Tips on getting that modern hard rock sound?

nemisis633 · 26th December 2002, 01:58 AM

Hey everyone,

I'm about to have my first experience with a "Hardcore" band and honestly I'm not looking forward to it. I've done pop/rock/acoustic music in the past but nothing like this. I honestly don't know muchabout getting the kinds of sounds that you hear on records like P.O.D. etc.

Any tips on getting those huge heavily distorted guitars?

thanks guys,
Jon

*in dispair*

AgonizingpaiN · 26th December 2002, 10:22 AM

OK here it goes:

There are two ways to get that modern huge guitar sound:

1) Get the guitarist (if he's tight enuff) to play the same riff and record it at least four times, each time with a different sound. Then mix down to 1 track.

2) Use a guitar splitter system (if u have enuff amps) and mic about 4 different amps with different settings and different mics, then mix to taste and mix down to 1 track. Thats how Andy Sneap does it, thats how Rick Rubin does it, thats how I do it(although I'm not yet in their league).

To get the ultimate guitar sound, use a mesa, VHT, JCM 800, Bogner, and a pod. Make sure each 1 is set differently(as in 1 with alot of low end, one with high mids etc.....)

You can use as many tracks as u like, Rammstein, for example, sometimes have 12 tracks playing the same motha ****in riff!!!

Watch out for phase problems.

I hope this helps, good luck.

I hope Mike Tholen posts about how Ministry got their huge guitar sounds on "Filth Pig", I LOVE that album.

Mike Tholen · 26th December 2002, 06:31 PM

the Ministry stuff was done with a Marshall jmp with a FLAMMABLE sticker on the front (if you've ever seen them live ,you'll know). Al,Louie, or Mikey would either use an SG, Les Paul custom, Charvel Surfcaster, or an Ibanez Iceman.
no distortion pedals. for flange, chorus, and DDL we'd use these old ART 3ru boxes, I can't remember the model but they had the best flange 'warble' that was all over the Ministry stuff.
other than that you need to stack several takes together and they must be tight as ****. if your tracks are not extremely tight you will get shit.
Ministry was a VERY tight band, we didn't have PT to 'fix' shit.
tracks were labored over (especialy Psalm 69-like for 18 months!).

'take your time' is the best advice I can give.

Bob Olhsson · 26th December 2002, 07:43 PM

"Modern" seems to be defined as a heartbeat after Hendrix did it....

Han · 26th December 2002, 08:24 PM

What about recording the guitar via DI to an extra track, I mean the clean signal, and send it to any guitar amp you like afterwards. Maybe even with a 10-20 msec delay?

Mike Tholen · 26th December 2002, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Han
What about recording the guitar via DI to an extra track, I mean the clean signal, and send it to any guitar amp you like afterwards. Maybe even with a 10-20 msec delay?

I've found that the player NEEDS to 'play' the amp as well as the guitar.
although I haven't tried your idea.

I'm from the skool where you get the 'right' sound before you start recording.
thus comes mix time and your 90% there already.
call me crazy.

AgonizingpaiN · 26th December 2002, 11:14 PM

Quote:

if your tracks are not extremely tight you will get shit.

If you do not have tight guitarists then rent a few amps and use the guitar splitter technique.

Hey Mike, am I to understand that Ministry's guitars were recorded direct? If not, then what power amp was used with the JMP?

toledo3 · 26th December 2002, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Tholen
the Ministry stuff was done with a Marshall jmp with a FLAMMABLE sticker on the front (if you've ever seen them live ,you'll know). Al,Louie, or Mikey would either use an SG, Les Paul custom, Charvel Surfcaster, or an Ibanez Iceman.
no distortion pedals. for flange, chorus, and DDL we'd use these old ART 3ru boxes, I can't remember the model but they had the best flange 'warble' that was all over the Ministry stuff.
other than that you need to stack several takes together and they must be tight as ****. if your tracks are not extremely tight you will get shit.
Ministry was a VERY tight band, we didn't have PT to 'fix' shit.
tracks were labored over (especialy Psalm 69-like for 18 months!).

