Cherub Rock Guitars

[pfo]

Can someone with more perceptive ears than mine listen to the song Cherub Rock by the Smashing Pumpkins and tell me what's going on with the clean guitar in the intro? Is it recorded in stereo and simply being panned from the middle out to the sides? Or is it something more complex than that?

Thanks!

[skythemusic]

Billy Corgan listened to the bridge of the Rush song By-Tor and the Snowdog and then played his octave e chord with a strat and a small stone. As I recall, that is a pretty mono guitar at the beginning. Maybe the phase of the small stone makes it seem stereo?? I haven't heard it in a while...one of my favorite tunes though. Awesome flangy guitar solo.

[rockrev]

I read that he dropped to E-flat. Haven't checked, though. Might explain why it sounds "different."

dj

[SlingeroGuitaro]

perfect example of mutron bi-phase

[macleodgrant]

i think he used the marshall JMP1

[Strobian]

Originally Posted by SlingeroGuitaro

perfect example of mutron bi-phase

They used the Mutron Biphase on almost everything on that album. I read a interview years ago on it.

[skythemusic]

They did use the mu-tron biphase but I have heard from a second engineer on those sessions that a lot of that talk was kind of an insider joke. If you watch Viuphoria they talk about running everything through a mu-tron bi-phase. However, my friend showed me some outtakes from that and there are clips of them saying that same thing about 20 different pieces of gear. Hence the insider joke. No doubt it was highly used but Corgan and Iha also had small stones strapped to their guitars live at some points and they certainly used them, regularly at least through Gish. Both cool phasers ether way.


Marshall JMP-1 on Gish which Billy has said he hated the guitar tones on that record.

[BLUElightCory]

Ahh, Siamese Dream. That record taught me how to play guitar, and is also the reason I spent much of my young life researching the Pumpkins and their guitar tones and gear.

A few things:

- Corgan used an ADA MP-1 on Gish, not the JMP-1.

- The main guitar tone on Siamese Dream was predominantly created by Strats with Fender Lace Sensor pickups, fuzz pedals (Sovtek/EH Big Muff, Fender Blender, etc.) and Marshall heads and cabs. Corgan has said that they would max out the master volume on the Marshalls and then use the preamp gain like a master volume.

- I'm pretty sure they started using the JMP-1 between Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie.

- The Mutron BiPhase thing is an inside joke, though I'm sure they did plug one in from time to time.

[SlingeroGuitaro]

they 'everything through it' may have been a joke, but the effect on the clean guitars on cherub rock sound like they are definitely going through it. its phasing 2 times at once, in two different directions.

even the distorted guitars are phasing or flanging a good amount but i can't really tell what is going on with them because they are so fuzzy

[pfo]

So then it's a phasing thing and not some panning trick?

[theblotted]

i'm sure it's phasing, but listening carefully it starts out mono and then it starts to pan out, so could be both.

or it could be, as mentioned in Viewphoria, the "Vertical Extrapolator".

i was Geek USA enough to Google it, and came up short (duh).

[84K]

He didn't use it, but the Creamy Dreamer pedal is like Billy Corgan's sound in a box.

[skythemusic]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

Ahh, Siamese Dream. That record taught me how to play guitar, and is also the reason I spent much of my young life researching the Pumpkins and their guitar tones and gear.

A few things:

- Corgan used an ADA MP-1 on Gish, not the JMP-1.

- The main guitar tone on Siamese Dream was predominantly created by Strats with Fender Lace Sensor pickups, fuzz pedals (Sovtek/EH Big Muff, Fender Blender, etc.) and Marshall heads and cabs. Corgan has said that they would max out the master volume on the Marshalls and then use the preamp gain like a master volume.

- I'm pretty sure they started using the JMP-1 between Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie.

- The Mutron BiPhase thing is an inside joke, though I'm sure they did plug one in from time to time.

Oops, I did mean the ADA Mp-1 on Gish. You are correct that they didn't use the Marshall until after Siamese. Cherub may be the mutron but I still think its the modified small stone.

[dnaflr2]

Originally Posted by rockrev

I read that he dropped to E-flat. Haven't checked, though. Might explain why it sounds "different."

dj

No this track is standard tuning.

[dnaflr2]

Originally Posted by SlingeroGuitaro

they 'everything through it' may have been a joke, but the effect on the clean guitars on cherub rock sound like they are definitely going through it. its phasing 2 times at once, in two different directions.

even the distorted guitars are phasing or flanging a good amount but i can't really tell what is going on with them because they are so fuzzy

The fuzzy guitars are swichiy and phasing in and out simply because there are so many layers upon layers. In regards to the flanginon the solo this is exactly what it is- (2) open reel decks playing back in sync and someone grabbed a hold of one of the reels to produce the flanging.

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by 84K

He didn't use it, but the Creamy Dreamer pedal is like Billy Corgan's sound in a box.

SP used the Creamy Dreamer on their newer album, Machina. i know this cuz i was one of the guys who came up with the name for the pedal back in the day... ah those ICQ chats.

[jefft]

I just wanted to clear up some of the info in this thread at least what I remember. I engineered Siamese Dream with Butch Vig at Triclops Studio in Atlanta GA.
Billy's setup was a Marshall 100W head with KT66 tubes (the tube sockets had to have a mod to accept these). The preamp was a JMP1. He played many of the tracks with a Strat with Lace Sensor pickups as previously stated.
I am happy to answer anything I can remember but this was 16 years ago so I may not be clear on everything.

