Mixerless Studio Survey

[Keyplayer]

I'm still using a desk for all of my projects, as I prefer the sound to the "In the Box" sound. But my desk tops out at 48K. So I'm going to need to build a system that will allow me to work on 96/192 projects.

Space is very tight in my studio. So going for a complete rebuild around an analog desk is prohibitive both fiscally and physically. So I have to think in terms of "In the Box" in order to accomdate this kind of work.

As such, I was wondering how many of you out there are using deskLESS systems and what you use to monitor your work. Moreover, are you really staying "In the Box?" By that I mean, are you monitoring on a stereo DAC and listening device, while ALL of the work is being performed by plugins and the mixdown is "rendered", or are you running stems via 8 to 24 channels of line mixer (which is apparently considered a deskLESS system now) and printing in real time, which requires an extra conversion? BTW, if we're SUPPOSED to try eeping the signal digital until it's printed on the final media, why don't most hardware manufacturers include digital I/O on their gear for direct interface without and additional DA/AD conversion?

In any case, I'd like to know the pros and cons of either method and what kind of gear you're using to facilitate this?

[cfuehrer]

At my studio we don't have a console at all. All mics come thru th tie lines and are patched into the pres then to comps (if needed) and patched in to PT either directly or via an Apogee converters. From PT we come back out inthe the Apogee DAC into the monitors. We use a control surface to mix with,

[Magnus]

I work "In the box" 99% of the time these days since I'm primarily a songwriter and producer. I use Nuendo with 2ch Apogee converters and 3 UAD-1 cards. When I'm done mixing, I render the stereo file in 32 Bits floating point format and it's ready to master.

What I like about my setup is that there is "Total recall" of all parameters. Something I need while working on more than one project at a time. Also the quality I'm getting by using UAD-1 plugs as well as other plugs, is excellent compared to what I've paid. If I'd spent the same amount on analogue hardware (mixer, compressors, eq's etc) I'd be using Mackie and Behringer stuff

Then there is the question about the "In the box" vs "Analogue summing" sound quality difference. Personally I'm not worried about doing it all in the box if you have a good digital clock. I've done lots of recordings and mixes using analogue mixers and I can't say that those mixes sound better than what I can do with my Nuendo system.

You do work in different ways but you just need to get used to a way of working and try to get the most out of the tools you have IMO.

/Magnus

[Aearth]

My mixer is packed away in a box since i've connected up to the Presonus Central Station.......works for me.


Nick

[enharmonic]

Keyplayer,

To answer your question about the digital I/O... good conversion would raise the price of just about any product by a few hundred dollars...and that's just for stereo.

That would be my guess. I'd hazard a guess that someone's doing it though. There's a market for anything if you're willing to pay for it

As for a mixerless studio, I am currently wrestling with this same dilema. I have considered any number of setups recently, and all i can tell you from reading, and reading, and then reading some more...is that there are about as many ways to work today as you can think of.

IF I decide to go with a control surface over a more traditional console, I will likely go with a Mackie Universal Control into Nuendo on a Mac, and put my money into some real-deal mic's, analog pre's, and compressors. IMHO, these three things never go out of style. Converters get better, consoles get smaller and more feature packed, even control surfaces get better (Mackie Universal being a good example w/ fader resolution)...but solid mic's, pre's, and compressors...heck...just take a look at how many people chase the vintage dragon...either through getting old pieces racked, or via the purchase of clones, or reissues. I don't see that changing.

Good luck. It looks like we're in the same boat.

[cdog]

I work all in the box all the time, I have a mackie control universal for transport and the occasional fader move I'd rather play by hand than draw in.

It doesn't look as impressive as an ICON, but it gets the job done.

Once you get sucked into 100% recall and no patching, its over.

As for summing boxes.... if you're having problem with your mix, its likely the summer, not the digital summing thats to blame.

If you want analog EQ or compression, get it going in. You can also always bounce your stereo mix through your favorite magic box if you need some extra glue at the end of your mix. I like the massive passive and the fatso for this purpose...

[Keyplayer]

What do you guys think of the MOTU 192 Converters? I was thinking of matching a pair of them with an Apogee Big Ben Clock. Whaddya think?

[Clueless]

Originally posted by Keyplayer
What do you guys think of the MOTU 192 Converters? I was thinking of matching a pair of them with an Apogee Big Ben Clock. Whaddya think?

Here's an answer you won't like...I love the HD192 (I have one), and I have an Apogee 800, but I sum to a Midas Verona console.

I'm just looking for the right time to ditch MOTU DP4.12(supposedly crappy summing, and certainly no plug-in delay compensation) and switch to Nuendo (supposedly not sucky summing, and certainly automatic delay compensation). Should I do it yesterday? Or never?

[Keyplayer]

Originally posted by Clueless
Here's an answer you won't like...I love the HD192 (I have one), and I have an Apogee 800, but I sum to a Midas Verona console.

I'm just looking for the right time to ditch MOTU DP4.12(supposedly crappy summing, and certainly no plug-in delay compensation) and switch to Nuendo (supposedly not sucky summing, and certainly automatic delay compensation). Should I do it yesterday? Or never?

Keyplayer: I'm already using Nuendo. I'm just using the converters as stand alone devices. I'll either render in Nuendo or run through a small analog desk, like a Mackie Onyx. At least that's the plan so far.

[jumpnyc]

I use a dangerous 2-bus for analog summing from Pro Tools HD clocked to a Lavry A/D. Monitoring through a CraneSong Avocet (arriving this week). Mixer moves with a mouse.

Mic-pres are patched in so I can patch different pre's through my Lavry Converters and through my distressor for light compression into PT.

All eq, compression, verb, effects done in pro tools. Total recal and no patching are a must in the quick and dirty world of new music production. Changing a level and outputting a new mix in under 15 minutes is the required speed of production with my clients.

I would love to have tons of outboard and tons of time to mix and tweak. Who's getting that kind of money anymore?