'take your time' is the best advice I can give.

Wow, I am dense. I finally realized why your name seemed familiar... duh! You were really at the cutting edge... when you guys came out, you could really HEAR the work that had been put into it. Yeah, I can remember the first time I saw ministry on 120 minutes- it hit just like whenever you first hear one of the greats.. so "overt"...like the first time you hear "Foxey Lady" or something.

Han · 26th December 2002, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Tholen
I haven't tried your idea.

Mike, I have, and sometimes it works, sometimes not, but you sure can make a ton of distortion by sending 10+volts into a Marshall

without any feedback!

Mike Tholen · 27th December 2002, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AgonizingpaiN
If you do not have tight guitarists then rent a few amps and use the guitar splitter technique.

Hey Mike, am I to understand that Ministry's guitars were recorded direct? If not, then what power amp was used with the JMP?

I have a really kick ass splitter by Jester called 'Hydra' but I haven't had a chance to use it.
I have 2 rectifiers, a Matchless 'jourgenson', Marshall 800, AC30, and some other crap to **** around with... so it's quite a can of worms to deal with.

and the Ministry gtrs were jmp into a marshall amp, and I also forgot to mention the mk II 50 watt, all stock no mods.
57 stuffed in front, sometimes a 451.

Steve Smith · 27th December 2002, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Tholen
I've found that the player NEEDS to 'play' the amp as well as the guitar.
although I haven't tried your idea.

I'm from the skool where you get the 'right' sound before you start recording.
thus comes mix time and your 90% there already.
call me crazy.

you are crazy. right, but crazy..

jeronimo · 27th December 2002, 01:53 AM

I have a project in the house now that used a dual rectifier to record the guitars.
Two guitar players, two diferent guitars and each one played twice each song.
I have to agree that if the players aren't tight, the more tracks they lay down, the worst they sound... :eek:
Sad but true... also phasing can destroy a heavy guitar sound...

jeronimo · 27th December 2002, 01:56 AM

by the way... do you guys use reverb on those kind of "modern" heavy rock guitar tacks?

planet red · 27th December 2002, 02:06 AM

Heres some of the stuff I do when a band comes in wanting those modern rock sounds....

1. Record dual rectifiers for all the rhythmn tracks.
2. Heavily compress the room mics on drums.
3. Use a TON of mults on everything in the mix and use different layers of compression.... and keep the faders moving a lot.
4. Augment drum sounds with samples... (noone seems to like this, but a whole lot of 'modern rock' producers do it and is a lot of times part of the sound)
5. Distort snare and bass guitar mults and bring them up underneath the original track.

Theres a whole lot more stuff, but im feeling a little braindead at the moment

. I really think recording this type of stuff is fun.

Mike Tholen · 27th December 2002, 02:08 AM

no verb.
but I do use my Quantec QRS on"ENHANCE" mode and tuck it under the others.
if I'm not around a QRS I'll use a H949 to do the same thing.
it just thickens them up a bit.
I really like the sound of a Coles 4038 the past 5 or 6 years...

adam_w · 27th December 2002, 09:52 AM

That ART unit sounds like it was probably a "nightbass" or SG-X. Cool units...they did _everything_ !rollz

jeronimo · 27th December 2002, 01:22 PM

Hey, I have a nightbass sitting around... I guess I will give it a try!!

Mike Tholen · 27th December 2002, 06:02 PM

yeah, it was an SG-X!
I stilll have a pedal board sitting around somewhere.

cram · 27th December 2002, 06:26 PM

Hey Mike, I didn't know you worked on Psalm 69. That is one of my favorite go to reference albums. I pretty much dig all Ministry from "A Mind..." onward. If you don't mind me asking, what other albums did you work on with them?

