Comparison Lexi 960L vs Plug Ins

[Mr.HOLMES]

Hi Slutz,

inspired thorough Tony Shepperd his reverb tips on Techbreakfast: A forum by music professionals for music professionals - Powered by vBulletin
I tried to mimic an ambiance effect by a lexicon 960 L with Plug Ins.

Took me a long time and I had to go further but Tony was the initiator.

I got the test files from a german test review of the 960 L
http://http://www.amazona.de/index.p...article_id=659

You can download my comparison here for sure it is not the Lexi but enough for my needs.

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Thank you Tony for your advises....

[Mr.HOLMES]

I have tweaked my Plug Ins a little more and now I can come pretty close....
You can download the better version here and compare it with the original....

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[edwardsean]

As you said it is not exactly the same, but it sounds really pretty good--definitely usable as a replacement. If you don't mind revealing, what plug-ins and settings did you use?

[Mr.HOLMES]

No not the same but you have to listen very carefully ....... to hear it... in comparison of the price very good!!!!!

I have a new idea to come much more closer-as the last file...
I will post tomorrow the new sound file.

I am tiered and got to go to sleep

[Carnivale]

Please, tell us what plugins are used in your very impressive experiment?
Thanks

[shaneoconnor]

is this the response of the listener?

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by Carnivale

Please, tell us what plugins are used in your very impressive experiment?
Thanks

Yes I will do this in the End... I will try to improve it a little more and post another sound file which you can compare.

It would be easier to own the unit last year have seen one going away at e-bay with LARC for 2.555,- Euro. Underpaid a lot.
I was very fret about that I have not bit with the auction I wanted to bit and than I told myself it will end up 10.000 Euro or so.......

Just give me time for a new sound file and than I will talk about what I did....

[Mr.HOLMES]

Hi Slutz.

Here is my again optimized version you can compare to the original again It is pretty dam close after I did some more testing that you only will hear something when you listen very carefully.

Download LINK


If you do not own a good room treatment go and listen with good headphones.
The Lexi Unit sounds more 3D non resonant and more alive to me but the Plug In thing is not bad at all.

What I actually did to come there?

Here are the ingredients:
One Unit of Breverb = AUX 1
Two Units of Logic Audios Pitch Shifter = AUX 2
One Unit of UAD CS1 with Delay and Reflection Engine = AUX 3
One Altiverb MONO IR of Lexicon 960L AMB = AUX 4
One Altiverb Stereo IR of Lexicon 960L AMB = AUX 5

To show up every setup with every plug in it would be extending the scope here and I would have to type a very very long story.

You have the files you have some ears and some basics about room acoustics?
Go and try it for your self.

To be fair the Lexicon 960 L stereo Impulse is one out of the Halls of Fame IR package and not from Altiverb.

If you have questions ask me.....

[Carnivale]

Sounds very cool but why don’t you post some pictures of your set up?! Just like Tony Shepperd did. I always thought that ITB due to its flexibility can actually offer even better results than OTB we just need more experimentations and less conventional thinking. I also think that you might want to add some subtle chorus modulation for
that extra 3d element.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by Carnivale

Sounds very cool but why don’t you post some pictures of your set up?! Just like Tony Shepperd did. I always thought that ITB due to its flexibility can actually offer even better results than OTB we just need more experimentations and less conventional thinking. I also think that you might want to add some subtle chorus modulation for
that extra 3d element.

If I would do pictures I have to make a lot of it because some plug INs have not only one window. Also I did many settings on the IRs.

Adding some Chorus instead of the delays sounds good too but for this I have the pitch shifters in one aux.

So this would be my vocal to go for setup depending on the song I would decrease the stereo image. Usually I hate long verbs.
Little rooms sound good to my ears...

This little demonstration shows for me that things can happen ITB with tons of tweaking and thinking how to imitate OTB.

Tony is right and his mantra is going around in my head for some weeks now.

"mixing in the box requires thinking outside the box"

So happy listening and happy tweaking your plug ins.
I will do some pics if I have more time.....

