!)


As an intern/assistant I didn't get paid at all, untill I was able to run sessions's on my own. Though I'm very grateful for the time I was able to spend there, as they couldn't offer me a steady job there because of the way the 'industry' is going now.

So I guess I'm one of the guys trying to do his own thing now...

I just don't hope bigger studio's will go the way of the dinosaur, because record labels just want to save money, as there is a lot of knowledge going on in there...

[jpaudio]

Someone mentioned diversifying, not putting all your eggs in one basket, and that's so often overlooked yet utterly brilliant. You've got all these kids going to recording school and wanting jobs as if it's the be-all end-all, and due to the way this industry has worked for the past 20 years or so, that recording school degree doesn't mean shit to a legit studio manager. It MIGHT get your foot in the door at the very most. Somehow, someway, it needs to be made abundantly clear that if yer gonna go to college (and you should), it's WAY better to major in something else, maybe something related and applicable like business, electronics, or computer engineering, throw in a few recording classes in spare time/electives, and pursue the recording studio thing after graduation. That way, if it's not for you, or you realize how difficult it truly is to make a comfortable living, you'll already have an eduacation to fall back on. Beats the hell outta going back to school after years, especially since most legit schools won't accept your recording school credits for anything. If I knew then what I know now, i'd do it all differently.

[kevinc]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by strauss
I wouldn't underestimate the experience and knowledge someone can gain from being an intern/assistant.

I've interned/assisted more than a year at a nice facility and in that time I have learned lots of stuff from watching (and listening with) seasoned engineers and producer's which probably whould have taken way longer to learn by myself, IF I would have ever learned the stuff that way.

[/QUOTE


I definatley don`t underestimate what your saying dude. I imagine I could benefit quite a bit just sitting in and watching at a couple sessions at a "real" studio much less spending a couple years there.

But I`m also a firm believer of figuring it out for yourself and recording and mixing for the most part is something that is very unique person to person.
It`s one thing knowing some techniques and tricks people use but it`s another thing entirely to be able to really listen and figure out what a sound needs to fit in a mix right.

Just like every ear is different in the way it perceives things every sound is different and everyone who plays the sound plays it differently.


The sooner you get out on your own the sooner you develop that knack without someone watching over your shoulder telling you it`s wrong because he personally hears it different. You learn the most from ****ing up your own mixes time and time again and learning from them. If you`ve got somebody hovering over you making it right all the time it stifles your own learning.

Believe me. Between the education I`ve gained learning from my own mishaps + the stuff I`ve been lucky enough to learn here and the other audio forums out there I`ve got plenty enough to at least compete with the locals churning out crappy demos.

A 20 Year old kid could compete with a lot of the guys out there too if he was doing it every day 5 - 6 days a week for a year.

From there it`s just your own ability to learn from your mistakes. It`s just like any buisness really.

I just don't hope bigger studio's will go the way of the dinosaur, because record labels just want to save money, as there is a lot of knowledge going on in there... ]

I hear you there too and it makes me sad that a lot of these big studios that recorded my favorite songs when I was a kid are going under these days. It`s weird man. In this day and age where Walmart and othere stores like it are swallowing up the small Mom n` Pop stores out there the exact opposite seems to be happening slowly but surely in the music industry. (theoretically at least) You can make a hit record in your living room these days and everybody knows it.

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by strauss


I just don't hope bigger studio's will go the way of the dinosaur, because record labels just want to save money, as there is a lot of knowledge going on in there...

Studios don't contain knowledge... people do. And the studios that are failing are the same studios that don't care enough to pay a talented AE what he/she deserves when they can get the next batch of AE school grads for 6 months of slave labor followed by minimum wage til they develop skills and leave in disgust (or can't hang and fail), and the cycle keeps repeating.

[covert]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Is your goal to work at a major "sound motel" one day?

To do exclusively music recording?

My point was just that the recording field is just not limited to music alone and there are other industries that need engineers.

One of the fastest growing one's are the guys that do the Forensic stuff for the law enforcement agencies.

Also a lot of books are now being commited to DVD's.

Somebody needs to do these jobs.

Why limit it just to one field?

I'm not sure what my goal is these days. I would like to earn a modest living doing work that I enjoy, and that isn't based on the strength of my back. I actually did get your point, and was making a counter point. People tend to try to do things they like. I'd go pretty nuts recording jingles and voiceovers for local ads. I'd have moral dilemmas about working for police agencies. I catually have some doubts about my capabilities to do serious film work. I got into recording through liking music, and being technically oriented. But liking music is still the root.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by kevinc
...I imagine I could benefit quite a bit just sitting in and watching at a couple sessions at a "real" studio much less spending a couple years there.

But I`m also a firm believer of figuring it out for yourself and recording and mixing for the most part is something that is very unique person to person.
It`s one thing knowing some techniques and tricks people use but it`s another thing entirely to be able to really listen and figure out what a sound needs to fit in a mix right....
...You can make a hit record in your living room these days and everybody knows it.