Mike Tholen · 27th December 2002, 07:04 PM

Filth Pig

nemisis633 · 27th December 2002, 07:08 PM

Thanks for the responses everyone. At least I'm beggining to understand what it takes to get that huge wall of guitars. So are marshalls pretty much the only way to fly?

Jon

Han · 27th December 2002, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nemisis633
So are marshalls pretty much the only way to fly?

Jon

Nope, I had great results with Hiwatt amps, Mesa, Peavy 5150, but the best sound was with a "Koch" amp.
Koch is a Dutch amp.

AgonizingpaiN · 27th December 2002, 11:44 PM

Quote:

So are marshalls pretty much the only way to fly?

No t at all, in fact, most of 2days rock bands are using Mesa triple rectifiers. Believe it or not, the only useable Marshall, imho, is the jcm 800, and it aint much when it comes to versatility. Just remember, TUBE amps are the BEST way to go. Otherwise, use an emulator of some sort like the POD. Good luck.

Hey Mike, I'm very curios to know what other bands you've worked with.

jeronimo · 28th December 2002, 03:43 AM

Yeah, I'm curious about other works too! :)
Hey, have anyone heard the Randall Cyclones??? I love the 7dust guit sound and I know they use the Cyclones live... but what about the records? Are the Randalls their main guit sound?

AgonizingpaiN · 28th December 2002, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Hey, have anyone heard the Randall Cyclones??? I love the 7dust guit sound and I know they use the Cyclones live... but what about the records? Are the Randalls their main guit sound?

Pantera use Randalls live, but I've heard rumors that they use something else in the studio. I dont know about 7dust though.

NathanEldred · 28th December 2002, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AgonizingpaiN
. Believe it or not, the only useable Marshall, imho, is the jcm 800

I thought I was the only one who thought this...people are so suprised when I say this. But hey I still think the 900's suck no matter what anybody says....after all "don't believe the hype".

Knox · 28th December 2002, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AgonizingpaiN
No t at all, in fact, most of 2days rock bands are using Mesa triple rectifiers.

Yea . . just think, you can get a Dual or Triple rectifier (rectum-flyer) and sound JUST like everybody else!! Get a Paul Reed Smith, drop your tuning . . get a singer that tries to sound like everyone else . . . and you are on your way to being exactly like everyone else!!!! *smile*

Geez what the hell happened to originality? Damn near every band that comes in here has the same amp, same guitar, same singer, they look like and dress like the band that just left, they all act the same (ACT tough and hard even though they are pusses . . to ACT like you don't care is IN these days . . but that takes CARING to act like you don't care *lol*) . . . . . . and they are all chopping up all the other bands for having no originality.

It's so refreshing when I'm advancing the date with a band . . . to find out that they DON'T have a Mesa, VHT, Ibanez or a Paul Reed Smith . . . . nor do they drop tune.

bassmac · 28th December 2002, 08:17 AM

Well said!

adamcal · 28th December 2002, 01:49 PM

I have the gituar player bring their usual amp plus 1 other one. I get their sound with usual equipment and double the majority of the gituar.

Then I setup the other amp, I always use a different mic, pre amp and possition in the room. try to get a different but complimentary sound, again double away.

so I end up with 4 tracks then I can either have all playing or selectivly mute, pan or ride in different sections. for the full on sections have all 4 rocking.

One thing about many hardcore/metal/grind/death metal is that they tend to get a sound and play through all their songs and it can get a bit samey. If you have a few different sounds on different tracks you can at least move things about.

For me, a mono track doubled and paned a bit always sounds better than 1 gituar through 2 amps and 2 (or more) mics.

If the player really wants to use 2 amps, ask them to record through one, then the other as a overdub.

g.longest · 28th December 2002, 04:11 PM

I've always thought of the Mesa Dual/Triple recti as a somewhat "hollow" sounding amplifier. IME, the only mesa's that have sounded somewhat decent for "metal" were the mk4 heads.