[Carnivale]

Thanks MR.HOLMES for sharing your finding!
About two years ago I was working at someone else’s studio and we found some very special “reverb” simulations that were, to my ears, better then high end outboard reverbs (TC5000 and LX480).We were also using some IR, delays, choruses and pitch shifters/harmonizers . Unfortunately we didn’t document our settings and I have a very hard time to duplicate the sound that we found. Also, to take pictures of your set up shouldn’t take more then a few minutes unless if you don’t want to make it public which is cool to.
Thanks again.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by Carnivale

Thanks MR.HOLMES for sharing your finding!
About two years ago I was working at someone else’s studio and we found some very special “reverb” simulations that were, to my ears, better then high end outboard reverbs (TC5000 and LX480).We were also using some IR, delays, choruses and pitch shifters/harmonizers . Unfortunately we didn’t document our settings and I have a very hard time to duplicate the sound that we found. Also, to take pictures of your set up shouldn’t take more then a few minutes unless if you don’t want to make it public which is cool to.
Thanks again.

I like to share but with the Information you have already you can come pretty close by listening and try and error. The only thing you will miss is the 3D of the Lexi engine......

[Mr.HOLMES]

I have tried to make it better and better.... I ended up with this setup....here for everyone I open up the pandora box:

Ok what I did was this.

On my first I AUX I USED the Breverb for having a more dynamic feel with the Reverb... an IR alone is not breathing with the music.

I created on the Breverb a short room:
Time 200 ms / Size 25% /Diffusion 100%/ Decay 17%

In my second AUX I have two pitch-shifters with 5/-5 cents.

In my third AUX I have the CS 1 from the UAD card with the Delay DUAL for each Channel as well with the reflection engine which is great for adding an extra portion chaotic reflections...



In my last two Auxes you can see two instances of Altiverb which are only working for a dense ER part no tails.
First Instance is mono IR second stereo IR.
Both followed by a logic compressor with short release to make the IR breath with the music.

The stereo IRs in AUX 5 is followed by BT Stereo Spreader of Nomad Factory waht gave me an extra drive for the 3 D room feeling.

Further you can see in my setup that I send AUX 3 into AUX 4/5 crosswise. I do this to ad more chaotic reflections and even to make the ER more dense.

The IRs of the Altiverbs are prepared.
They have nearly no tail I cut it of they only work for the ER. I raised the ERs in the altiverb about 4-5 db.




Why is this sounding so dam good?
I think I know the answer without having ever worked at a Lexicon.

If you read the Manual of the Lexicon 480 L you can see that you also can set Precho-delays. So for me this means they try to create the natural sound as close as they can get.

Most reverb units in the Plug In world sound not very real because there is one fixed delay but this is very unnatural and this is the main thing what bob katz is complaining about reverb.

It seems to me that reverb is sounding much better with very dense ERs which we recreate by the altiverbs. But also a factor is the extra portion of chaotic reflections by the UAD CS-1.

Most people love plate reverb a plate also is having dense ERs too.

Most Plug Ins have a lack of ERs the ERs is a must have for the ear to tell the brain how the room is big or small etc.

If I read the manual of the breverb which is great in anyway someone could come to the conclusion that reverb is a thing which can be calculated because it is an fixed order.

I bet you the big Lexicons have an extra algorithms for random reflections. And this is what the UAD CS-1 does.

Also I think the idea of one fixed predelay if used is totaly wrong and boring to the reverb sound.
Create your own predelays and not only one of it by using delays.

There is only one bad thing about my setup.
Maybe in a big session I can go with 3 and this would bring my mac pro to high CPU LOAD.

It would be my go to vox verb and the rest I would try to cover by good IRs.

I never worked with the setup in a mix I just find it very notable that we can come Close....

Andreas

[jumpnyc]

very cool.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by jumpnyc

very cool.

It would be nice to read some more responses.
Who tried it and made good experience with it?

It was a lot of work to find it out how it could be imitated.

Tell me what you think about it???

[Mr.HOLMES]

So no replies to that... seems that everybody is only interested to buy new gear but not in achieving the skills.

I think this try could be very interesting for young Studios which think to buy a big fat expensive reverb.... Yes it is complicate a bit but left much room to create you own space you like......

[transsylvan]

Congratulations, Mr. Holmes!

Half year ago I sold my Lex960DL because I had the same dream: clever usage of well-written plugins can help to a save lot! I bought analogue outboards, and I'm happier than ever before...!