No two sessions are ever the same so in a sense it's always an experiment. Interning lets you build on the experience of others by giving you a foundation of many different approaches to choose from. The difference between engineers is frequently the size of their toolbox. What's important is to not be squandering an artist's inspiration and patience on reinventing the wheel.

You've always been able to record a hit record in your living room. It's just that your chances of doing it have never been very good and I see few signs that this has really changed. In fact I've been surprised there haven't been a lot more hits coming out of people's living rooms considering the proliferation of recording gear today.

[Tousana]

Working at a big studio isn't all it's cracked up to be but it has it's advantages too.
As far as interning goes,I tell the ones that come my way that it's all in what you put into it. We offer a chance to learn if you want. If you sit on your *** and don't take any initiative you won't learn. Having been in the business for a while I have no problem answering questions from anyone. I don't really have the time to teach someone but if they ask a question,I'll try to answer it for them or point them in the direction of someone else who can. When you start out you have to ask questions,because no question is a stupid one. As you go along you will find your own way of doing things and build your own set of tools for the job,because if you think about it lots of things have been stolen from other peoples work. Example: You ask a question,someone tells you an answer,you try their way and discover its not right for you,so you change it a little and it becomes part of your toolset. The major problem I see now is that some of the people coming from the various programs think they know everything,when in fact they don't. Like I said I've been doing this for a while and I know I don't know everthing or I'd be out of the business. Just kidding,those of use who stay do it because we love it.

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by Tousana
Just kidding,those of use who stay do it because we love it.

the only problem with that is, love don't pay the bills (sounds like a c&w tune)

Tousana, you made lots of great points about interning. The problem is, what do you do with an intern or assistant that has obvious potential, develops skill over time, and wants to utilize those skills within the confines of a 'sound hotel' business model? The only real option is to do it on your own IMHO, either an artist employs you (since you'd be cheaper than an already-established AE), you start freelancing (which isn't really viable if your phone isn't ringing to begin with), or you try to setup your own thing at home or maybe renting a space. Any studio assistant who is comfortable being an assistant and is worth his salt will more than likely find themselves assisting for a producer or mix AE privately, since there's much more $$ in that than assisting at any sound hotel i'm aware of. And there's not many cats who are comfortable assisting without the passion or drive to be doing their own thing, hence a conflict of interest over time.

I'm curious to hear Slipperman's take on this, since he's mentioned it in the past around here and i've had convos with him about it as well. Tremendous insight as always.

[pounce]

Originally posted by kevinc Walmart and othere stores like it are swallowing up the small Mom n` Pop stores out there the exact opposite seems to be happening slowly but surely in the music industry. (theoretically at least) You can make a hit record in your living room these days and everybody knows it. [/B]

and now time for my favorite phrase, "you're shitting me"

that's exactaly what's happening in audio. perhaps the name clearchannel rings a bell. or how many record lables are there now, is it still three? less? you are either signed to like one of the three or you are on your own. so while the discussion is about the new future of music and how we make a living at it, this change is paradigm is paramount. in the future the internet might help with independent music sales. now it's a place for limited free exposure. and everyone has a website and some mp3's, so whoop de doo. i'm glad i'm not relying on that for my living.

i do live work, theatre and video, and corporate work. rock and roll (music in general) is the smaller part of my income. i don't know how anyone will make it in this business. i don't know how i've made it. i do worry, but i've been lucky and each year i've been at this i've gotten a little more work than the year before, so somehow it's working out. but no thanks to the few monopolies who own the labels and airwaves.

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by pounce
how many record lables are there now, is it still three? less?

and from those 3 labels, everything is being mixed by the same 5 AEs

[djui5]

Originally posted by jpaudio
and from those 3 labels, everything is being mixed by the same 5 AEs

It's gonna be 6 soon if I have my way about it...

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Jules:
What's to be the future?

Good question. I think it's here already.

Ever since I started getting serious about recording other artists and musicians, it always felt like photography to me (which happens to be one of my "other sides"). It always felt like capturing the mood and the emotions and the vibe and the energy was the most important thing; and so eliciting those elements and having the "camera" ready and at the right angle was always key, much more so than gear choices.

Meeting an amazing woman at the beginning of this year who happens to work in the fashion industry, my interest in photography has been invigorated this year. That, and the passing this year of two of the titans of modern photography, Helmut Newton and Richard Avedon, has me reflecting even more on the parallels.

In the beginning stages of photography, taking a picture was a cumbersomely mechanical affair. The machines were big, needed technicians to maintain and operate, as well as big studios to house the machines and design the shoots in. The film was bulky and expensive, required care in handling, and careful deliberation in processing. The resulting product of these photography shoots ended up looking fairly homogenous. Much like recording music until fairly recently.