For hardcore (hardcore punk, not nu-metal/deathmetal/or "art" core), my preferences have leaned torwards Laney VH (which can sound very similar to a good Jcm 800, but with more available gain and a decent eq section-in fact, the only downside is the thing is *louder than god*), or Jcm 800. In most circumstances, the heads were driving marshall "1960" 4x12's.

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26th December 2002, 01:58 AM	#1
nemisis633 Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: KY.. Posts: 206	Tips on getting that modern hard rock sound? Hey everyone, I'm about to have my first experience with a "Hardcore" band and honestly I'm not looking forward to it. I've done pop/rock/acoustic music in the past but nothing like this. I honestly don't know muchabout getting the kinds of sounds that you hear on records like P.O.D. etc. Any tips on getting those huge heavily distorted guitars? thanks guys, Jon in dispair

26th December 2002, 07:43 PM	#4
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 5,273	"Modern" seems to be defined as a heartbeat after Hendrix did it.... __________________ Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Bob's room 615 385-8051 Music Industry 2.0

27th December 2002, 01:53 AM	#12
jeronimo Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Salvador, BA - Brazil Posts: 2,536	I have a project in the house now that used a dual rectifier to record the guitars. Two guitar players, two diferent guitars and each one played twice each song. I have to agree that if the players aren't tight, the more tracks they lay down, the worst they sound... :eek: Sad but true... also phasing can destroy a heavy guitar sound... __________________ Think Diferente! www.verticeestudio.com http://www.myspace.com/jelmet

27th December 2002, 01:56 AM	#13
jeronimo Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Salvador, BA - Brazil Posts: 2,536	by the way... do you guys use reverb on those kind of "modern" heavy rock guitar tacks? __________________ Think Diferente! www.verticeestudio.com http://www.myspace.com/jelmet

26th December 2002, 10:22 AM	#2
AgonizingpaiN Gear nut Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 76	OK here it goes: There are two ways to get that modern huge guitar sound: 1) Get the guitarist (if he's tight enuff) to play the same riff and record it at least four times, each time with a different sound. Then mix down to 1 track. 2) Use a guitar splitter system (if u have enuff amps) and mic about 4 different amps with different settings and different mics, then mix to taste and mix down to 1 track. Thats how Andy Sneap does it, thats how Rick Rubin does it, thats how I do it(although I'm not yet in their league). To get the ultimate guitar sound, use a mesa, VHT, JCM 800, Bogner, and a pod. Make sure each 1 is set differently(as in 1 with alot of low end, one with high mids etc.....) You can use as many tracks as u like, Rammstein, for example, sometimes have 12 tracks playing the same motha ****in riff!!! Watch out for phase problems. I hope this helps, good luck. I hope Mike Tholen posts about how Ministry got their huge guitar sounds on "Filth Pig", I LOVE that album.

26th December 2002, 06:31 PM	#3
Mike Tholen Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 823	the Ministry stuff was done with a Marshall jmp with a FLAMMABLE sticker on the front (if you've ever seen them live ,you'll know). Al,Louie, or Mikey would either use an SG, Les Paul custom, Charvel Surfcaster, or an Ibanez Iceman. no distortion pedals. for flange, chorus, and DDL we'd use these old ART 3ru boxes, I can't remember the model but they had the best flange 'warble' that was all over the Ministry stuff. other than that you need to stack several takes together and they must be tight as ****. if your tracks are not extremely tight you will get shit. Ministry was a VERY tight band, we didn't have PT to 'fix' shit. tracks were labored over (especialy Psalm 69-like for 18 months!). 'take your time' is the best advice I can give.

26th December 2002, 08:24 PM	#5
Han Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Netherlands Posts: 836	What about recording the guitar via DI to an extra track, I mean the clean signal, and send it to any guitar amp you like afterwards. Maybe even with a 10-20 msec delay?