[pfo]

Thanks Jeff, good to hear your input!

My question, which was just out of sheer curiosity, was about the clean guitar sound during the intro of Cherub Rock. Is that just a phaser, as many have suggested? It seems to start mono and then spread to stereo.

Cheers!

[Sean Sullivan]

I'm pretty sure the latest EQ magazine talks about recording a variety of Smashing Pumpkins records.

[the yeti]

i thought mark richardson (rip) engineered that record, and to add to the pedal list, he told me a lot of fuzz was done with a univox supafuzz

[Companda]

Mark Richardson and Jeff Tomei.

I'm interested as to how much time was spent on the guitars Jeff. Many reports say that Corgan was anal about even the smallest parts. Was it really excessive and was it tiresome to work with someone like that.

[Daniel Antix]

Originally Posted by rockrev

I read that he dropped to E-flat. Haven't checked, though. Might explain why it sounds "different."

dj

most of MCIS was Eb tunning... I think Geek USA was the only song on SD with Eb tunning... but i could be wrong.

[theblotted]

Originally Posted by Daniel Antix

most of MCIS was Eb tunning... I think Geek USA was the only song on SD with Eb tunning... but i could be wrong.

i thought most of the album was done with Eb, except Hummer with Down-D.



Jeff, great having you here, welcome!

can you share with us how you guys did the intro effect on 'Cherub' (pan/phase, etc.)?

[3rd world order]

Eb, big muff, fender GTRs (single coils), tape @ 15ips

prolly neve modules & a pultec

cool sound.

[rectifier]

Everytime i hear cherub rock i am transported back to early 90s. Cloudy dark bars, late nights, hugging the bar with friends and possibly missing uni a few more times than I should have. I remember I went on a camping trip with some buddies on the west coast of France and we took the stereo down to the beach and blasted mayonnaise and jumped around like madmen. We got so wasted we left the stereo on the beach and crawled back trying to find our tents waking up all the Germans and northern French peepz who had same colour tents but it wasn't ours.

Had to share, sorry.. What a great record!

Btw.. skreddy mayo pedal.. you know it makes sense.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by jefft

I just wanted to clear up some of the info in this thread at least what I remember. I engineered Siamese Dream with Butch Vig at Triclops Studio in Atlanta GA.
Billy's setup was a Marshall 100W head with KT66 tubes (the tube sockets had to have a mod to accept these). The preamp was a JMP1. He played many of the tracks with a Strat with Lace Sensor pickups as previously stated.
I am happy to answer anything I can remember but this was 16 years ago so I may not be clear on everything.

Hi Jeff,

I remember reading somewhere that it was the same Marshall 4x12 used for all the guitar sounds. Was that true? What mic(s) were typically used on all the fuzz guitar parts? Was it is just a single mic or multiple?

Thanks for sharing this info with us! Siamese Dream was one of two records that inspired me to buy my first 4-track recorder.

thanks,
Brad

[biggator6]

the Creamy Dreamer pedal is like Billy Corgan's sound in a box.

The Creamy Dreamer is a Big Muff with a whole bunch of choice tweaks. The guy who built it hung out at the diystompboxes forum and picked everyone's brains for the best tweaks, then built an 'ultimate' big muff (then refused to tell everyone which tweaks he used).

It seems to go for the late 70's BM tone.. I have 2, a green russian and a late 70's big muff.. the late 70's one absolutely nails the siamese dream tone.

search around diystompboxes.com archive for it.. LOTS of, um, discussion on that topic.

Also - when I met Billy and company during the Siamese Dream tour - he had a JMP1, a Mesa Triaxis and at least one other preamp in his rack.. used a splitting/switching (believe it was an Uptown Flash/Great Divide) sytem to go between them.

[84K]

The Creamy Dreamer is as close to getting SP in a box as you are ever going to get.

[monkeyxx]

Originally Posted by dnaflr2

No this track is standard tuning.

yeah, I used to tune my guitar to the intro

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

Eb, big muff, fender GTRs (single coils), tape @ 15ips

prolly neve modules & a pultec

cool sound.

lol! it's funny to add to a thread with a wild guess (including two wrong facts) after more informed posts have already been made. I like the idea of knowing the neve sound when you hear it, though. another example of "will get pretty close but probably not identical", which aint a bad way to go about getting the sounds you want, in your engineering daily work

billy corgan himself, in the "guitar geek USA" column, wrote that it was KT88 tubes in his marshall, not KT66...yet another contradiction

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by monkeyxx

lol! it's funny to add to a thread with a wild guess (including two wrong facts) after more informed posts have already been made. I like the idea of knowing the neve sound when you hear it, though. another example of "will get pretty close but probably not identical", which aint a bad way to go about getting the sounds you want, in your engineering daily work

billy corgan himself, in the "guitar geek USA" column, wrote that it was KT88 tubes in his marshall, not KT66...yet another contradiction

if you'll notice i put them in order of probability...

didnt actually read the rest of the thread before i posted.. neve & pultec cuz pretty much all the sounds ppl like come down to neve and pultec anyhow.

should have stuck 4x12 marshall in there too