I haven't gone this far yet, but -if you allow me- I will use your experiences!

Keep on exploring, Holmes!
Best Wishes!

[Animus]

Very cool but that's a whole lot of stuff in the signal chain to setup and manage. Just get a real Lexicon. Boom. Done. ;-)

[Mr.HOLMES]

@transsylvan
Thanks for the nice reply by you it makes me a little proud.
You are right with selling that fat Lexi machine and taking the money....you can rebuild it by your own now!!!!

I am by far not well blessed with technical understanding. I know some basics about reverb units and about room acoustics that is all and I have used my ears. My very last try I have not postet this file here was in the End with no difference......it was the same for my ears I could not believe it for days. The last trick was the stereo spreader behind the last Altiverb unit which gave the 3D feeling to my ears.

For sure use it!!!!
I share this for all of us because it is a shame that we have not a single plug in that is doing the LEXI thing....I think the most company's are afraid of the enormous resarch effort for getting real world class reverb.

I guess my experiment showed us that a combination out of IRs and algorithm reverb would do the trick....all plug in reverbs except the UAD Plate are having a lack of dense ERs which are covered in my experiment with the two Altiverbs in the last AUXs.

Also I found out if you have good IRs in the last two channels of other famous units this gives the thing the typical sound of the units.

We had a plug IN that worked like this it was the Wizzo W2 reverb which was bought by digi and is now TDM only.

So if any developer is reading this...come on if I can rebuild such an reverb it should be possible to do it in one thing???? I hope?????
@Animus

Very cool but that's a whole lot of stuff in the signal chain to setup and manage. Just get a real Lexicon. Boom. Done. ;-)

Can you effort a 15.000 € reverb unit???? I can not!!!

Yes for sure it would be nice to get the real thing and would maybe make my life easy. But for me I see mixing in the box as a challenge which I will do my best.

But for true how many on top reverbs do I need in a Session...1 for the Voice?
I normally I end up with 3 or 4 reverbs. I see this as a good replacer as long as my Studio is not bringing the top volume of sales.

I would use one instance of my Lexicon Imitation and I would try to do the rest reverbs with Breverb and Tony Shepperad setups.

Also I found out if you have good IRs in the last two channels of other famous units this gives the thing the typical sound of the units.

By far too all of you check breverb if you do not have it.
It is for me the most flexible algorithm reverb I have seen/heard.
I love the plug in so much that I am doing advertising for free on my website.....

[xist]

Hi, what you mean exactly with "The IRs of the Altiverbs are prepared" ?

Which IRs are you talking about?

Thanks :-)

[Mr.HOLMES]

I took two IRs of the Lexi 960 L.
One which I found in the Internet this is the MONO to Stereo IR.
One which is out of the very well sampeld libraray Halls of Fame.

I took such a short decay in the Altiverb that I only have the Early Reflexions no Tail!!!
In the great Altiverb IR Plug in you can raise the intense of the ERs which I did too.
I love Altiverb for this future.

You can see it in the picture I made above.

Behind the two Altiverbs I put an logic compressor with a short release and middle attack and good portion of threshold. The compressors raise the reverb with the music a little bit.
Without the compressors the IRs reverb is a little to static.

If you have further Questions please ask over and over again.

[camerondye]

Thanks for doing all this work, it really brings up your karma points something serious. Great job...

BTW, do you think that Halls of Fame IR's are worth it????
cam

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by camerondye

Thanks for doing all this work, it really brings up your karma points something serious. Great job...
BTW, do you think that Halls of Fame IR's are worth it????
cam

Thanks.... I have tried many IR for free on the WEB some are good like the Lexicon PCM 60 but the most IRs have a lack of the tail..... if you need it.
If you listen carefully to the original Lexicon Reverb files you can hear a nice long tail....most self made IR are lacking of the after reverberation (do not know the correct English term)...they stop to early.

Hals of Fame is Sampled by a German Enginner Wolfgang Lenden and it is worth every penny....trust me I was amazed by this IRs.
He used the High Definition Impulse Response process which is developed by a German engineer team too. This also was used in the W2 Wizoo Verb.
You have the files in 44.1 khz as well as 48.00 khz.
24 BIT and 32 BIT if your Plug In can handle 32 BIT.
Great all files you have in Altiverb format ready to go.