27th December 2002, 02:06 AM	#14
planet red Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: historic richmond va Posts: 652	Heres some of the stuff I do when a band comes in wanting those modern rock sounds.... 1. Record dual rectifiers for all the rhythmn tracks. 2. Heavily compress the room mics on drums. 3. Use a TON of mults on everything in the mix and use different layers of compression.... and keep the faders moving a lot. 4. Augment drum sounds with samples... (noone seems to like this, but a whole lot of 'modern rock' producers do it and is a lot of times part of the sound) 5. Distort snare and bass guitar mults and bring them up underneath the original track. Theres a whole lot more stuff, but im feeling a little braindead at the moment . I really think recording this type of stuff is fun.

27th December 2002, 02:08 AM	#15
Mike Tholen Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 823	no verb. but I do use my Quantec QRS on"ENHANCE" mode and tuck it under the others. if I'm not around a QRS I'll use a H949 to do the same thing. it just thickens them up a bit. I really like the sound of a Coles 4038 the past 5 or 6 years...

27th December 2002, 09:52 AM	#16
adam_w Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: England Posts: 249	That ART unit sounds like it was probably a "nightbass" or SG-X. Cool units...they did _everything_ !rollz

27th December 2002, 01:22 PM	#17
jeronimo Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Salvador, BA - Brazil Posts: 2,536	Hey, I have a nightbass sitting around... I guess I will give it a try!! __________________ Think Diferente! www.verticeestudio.com http://www.myspace.com/jelmet

27th December 2002, 06:02 PM	#18
Mike Tholen Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 823	yeah, it was an SG-X! I stilll have a pedal board sitting around somewhere.

27th December 2002, 06:26 PM	#19
cram Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: salt lake city Posts: 211	Hey Mike, I didn't know you worked on Psalm 69. That is one of my favorite go to reference albums. I pretty much dig all Ministry from "A Mind..." onward. If you don't mind me asking, what other albums did you work on with them? __________________ Duuuuude.

27th December 2002, 07:04 PM	#20
Mike Tholen Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 823	Filth Pig

27th December 2002, 07:08 PM	#21
nemisis633 Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: KY.. Posts: 206	Thanks for the responses everyone. At least I'm beggining to understand what it takes to get that huge wall of guitars. So are marshalls pretty much the only way to fly? Jon

28th December 2002, 03:43 AM	#24
jeronimo Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Salvador, BA - Brazil Posts: 2,536	Yeah, I'm curious about other works too! :) Hey, have anyone heard the Randall Cyclones??? I love the 7dust guit sound and I know they use the Cyclones live... but what about the records? Are the Randalls their main guit sound? __________________ Think Diferente! www.verticeestudio.com http://www.myspace.com/jelmet

28th December 2002, 08:17 AM	#28
bassmac Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 685	Well said!

28th December 2002, 01:49 PM	#29
adamcal Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,117	I have the gituar player bring their usual amp plus 1 other one. I get their sound with usual equipment and double the majority of the gituar. Then I setup the other amp, I always use a different mic, pre amp and possition in the room. try to get a different but complimentary sound, again double away. so I end up with 4 tracks then I can either have all playing or selectivly mute, pan or ride in different sections. for the full on sections have all 4 rocking. One thing about many hardcore/metal/grind/death metal is that they tend to get a sound and play through all their songs and it can get a bit samey. If you have a few different sounds on different tracks you can at least move things about. For me, a mono track doubled and paned a bit always sounds better than 1 gituar through 2 amps and 2 (or more) mics. If the player really wants to use 2 amps, ask them to record through one, then the other as a overdub. __________________ Adam Calaitzis www.toyland.com.au

28th December 2002, 04:11 PM	#30
g.longest Gear Head Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 54	I've always thought of the Mesa Dual/Triple recti as a somewhat "hollow" sounding amplifier. IME, the only mesa's that have sounded somewhat decent for "metal" were the mk4 heads. For hardcore (hardcore punk, not nu-metal/deathmetal/or "art" core), my preferences have leaned torwards Laney VH (which can sound very similar to a good Jcm 800, but with more available gain and a decent eq section-in fact, the only downside is the thing is louder than god), or Jcm 800. In most circumstances, the heads were driving marshall "1960" 4x12's.