The advent of the hand-held 35mm camera entirely changed that paradigm. Now, anyone who was willing to spring for a camera and a tripod could take brilliant picures. It didn't mean they DID take brilliant pictures, of course. But the medium became less mechanical, and more artistically intuitive. The product became a result of the artistic sensibility of the person holding the camera. Photographers who took the time and the care and the experimentation to master the technical nuances, and meld that expertise with an artistic sensibility which was culturally relevant (as cats like Helmut Newton and Dick Avedon did so masterfully) always found lucrative markets for their works.

So, the subjects of photography were now potentially anywhere - they didn't need to go to a studio anymore. They COULD, but didn't HAVE to. And the photographer was no longer dependant on the big studio, the big machines, the technicians, the bulky media, et al.

Much like recording music today.

Recording music is becoming like photography. Anyone can do it, but not everyone who does it will do it brilliantly, let alone in a culturally relevant way. But those few who are adept at finding brilliant subjects and capturing their essense, will always find lucrative markets for their works.

The future recording titans will be like the Helmut Newtons and Richard Avedons of music recording: Solo pioneers who go out and find compelling subjects to document, and communicate to the masses, unbeholden to the big media conglomerates. They will create their own markets, and the media establishment will come to them, not the other way around.

[entropy]

Originally posted by jpaudio
so very true... especially since most studios don't have much of a hierarchy. Not much staff engineering happening at 'sound hotels', so you're either an intern for no money or an assistant for little money. How long can someone survive on an assistant salary? You can only make so much and take so much shit before you start to realize you want to accel by doing your own projects, and if your studio is too expensive for your personal level of clientel to afford, how is the acceleration ever gonna happen? I left a staff position to do my own thing, and i'm not making much more on my own but I am handling projects from start to finish and gaining more from my daily experiences than I did being demoralized and unappreciated for a pitance of a salary. I understand that it's part of the business, but it's still a very shitty practice when someone is busting their ass for you 24/7 for years. IMHO, studios did themselves in, in many ways. However, I needed those years of experience to give me the background to run a business, and I feel thats what sets me apart from most of the other schmucks out there. I also think recording schools have all but ruined things,......, its not right the way studio owners/managers handle their staff and conduct hiring practices for the most part.

Couldn't agree more jp.

There is certainly studio work out there if you're willing to work for 3rd world wages and do more hours than most ppl do in 2 weeks, but if you want to learn the trade, it's the only route IMO.

Personally, my focus changed and now my time is mine, rather than being at the beck and call of the telephone. I learnt shitloads and had a great time while I was in-house but now I get to pick and choose what I work on, and the schedule. My main source of income now is 9-5 pimping and picking up the odd bit of freelance when feel like it.

The other about working a ppl home's is also a valid one. That is now my main source of freelance work and has been for the past few yrs. The hours are more sociable and the $$$ is more consistent than what I was getting in studio land which varied from sweet FA to sweet.

[Peter Morrison]

I realize that as the rate of new "Recording Students" "graduate" from their schools, the number of positions shrinks to a miniscule number. Yet, I am one of these students, what do you say to me? I'm already 2 years in to a 4 year degree (Bachelors of Music in Recording.) Too far in to leave. What should the wanna be n00b do to get in with the elite?

Peter

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by Peter Morrison
I realize that as the rate of new "Recording Students" "graduate" from their schools, the number of positions shrinks to a miniscule number. Yet, I am one of these students, what do you say to me? I'm already 2 years in to a 4 year degree (Bachelors of Music in Recording.) Too far in to leave. What should the wanna be n00b do to get in with the elite?

Peter

Peter, take this with a grain of salt, as you should most of the opinions on any of these forums... but in my humble opinion, that degree won't do a damn bit of good unless you plan to teach someday. It'll give you a feeling of accomplishment, and that in and of itself can be rewarding, but it won't put food on your table. I went to a university, majored in audio recording, and left after 2 years because a great oppurtunity fell onto my lap. I knew that the oppurtunity would benefit me much more than getting a degree, so I split. I don't regret my decision, but knowing what I know at this point, i would suggest having a back-up plan in the works. Of course, no student with wide-eyed hopes and aspirations wants to hear that (I sure as hell didn't), and you should follow your dreams by all means. It's just not a secure profession... there's no guarantee of anything whatsoever. We talk about slave labor and 3rd world wages, but the truth is, you need to be lucky just to get to THAT point. The hard work definitely pays off at times, and it can be the greatest job on God's green earth, but it can also be a demanding, life-sucking bitch that will stop at nothing to have her way with you, and she ain't too pretty.

[covert]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson You've always been able to record a hit record in your living room. It's just that your chances of doing it have never been very good and I see few signs that this has really changed. In fact I've been surprised there haven't been a lot more hits coming out of people's living rooms considering the proliferation of recording gear today.

I think that has far more to do with the probable lack of access to promotional money and machinery that the living room recordist has, compared to guys with budget for big studios. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if part of the reason companies prefer to see money spent on studios is to keep recoupable costs up, and artists in money slavery, rather than any major difference in acoustic quality.