This is one of the buys I ever made....
Dense ERs nice tails what more do I need????

If you use them SOLO without all the Plug Ins showed here... it is not a Lexi or a TC but there is a slight breeze of it in your studio.....
No matter if you use them SOLO or in combination.
For me they are the greatest IRs I have heard sampled of GEAR.

[lllubi]

you shouldnt expect too many people to respond to your thread at all

such things are treated like "secrets" from engineers and i think only engineers
from Tony Shepperds caliber wouldnt mind to share their knowledge

dont forget that you can get hardware units cheaper than plugins
these days on ebay

[jamwerks]

Nice work Surlock

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by lllubi

you shouldnt expect too many people to respond to your thread at all

1.
Some responses we have here.
I guess 75% of the GS folks do not get what I showed here.
It is not basic effect programming anymore.

Originally Posted by lllubi

such things are treated like "secrets" from engineers and i think only engineers from Tony Shepperds caliber wouldnt mind to share their knowledge

2.
I do not think in any kind of competition between engineers.
I think in collaboration.
And this means that I like to inspire other engineers behind their DAWs...Tony inspired me to find this out.
Now I give back something to the forum.

We all can learn something from a different person/engineer.

Mixing is a lot of fun for me and I like to talk to other engineers or hobbyist what I found out. I do not see my self as an professional!

This term is going to be washed-out by a lot of things in the world of engineering.

There are no secrets which I have to keep and I do not see myself writing an recording or mixing secrets book.
Some engineers earn more money from such a book as from their job as engineer....some books are true and in some books are only rubbish....

Originally Posted by lllubi

dont forget that you can get hardware units cheaper than plugins
these days on ebay

3.
No you can not get a Lexicon 960L for the money what I have spend in Plug Ins at e-bay..... And a PCM 60 for 500$ no true stereo....connecting to the DAW....not my way....also remember that many people write at e. bay: in good condition when the unit arrives it is not function any more...e bay is the wrong place for high end gear.

Andreas

[edwardsean]

Hi,

I would also like to add that I've gotten really interesting effects by combining Breverb with CSR. The two share a lot of similarities, as they share the same goal (recreating vintage high end reverb). However, they do sound different and have captured different elements of Lexicon and TC. Breverb is more dimensional and clear; CSR is flatter but with a wonderful thick color. Sometimes I want mostly CSR but with dimensionality, so I'll run the CSR mix through Breverb running flat at 0% wet. It still heavily affects the signal providing the missing spatial imaging. It also works in reverse when I want more of a clear sound ala Breverb but the result is too clear. Adding in CSR at 0% wet, gives it a nice TC inspired diffusion. This is by no means an attempt to reduplicate an existing hardware unit. But the results are pretty fabulous, one plugin augmenting the other to create a rich dense dimensional reverb.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by edwardsean

Hi,

I would also like to add that I've gotten really interesting effects by combining Breverb with CSR. The two share a lot of similarities, as they share the same goal (recreating vintage high end reverb). However, they do sound different and have captured different elements of Lexicon and TC. Breverb is more dimensional and clear; CSR is flatter but with a wonderful thick color. Sometimes I want mostly CSR but with dimensionality, so I'll run the CSR mix through Breverb running flat at 0% wet. It still heavily affects the signal providing the missing spatial imaging. It also works in reverse when I want more of a clear sound ala Breverb but the result is too clear. Adding in CSR at 0% wet, gives it a nice TC inspired diffusion. This is by no means an attempt to reduplicate an existing hardware unit. But the results are pretty fabulous, one plugin augmenting the other to create a rich dense dimensional reverb.

I do not get it your example!
At 0% WET you have only direct signal no reverb.....can you explain this to us????

[matucha]

Have you tried the (acoustica audio) Nebula plugin? It has also some lexicon stuff and it is not static IR type. Maybe that could help to simplify your system.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by matucha

Have you tried the (acoustica audio) Nebula plugin? It has also some lexicon stuff and it is not static IR type. Maybe that could help to simplify your system.

I would love to try this one but I am under MAC with Logic 8 so I have no VST support.... just AU.........there have been better times when both where running on Logic....but Apple always tries to do something special to find out that it is not an good idea to live on an island.
I hope that VST support will be back on Logic one day....